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06/06/2010 08:21:49 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by PGerst:
Why?
Originally posted by coryboehne:
They could, but that would be a damn poor showing of appreciation.. |
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Seriously? Why? ...
Because score is directly equivalent to your appreciation of the photograph, in the end the technical details, subject, etc,etc,etc only affect your appreciation.. The end score that you give is an indicator of that appreciation..
Or at least that's how it is for me.. I couldn't give a photo that I found boring a 10 no matter how shiny,sharp,detailed,etc.etc. And I couldn't give a 10 to a photo that I found absolutely fascinating if it lacked any of the basic competencies (although sometimes we need to appreciate that the technical have been ignored quite intentionally.)
In any case, the effect should be that a photo is scored based upon overall appreciation, no matter what the rubric that defines up your appreciation looks like... |
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06/06/2010 08:24:48 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by chaimelle:
If an average shot "should" end up with a 5.5 yet everyone gave it a 6, that would cause the score of an average shot to be over 5.5. It will still be an average shot regardless of what the final score received is... For me, the idea is to eventually move beyond average, and low votes help me realize I still need to improve. (Of course, comments would help, but there aren't as many thanks to those who complain when voters give their actual opinions.) |
Oh, don't worry, this thread will miss far more than 50% of the voters... therefore everyone who reads this could likely vote a 7 for average, and then the score for an "average" photograph would probably move close to the 5.5 mark...
As it is? Very few will do much, and the few who do anything at all will only increase their enjoyment and generate a bit more good will around here... |
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06/06/2010 08:27:12 PM · #53 |
You only answered my "why" question as it pertains to yourself. I think the greater majority of people here see the appreciation in the comments they receive. In fact, the whole side challenge concept is not based on 1, 2, 3, but on the comments that come back.
Check those out, you'll see what is appreciation is there. The score, is sometimes random, sometimes calculated, sometimes thoroughly thought through, and is all the times a personal measure.
Comments are the only true outward display of appreciation. To further comment on what Peter said in an earlier post, a 3 or and 8 does nothing for me. A 3 with a comment of what they disliked and an 8 with a comment of what they liked is far more powerful than the score alone.
Originally posted by coryboehne:
Because score is directly equivalent to your appreciation of the photograph, in the end the technical details, subject, etc,etc,etc only affect your appreciation.. The end score that you give is an indicator of that appreciation..
Or at least that's how it is for me.. I couldn't give a photo that I found boring a 10 no matter how shiny,sharp,detailed,etc.etc. And I couldn't give a 10 to a photo that I found absolutely fascinating if it lacked any of the basic competencies (although sometimes we need to appreciate that the technical have been ignored quite intentionally.)
In any case, the effect should be that a photo is scored based upon overall appreciation, no matter what the rubric that defines up your appreciation looks like... |
Message edited by author 2010-06-06 20:27:49. |
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06/06/2010 08:32:56 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by PGerst:
You only answered my "why" question as it pertains to yourself. I think the greater majority of people here see the appreciation in the comments they receive. In fact, the whole side challenge concept is not based on 1, 2, 3, but on the comments that come back.
Check those out, you'll see what is appreciation is there. The score, is sometimes random, sometimes calculated, sometimes thoroughly thought through, and is all the times a personal measure.
Comments are the only true outward display of appreciation. To further comment on what Peter said in an earlier post, a 3 or and 8 does nothing for me. A 3 with a comment of what they disliked and an 8 with a comment of what they liked is far more powerful than the score alone.
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I agree with almost everything you said.. With the exception that what I said should apply only to myself.. I do feel score is one of our measures of appreciation.. You admit that it is a "personal measure", I agree very much that it is a personal measure... You could call it 'subjective', and that's what I mean about appreciation, it's a measure of your personal appreciation.. I don't quite see why you are disagreeing with me on this point..
As for the rest? God I hope none of my scores were "random"... And I do also feel that comments are the biggest form of appreciation, but that in no way discounts the appreciative value of our votes... |
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06/06/2010 11:36:08 PM · #55 |
Cory,
that was an interesting post and it got me thinking. Thanks for framing the issue so lucidly. I decided to try shifting my "average" score to a 6 for the challenge ending tonight, which I had not yet voted on, and this is the result:
Originally posted by Stats:
You have rated 115 of 115 images (100%) in this challenge.
