The Pledge: I will vote 6 for average - Join me

Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f2.8D

06/07/2010 07:42:57 PM · #151

Originally posted by FourPoint7:

i think this could be modified and simplified into...

i pledge to spend 5 seconds examining a photo before voting.

Ok I had to risk losing another 0.1 outta my already falling score, but this is worth a comment.

Perhaps you meant examining each picture for 4.7 seconds?? ;-)

David Ey

Nikon D80

06/07/2010 07:45:59 PM · #152

Don't worry Jeb. Nothings gonna change. Obama himself couldn't change the way dpc votes.

06/07/2010 07:49:15 PM · #153

Originally posted by coryboehne:

Clearly this has degenerated into me making a defense of my reasoning and methodology, and clearly the opposition has fairly well managed to hi-jack the thread.. Still, I feel there has been good discussion on the point, and hopefully that will make a positive difference

Actually, it's unfair to attack the people presenting the opposite side of the coin as hijacking the thread simply because you don't agree.

What you're suggesting is to adjust the voting structure upwards with no basis on the merits of the images themselves.

That is bordering on being a destructive influence for the people who have been here a while who are working on their process with the system in place as it is.

How is that reasonable, thoughtful, or fair?

06/07/2010 07:49:48 PM · #154

Originally posted by David Ey:

Don't worry Jeb. Nothings gonna change. Obama himself couldn't change the way dpc votes.

8>)

06/07/2010 07:50:10 PM · #155

Originally posted by David Ey:

Don't worry Jeb. Nothings gonna change. Obama himself couldn't change the way dpc votes.

For the last time, I am NOT Obama:-)

In fact someone recently compared me with Kramer..

06/07/2010 07:59:01 PM · #156

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Actually, it's unfair to attack the people presenting the opposite side of the coin as hijacking the thread simply because you don't agree

I opened an invite to join me in celebrating the images here @ DPC. I did not open an invite to cavil with me.

However, in any case, that's probably the most sensible thing you said. I do not want to discourage discussion, I would just prefer it if we could be a.. umm.. little less passionate about it.. For god sake I haven't suggested that we start eating children or anything.

FourPointX

Canon EOS-60D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

06/07/2010 08:02:10 PM · #157

well i learned a new word at least. cavil. very interesting.

i reiterate my earlier proposal. spend 5 seconds when voting. no more drive by voting. some people spend hours on a photo and we can't afford 5 seconds?

eta: or 4.7 seconds, as prash pointed out :D

Message edited by author 2010-06-07 20:03:25.

zxaar

06/07/2010 08:04:38 PM · #158

Originally posted by Prash:

Originally posted by zxaar:
This is the crux of whole thing. Let everyone be voting the way they like rather then trying to create an impression that somehow voting low is bad. It may be bad to one but may be alright to the one who is voting low.

In my opinion, everyone is free to vote as they like. There will never be one single way of voting. Because we, as individuals, see different good and bad things in an image. I showed a candid shot of mine to a friend and the first thing he noticed was how part of the subject's shirt was tucked out, and that made the image worth an extra half point for that, while I hadn't even considered that:-)

And to be clear, and on the record, in this thread, all along, I have been saying that everyone is free to vote as they like. I am nobody (not nobody;-) to question someone's voting etiquette. As I said before, that is too personal a thing to each member.

I repeat: I have a camera in hand.. not a torch (like Art Roflmao). I am here to shoot (with a camera), not burn villages (like Ken;-) or fight. I have plenty other people to fight with and reasons to fight for:-)

Again: Happy DPCing!

ETA: Falling back to what I mentioned about statistics, I still stick to the fact that a 'pure shift' in probability distribution function curve of votes from a given member does not and will not change the outcome of an event based on that distribution. You may argue all you want. But what's proven, is proven;-)

Probably we both are saying the same thing, let people vote the way they want to.

06/07/2010 08:14:10 PM · #159

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by coryboehne:
Now I think the results should be more of a bell curve starting at 4 and going to 10, leaving the peak (average) at about 7.5 or so....

Except for one thing.....regardless of what you think, the scale *IS* 1 through 10.

Originally posted by coryboehne:
I am definitely saying that a 4 is the lowest score I will give out without some really, really, unbelievably, undeniably good reason...

So what you're saying here is the heck with the system that's been here like this for over 1000 challenges, tens of thousands of voters, and eight years?

