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 07/19/2010 04:37:15 PM · #1
Hi All.. Joined DPC a few months back and entered 2 Basic Editing challenges till now. Would like to become a member and post in Advanced Editing challenges. I went through the challenge rules, but wanted to clarify something.
If a photo qualifies for posting in Basic Editing, does it automatically qualify to be posted in Advanced/Expert Editing challenges too? coz the "You Must" category remains the same for all 3 (Excluding any “Extra Rules”).
 07/19/2010 04:39:22 PM · #2
Hi and welcome to the site, you are correct in your assumption as the rulesets build upon each other. Have a great time and good luck with your image.
 07/19/2010 05:19:02 PM · #3
Careful with this assumption. For the most part "legal in Basic means it's legal in Advanced" is a safe assumption, however there are uncommon instances where something that is legal in Basic is not legal in Advanced. That happens because the Basic Rules are process-based, meaning *anything* you can do with tools that are deemed legal means you have a legal result. The Advanced Rules are results-based, meaning that (in theory) all that matters is the result, not how you got there. So if you make radical, Basic-legal global changes to a photo in such a way that you removed some significant subject matter, for instance, the result is legal in Basic, but not legal in Advanced.

Welcome to the madhouse...
 07/19/2010 05:20:48 PM · #4
Originally posted by kirbic:
Careful with this assumption. For the most part "legal in Basic means it's legal in Advanced" is a safe assumption, however there are uncommon instances where something that is legal in Basic is not legal in Advanced. That happens because the Basic Rules are process-based, meaning *anything* you can do with tools that are deemed legal means you have a legal result. The Advanced Rules are results-based, meaning that (in theory) all that matters is the result, not how you got there. So if you make radical, Basic-legal global changes to a photo in such a way that you removed some significant subject matter, for instance, the result is legal in Basic, but not legal in Advanced.

Welcome to the madhouse...


Kirbic - Your statement does not appear to make any sense. Could you please provide a concrete example (actual example of photo that was DQ'd in advanced that would work in basic) of where this situation could possibly be the case.

Message edited by author 2010-07-19 17:22:03.
 07/19/2010 05:35:33 PM · #5
Originally posted by bassbone:
Kirbic - Your statement does not appear to make any sense. Could you please provide a concrete example (actual example of photo that was DQ'd in advanced that would work in basic) of where this situation could possibly be the case.


I wouldn't mind hearing an example, too, and I'm on SC :) I am having a hard time coming up with a concrete example of editing that would be legal in Basic but not in Advanced. I can't think of an example where that could be the case.
 07/19/2010 07:29:38 PM · #6
Originally posted by alanfreed:
Originally posted by bassbone:
Kirbic - Your statement does not appear to make any sense. Could you please provide a concrete example (actual example of photo that was DQ'd in advanced that would work in basic) of where this situation could possibly be the case.


I wouldn't mind hearing an example, too, and I'm on SC :) I am having a hard time coming up with a concrete example of editing that would be legal in Basic but not in Advanced. I can't think of an example where that could be the case.


I think what he's referring to is basic editing tends to be judged as a "tools based" ruleset and advance editing is "results based". Meaning, under basic editing if a tool is allowed (ex. adjustment layers set on normal blending) you can use the tool however you like even if it produces an extreme result. Under Advance editing you could still get DQed for using those tools if you push things too far. For example, using adjustment layers to turn a photograph into a 2D-like cartoon drawing.

Message edited by author 2010-07-19 19:30:58.
 07/19/2010 07:41:36 PM · #7
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by alanfreed:
Originally posted by bassbone:
Kirbic - Your statement does not appear to make any sense. Could you please provide a concrete example (actual example of photo that was DQ'd in advanced that would work in basic) of where this situation could possibly be the case.


I wouldn't mind hearing an example, too, and I'm on SC :) I am having a hard time coming up with a concrete example of editing that would be legal in Basic but not in Advanced. I can't think of an example where that could be the case.


I think what he's referring to is basic editing tends to be judged as a "tools based" ruleset and advance editing is "results based". Meaning, under basic editing if a tool is allowed (ex. adjustment layers set on normal blending) you can use the tool however you like even if it produces an extreme result. Under Advance editing you could still get DQed for using those tools if you push things too far. For example, using adjustment layers to turn a photograph into a 2D-like cartoon drawing.


Bingo.
Alan, we actually had one or two discussions about scenarios like this during my tenure on SC. Imaging you use a levels or curves adjustment to make dramatic changes that wind up obscuring large portions of the image. Under Basic, that's OK, but under Advanced, you could well be DQ'd for removing elements.
 07/19/2010 08:40:34 PM · #8
I'm confused too....

So...if you somehow were able to use a global curve adjustment to essentially remove a background, that would be legal in Basic but not in Advanced?
 07/19/2010 08:47:32 PM · #9
Originally posted by PGerst:
I'm confused too....