You're going to vote your way and the heck with how it's structured in order to be reasonable and fair to all those people, over all this time, through all those challenges?

Who are you, and what makes you think that you have the answer to this problem which doesn't exist?

Originally posted by coryboehne:
So, now after examining my habits, and my feelings and beliefs, the ethics and the math, I can quite conclusively say that for me, in order to make my votes match my true appreciation, I had to move my "average" up the scale a bit..

Bravo! Well done! Nicely thought!

But what makes you think that others haven't reached their own similar conclusions?

Do you really think that you're smarter than the next guy? That your limited experience here is somehow more knowledge rich than so many others before you? Especially those that have been here for a long time and are successful with the work they do, not only as photographers, but as those who review images, vote and comment.....do you think you've come up with something that they all need to adopt, something that has never occurred to anyone before you?

What about the ratio from here on out? If everybody did what you propose, then their previous history is in error......or the voting from here on out will be in error.

Can we opt out? I've entered 222 challenges with the way it's been. I don't want people to all of sudden vote my score up a point. How can I measure my growth against the process that it's gone through over the past four years from here on if my average starts a steady, but gradual climb and I have to suspect that it's because of an artificial shift in voting instead of my own improvement?

Might I suggest that you take a good hard look at what Louis is saying, stop taking it as a personal affront, and see the sense and logic of it. Just the fact that you're so aggressively arguing against what he's saying kind of indicates that he's pointing out some things that although you may not agree with them, are unerringly true.

So, personal attacks huh? You really should think before posting.

I'll still respond as best I can to such hysteria..

I'm not suggesting that there is anything wrong with the system.. I am telling you that there was something wrong with my system.

Despite your views, yes, I am intelligent, but let's not get in a pissing match about who has what degree with what GPA from where and in what... It's pointless isn't it? Just like arguing with me about how I feel about my voting behaviors.. And I'm NOT wrong to talk about it either.. Nor am I wrong to encourage others to take a look at what they've been up to.

Oh and as far as "changing what has worked.." blah, blah, old guard crap... I'm trying as best as I can tell to vote in the original spirit of this site.. I think your anger has blinded you to the true nature of this place.

"Can we opt out??" - Jesus man, you act like I'm the supreme ruler of DPC passing down a ruling to my subjects.. You are now, as you have always been, to vote as you see fit.. But then since this has been said no less than ten times before in this thread, and you still haven't gotten that point, I have no idea why I would think that writing it again here would make any difference..

So, basically carry on with the way you see fit to do things.. Clearly, for you, a re-examination of your beliefs is most unwelcome. And if you're so damned concerned about if you're improving, I would strongly suggest paying attention to some metric other than the score... We all know that the score is completely volatile, overall % ranking is much more indicative of progress..

Olympus OM-D E-M5 Mark III

06/07/2010 08:35:34 PM · #160

Originally posted by FourPoint7:

I hereby pronounce this the

FourPoint7 rating rule. Feel free to take credit for it in your biography before someone at Apple or Google submit a new patent with an algorithm named that;-)

Yo_Spiff

Olympus 12-100mm f/4.0 M.Zuiko ED IS PRO

06/07/2010 08:43:48 PM · #161

I think I need to point something out that is overlooked in the concern about overall average scores. I submit two voting breakdowns from recent challenge entries:

One of them was a dead even 5.00, while the other one looks to have done even worse, at 4.84.

A closer look however shows us differently:
Exhibit A averaged 5.00, with a huge spike in the 5's (More than twice any other vote received) and a mediocre commenter's average.

The lower scoring entry received more 6's than any other vote, a nice bushel of 7's, 2 faves, and a commenter's average of 8.42! What brought it down was that a large number of people also disliked it. This entry found it's target audience and they loved it.

I would prefer the second one any day of the week. (Unfortunately, mine was the first one!) My point is, that the average score is not as important as you may think. There are many other factors that you need to consider to determine if you nailed it, or if it was truly "meh" material.

zxaar

06/07/2010 08:49:57 PM · #162

Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:

I would prefer the second one any day of the week. (Unfortunately, mine was the first one!) My point is, that the average score is not as important as you may think. There are many other factors that you need to consider to determine if you nailed it, or if it was truly "meh" material.

Good point.

06/07/2010 08:52:48 PM · #163

We need more people like you on DPC who talk with facts and logic:-)!

Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:

I think I need to point something out that is overlooked in the concern about overall average scores. I submit two voting breakdowns from recent challenge entries:

One of them was a dead even 5.00, while the other one looks to have done even worse, at 4.84.

A closer look however shows us differently:
Exhibit A averaged 5.00, with a huge spike in the 5's (More than twice any other vote received) and a mediocre commenter's average.

The lower scoring entry received more 6's than any other vote, a nice bushel of 7's, 2 faves, and a commenter's average of 8.42! What brought it down was that a large number of people also disliked it. This entry found it's target audience and they loved it.

I would prefer the second one any day of the week. (Unfortunately, mine was the first one!) My point is, that the average score is not as important as you may think. There are many other factors that you need to consider to determine if you nailed it, or if it was truly "meh" material.

06/07/2010 09:01:55 PM · #164

Originally posted by coryboehne:

So, basically carry on with the way you see fit to do things.. Clearly, for you, a re-examination of your beliefs is most unwelcome. And if you're so damned concerned about if you're improving, I would strongly suggest paying attention to some metric other than the score... We all know that the score is completely volatile, overall % ranking is much more indicative of progress..

Oh.......I got news for ya......I re-examined the way I vote, comment, shoot, think, and feel about my photography at least a half dozen times in the four years I've been here. I was doing it way before you came along and thought you could reinvent the wheel.

You seem to have entirely missed the point which was that for some odd reason you seem to think there's something wrong with the way others vote or you wouldn't have entitled the thread so.

Oh.....and I never said you weren't intelligent, I merely asked you why you assume that your line of thought hasn't been already discussed ad infinitum in the forums over the last eight years.

Have a good life. Whatever it is that you think, it is what it is. Since you have no interest whatsoever from hearing from multiple different people with way more experience here than you, what's the point of even trying to inject a little sense?

Maybe you should try it the way it works, get a little understanding and experience with the way the site is before you decide it needs changed.

I thought that possibly that you were interested in what some people who have been here al little while and might share their views with you, but obviously I, and others, were mistaken.

Sony FE 200-600mm f/5.6-6.3 G OSS

06/07/2010 09:14:23 PM · #165

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by coryboehne:
So, basically carry on with the way you see fit to do things.. Clearly, for you, a re-examination of your beliefs is most unwelcome. And if you're so damned concerned about if you're improving, I would strongly suggest paying attention to some metric other than the score... We all know that the score is completely volatile, overall % ranking is much more indicative of progress..

Oh.......I got news for ya......I re-examined the way I vote, comment, shoot, think, and feel about my photography at least a half dozen times in the four years I've been here. I was doing it way before you came along and thought you could reinvent the wheel.

You seem to have entirely missed the point which was that for some odd reason you seem to think there's something wrong with the way others vote or you wouldn't have entitled the thread so.

Oh.....and I never said you weren't intelligent, I merely asked you why you assume that your line of thought hasn't been already discussed ad infinitum in the forums over the last eight years.

Have a good life. Whatever it is that you think, it is what it is. Since you have no interest whatsoever from hearing from multiple different people with way more experience here than you, what's the point of even trying to inject a little sense?

Maybe you should try it the way it works, get a little understanding and experience with the way the site is before you decide it needs changed.

I thought that possibly that you were interested in what some people who have been here al little while and might share their views with you, but obviously I, and others, were mistaken.

Boy do you have the wrong idea about me.. I love learning, and as a matter of a fact, this whole fiasco is somewhat inspired by "older wiser" members who've been here much longer than myself..

But, damn, do you really need to attack me on seven different fronts simply because you don't agree with what I am doing?

vawendy

Sony Alpha 1

06/07/2010 09:24:02 PM · #166

Lighten up, people! He made a suggestion. For those of you who are tired of people trying to change how you vote, STOP READING THESE THREADS! Some people found his point to be valid and interesting, and some people were intrigued and wanted to give it a chance. Many of you say you've already examined your voting patterns, and one even said they tried something similar and went back to the old way. You've been introspective enough to think things through and experiment -- others haven't. He isn't talking to those who have thought things through in depth and discovered the perfect way to vote. He's talking to people who may not have thought much about the whole voting process, averages, etc.

He made a suggestion. Just like you have the right to ignore it and do what you want, others have a right to think it's an interesting suggestion. He is not forcing anyone to do anything. He made a suggestion.

Message edited by author 2010-06-07 21:24:41.