So...if you somehow were able to use a global curve adjustment to essentially remove a background, that would be legal in Basic but not in Advanced?


That's what Kirbic's suggesting, and he used to be SC himself, but I'm not aware of any precedent, any ruling that actually proves this point. I do know that some aspects of basic rules are no longer tool-based — specifically, the provision that allows such things as tone mapping and tyopaz "as long as an effect is not created", whatever that means...

I say "whatever that means" because as far as I know nobody's been DFQ'd for using Topaz or Tone Mapping in basic since that version of the rules was written up, but I've for sure seen some usage that *I* would have called "creating an effect", so who knows what the heck is happening now?

I think, in general, it's perfectly safe to say "anything that's basic legal is advanced legal", with the proviso that if you go WAY outside the box, regardless of the ruleset, all bets are off :-)

R.

Message edited by author 2010-07-19 20:48:00.
 07/19/2010 09:01:13 PM · #10
along the same lines, can lightroom do anything will DQ a basic editing challenge. since it cant create any masks, essentially everything it does happens to the whole pic.

although you can use a "paint brush" to focus the exposures, sharpness etc.
 07/19/2010 09:03:55 PM · #11
Originally posted by mike_311:
along the same lines, can lightroom do anything will DQ a basic editing challenge. since it cant create any masks, essentially everything it does happens to the whole pic.

although you can use a "paint brush" to focus the exposures, sharpness etc.


You can't use things like vignettes.
 07/19/2010 09:05:26 PM · #12
Originally posted by bassbone:
Originally posted by mike_311:
along the same lines, can lightroom do anything will DQ a basic editing challenge. since it cant create any masks, essentially everything it does happens to the whole pic.

although you can use a "paint brush" to focus the exposures, sharpness etc.


You can't use things like vignettes.


right, forgot about those. i almost added one to my last challenge entry.
 07/19/2010 09:09:23 PM · #13
Vignettes are easy to add by accident in Lightroom. A lot of the presets have them. Kinda funny since in a sense when you use a preset its quite like a global adjustment but what some of them do is quite selective like the vignette. My suggestion is to always understand exactly what a preset does before using it. (Especially third party ones)
 07/19/2010 09:13:21 PM · #14
Hmm...in thinking about this....and looking at past DQs...I'm wondering if the mention of "processed-based" and "results-based" would clear up certain ambiguities in the rules.
 07/19/2010 09:18:04 PM · #15
Hummm, I think I missed the "Rules Clarification".
 07/19/2010 09:59:15 PM · #16
Originally posted by PGerst:
I'm wondering if the mention of "processed-based" and "results-based" would clear up certain ambiguities in the rules.

It's not that simple. Both sets of rules have always included elements of "tool-based" and "results-based" restrictions.
 07/20/2010 12:06:06 AM · #17
Originally posted by scalvert:

It's not that simple. Both sets of rules have always included elements of "tool-based" and "results-based" restrictions.


Thanks everyone.

When you say tools-based and result-based, just for an e.g., lets say 'Noise' is a tool and it is allowed in Basic Editing no matter what the end result is. In advanced editing, I would still be able to use Noise, but the end-result of using Noise will have restrictions? even though I'm using the tool to make global adjustments? (Again, noise is just an eg.)
 07/20/2010 12:47:29 AM · #18
Originally posted by theraindew:
just for an e.g., lets say 'Noise' is a tool and it is allowed in Basic Editing no matter what the end result is. In advanced editing, I would still be able to use Noise, but the end-result of using Noise will have restrictions?

Technically yes, but only with an extreme application of noise. Since selective editing is not allowed in Basic, there isn't any rule against removing significant objects within the capture. You can darken the entire image to black or add noise to the point of oblivion and that would still likely be allowed in Basic, but obscuring prominent elements is not allowed in Advanced. Use noise to wipe out a detailed background or major element and you risk a DQ. People seldom go that far unless they're trying for a "brown" ribbon.
 07/20/2010 12:58:39 PM · #19
Originally posted by scalvert:

Technically yes, but only with an extreme application of noise. Since selective editing is not allowed in Basic, there isn't any rule against removing significant objects within the capture. You can darken the entire image to black or add noise to the point of oblivion and that would still likely be allowed in Basic, but obscuring prominent elements is not allowed in Advanced. Use noise to wipe out a detailed background or major element and you risk a DQ. People seldom go that far unless they're trying for a "brown" ribbon.


Thanks scalvert. That explains... I guess! Hope I don't DQed for something really silly. Thanks all again.
 07/20/2010 01:14:41 PM · #20
Does that mean there's no cropping or rotating allowed in advanced editing?
07/20/2010 01:16:44 PM · #21
Originally posted by NiallOTuama:
Does that mean there's no cropping or rotating allowed in advanced editing?


No. From the advanced ruleset:

You may:
...
* crop, rotate and resize your entry.
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