06/07/2010 09:34:47 PM · #167

Originally posted by vawendy:

For those of you who are tired of people trying to change how you vote, STOP READING THESE THREADS!

*Grin*.. I tend to think of these threads as philosophical discussions.. And, unfortunately, as I'm sure has happened throughout history, people often get angry about philosophy, for a variety of reasons.. I'm not too worried about it... Clearly, people are angry, so this must be important :)

zxaar

06/07/2010 09:43:33 PM · #168

Originally posted by coryboehne:

Originally posted by vawendy:
For those of you who are tired of people trying to change how you vote, STOP READING THESE THREADS!

*Grin*.. I tend to think of these threads as philosophical discussions.. And, unfortunately, as I'm sure has happened throughout history, people often get angry about philosophy, for a variety of reasons.. I'm not too worried about it... Clearly, people are angry, so this must be important :)

I think it is good idea to put forward what you think. We may agree or not is another matter but ideas count.

06/07/2010 09:48:15 PM · #169

Originally posted by coryboehne:

Boy do you have the wrong idea about me.. I love learning, and as a matter of a fact, this whole fiasco is somewhat inspired by "older wiser" members who've been here much longer than myself..

Then show that you're learning, and do something constructive instead of announcing that you're going to arbitrarily change how you vote and ask people to join you. I don't have any particular thoughts about you one way or the other.......I'm just puzzled as to why you accuse everyone who makes a suggestion to you of attacking you. I'm guessing it must be some kind of unwillingness to consider any other point of view. You completely blew off Louis, who is prolly one of the most insightful people as to how things work on this site. That was just dumb.

Originally posted by coryboehne:

But, damn, do you really need to attack me on seven different fronts simply because you don't agree with what I am doing?

Trust me, I haven't remotely attacked you......ask anyone. I, and others have merely tried to get you to try and see that there are major flaws in your reasoning and methods. I don't give a rat's ass what you do; it won't affect me in the slightest. If you refuse to consider what the people who have offered their insight from their years of experience HERE, in THIS SYSTEM, then it will take you a very long time to figure out how it works.

Take a few hours some day/night/weekend/whatever, and read through the countless threads on this subject and then maybe you'll understand a little better what some of us are trying to impart. Do whatever you like, but don't try to drag anyone else into it if you won't consider the wisdom of people who have been in the game for ever so much longer than you, who have delighted in it, and reaped the benefits of it in spades.

06/07/2010 10:15:09 PM · #170

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by coryboehne:
Boy do you have the wrong idea about me.. I love learning, and as a matter of a fact, this whole fiasco is somewhat inspired by "older wiser" members who've been here much longer than myself..

Then show that you're learning, and do something constructive instead of announcing that you're going to arbitrarily change how you vote and ask people to join you. I don't have any particular thoughts about you one way or the other.......I'm just puzzled as to why you accuse everyone who makes a suggestion to you of attacking you. I'm guessing it must be some kind of unwillingness to consider any other point of view. You completely blew off Louis, who is prolly one of the most insightful people as to how things work on this site. That was just dumb.

Originally posted by coryboehne:
But, damn, do you really need to attack me on seven different fronts simply because you don't agree with what I am doing?

Trust me, I haven't remotely attacked you......ask anyone. I, and others have merely tried to get you to try and see that there are major flaws in your reasoning and methods. I don't give a rat's ass what you do; it won't affect me in the slightest. If you refuse to consider what the people who have offered their insight from their years of experience HERE, in THIS SYSTEM, then it will take you a very long time to figure out how it works.

Take a few hours some day/night/weekend/whatever, and read through the countless threads on this subject and then maybe you'll understand a little better what some of us are trying to impart. Do whatever you like, but don't try to drag anyone else into it if you won't consider the wisdom of people who have been in the game for ever so much longer than you, who have delighted in it, and reaped the benefits of it in spades.

I do listen... I've read every post here carefully, many more than once.. But just because they feel that way doesn't mean I agree. And I've never said they were wrong.. But quite frankly, there was some pretty bad reasons introduced against this, many of which were completely inaccurate and what I saw as an attempt to discredit what I was saying..

I won't bore you with too many details, but I think the most popular example would be the "you're voting without merit" or the "this would cause chaos with the results" or the "you're punishing those who you skip in voting" all of which I've dealt with. So, yes, I do tend to blow off things that seem to be hype and red herring arguments.. Rightfully so I think.

As for the wisdom, I didn't see anyone suggesting much wisdom, rather I saw them attacking my ideas.. I'm ok with people questioning my ideas, and presenting their own ideas... I never accused anyone who presented an idea of attacking me... I did however levy that charge against those who's contribution was nothing more than a pedantic criticism of my thoughts and actions. I don't really care for it too much when all someone has to contribute is telling me how wrong I am, but not offering any real substantive wisdom or facts..

06/07/2010 10:18:45 PM · #171

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Take a few hours some day/night/weekend/whatever, and read through the countless threads on this subject and then maybe you'll understand a little better what some of us are trying to impart. Do whatever you like, but don't try to drag anyone else into it if you won't consider the wisdom of people who have been in the game for ever so much longer than you, who have delighted in it, and reaped the benefits of it in spades.

And on this point.. Surprise! I have! And I do understand what you are trying to impart.. A sense of smug superiority. That doesn't however, make you right. Oh, and I have benefited hugely during my time here... And I can tell you it wasn't because of the 1's 2's 3's and 4's.... The 5's I pay pretty close attention to as they tell me I'm lacking, but the person took my work seriously... So, no, I really don't think your implication that this will disrupt the learning and betterment of all of us here @ DPC is valid or substantiated..

ETA: It must be made clear that my opinion on this subject, or any other, does not in any way make you wrong either... So don't think I'm telling you that you are wrong, and that I am right... I'm not.. You're not..

Message edited by author 2010-06-07 22:51:16.

06/07/2010 10:45:31 PM · #172

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

So what you're saying here is the heck with the system that's been here like this for over 1000 challenges, tens of thousands of voters, and eight years?

You're going to vote your way and the heck with how it's structured in order to be reasonable and fair to all those people, over all this time, through all those challenges?

Who are you, and what makes you think that you have the answer to this problem which doesn't exist?

Do you really think that you're smarter than the next guy?

coryboehne: Listen up. It is not bad to come up with an idea and discuss it openly. But it is wise to realize the point when there is a fundamental disconnect with someone on that idea, and stop discussing it immediately to save energy and time for positive tasks.

NikonJeb: In general, you do speak from years of wisdom and make sense. However, in all fairness, reflect a bit back upon yourself when I ask you this question, intentionally, to make a point:

Who are you, and what makes you think Cory, I, or any relatively newcomer to DPC will listen to you with that tone that you carry?

Do you really think you are smarter than the next guy?

This is probably the third time I am repeating the same thing again and again: you have a wealth of knowledge. But it is useless with that tone. Honest to God, I wouldn't want to learn a thing from you (and I know you really are a 100 times better photographer than I am, considering DPC scores as a metric), even if you were the king of photography.

Now, based upon a fair observation, let me also put some other senior members into context.

YoSpiff,

Louis,

vawendy,

Bear_Music, and countless others, when they give their inputs to the forums, are heard, considered, discussed with. Have you ever looked back into your threads and seen any newbie positively appreciating having a healthy conversation with you?

So before coming in such an aggressive tone and trying to shoot down a newbie who, God forbid, has an idea that doesn't agree with your thought process, I highly recommend learning yourself some grace and respectability from other senior members. And if think that goes against your ego to take a suggestion from someone younger at DPC than you are, perhaps you can start ignoring such threads and save us all the pain.

In summary, after this thread, and in your own words, and I quote verbatim, I don't give a rat's ass what you do; it won't affect me in the slightest.

I rest my case. Now go ahead and scream, curse, or point fingers, all you want.

Tamron 16-300mm Di II VC PZD MACRO w/Canon Nikon mount

06/07/2010 10:49:50 PM · #173

Originally posted by Prash:

.. Sorry Prash, you're clearly right about that.. I'm afraid that I too am all too much of a caviller at times....

JulietNN

Canon EOS R7

06/07/2010 11:19:47 PM · #174

Everyone is entitled to what they think is right and their way. Anyone and everyone can say what they like about something as it is their right. BUT

Jeb, you really do come across as attacking, you are getting the responses you are getting become others feel the need to fight and defend what they believe in, because they feel attacked by you and your constant stabbing point of view and they are desperate for you to see another point of view. To comprehend a little insight as to what and how and why they feel/do the things they do.

There is frustration on both sides. You see things black and white , someone else on this thread see's it grey and gray.