You have given an average score of 5.9043. |
Now this might not look like much to some of y'all, but MY average score given has been in the 5.1 range, lifetime.
And it feels good, too. I'm happy I did it. Nothing has changed, relatively, but my scores are a fraction more likely to bring a smile to someone's face now :-)
R.
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06/07/2010 12:45:30 AM · #56 |
Well, it's interesting that people seem more concerned with artificially inflating the scores they give in an effort to appear to be nicer or whatever, but I make no apologies for contending that that's a weak approach that dilutes the quality of images here, and thwarts the weaker photographers' progress and desire to improve. Either this is a photography contest, or it is not; either one is honest and admits that there are photos during the contests that do not deserve anything above a five, or it is all for moot. I, and everyone else, reserve the right to use the full scale while voting and not feel bad about it, or be called out about it, or accused of not "getting" your lofty intentions, or whatever. Even if my average score was 3, that would be irrelevant, and it would be in poor form for you to point it out. But thanks for the back-handed way of calling me a dick, coryboehne.
I also take umbrage at the suggestion that I'm less than helpful, since I'm one of the few persons on this site that enjoys giving lengthy comments during the challenge that go beyond "that's cool", and other such irrelevancies. I invite you to read the comments I made on the "self portrait" challenge after Tuesday, all written before today. Many of my comments require real considered viewing of the photos I choose to comment on. I'm proud of them, thank you very much.
What's most curious is that nobody really wants to hear the full spectrum of opinion. If it doesn't sound like back-stroking, and it doesn't stoke egos, then it's dismissed as mean-spirited, no matter how sincere it is. Frankly, that's more than just a tad childish.
PS: I'm also one of the few who regularly puts his vote at the end of any comment, and I was careful to do so with each comment in the self-portrait challenge. Feel free to tear me a new one after rollover, if it'll make you feel better.
Message edited by author 2010-06-07 00:55:30. |
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06/07/2010 12:48:43 AM · #57 |
Louis,
In my case, I have felt for quite a while that my scores were artificially DEflated, and I've been uncomfortable with it, but I wanted to be consistent. Now, by shifting my "average" score from 5 to 6, I have a scoring profile that's more defensible, and I really don't think it's inflating much at all, except some mid-range scores. The top end looks about the same as it always has... But it feels more right to me, essentially, so that's good.
R.
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06/07/2010 01:10:33 AM · #58 |
Originally posted by Louis:
I also take umbrage at the suggestion that I'm less than helpful, since I'm one of the few persons on this site that enjoys giving lengthy comments during the challenge that go beyond "that's cool", and other such irrelevancies. |
I stand corrected. I suppose I haven't been the recipient of many of those more helpful ones. |
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06/07/2010 01:23:51 AM · #59 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Originally posted by Louis:
I also take umbrage at the suggestion that I'm less than helpful, since I'm one of the few persons on this site that enjoys giving lengthy comments during the challenge that go beyond "that's cool", and other such irrelevancies. |
I stand corrected. I suppose I haven't been the recipient of many of those more helpful ones. |
how about next time you participate in challenge let him know about your entry in advance. He definitely did not say that he commented 100%. So it is likely he missed it.
Or may be you received comments from him and you did not think they were useful?? |
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06/07/2010 01:29:05 AM · #60 |
 6.2~6.3
 5.8~6.1
 6.3~6.5
Message edited by author 2010-06-07 01:33:59. |
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06/07/2010 01:46:42 AM · #61 |
a scale of 1 to 10.....the half way point being 5....an average photo in my mind is a middle of the scale shot. Sorry but I am sticking with average shots getting a 5.
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06/07/2010 02:09:51 AM · #62 |
Originally posted by ShutterPug:
a scale of 1 to 10.....the half way point being 5....an average photo in my mind is a middle of the scale shot. Sorry but I am sticking with average shots getting a 5. |
But, Linda...
5.5 is the average on a scale of 1 to 10. That's the whole PROBLEM. You cannot give an average number in DPC; the closest you can get is "slightly below average" or "slightly above average"...
4 numbers, 1,2,3,4, are worse than 5. 5 numbers, 6,7,8,9,10, are better than 5. See?
R.
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06/07/2010 02:12:54 AM · #63 |
Avg Vote Cast: 6.2142
Avg Vote Received: 4.9476
You can quickly summarize a person's approach to DPC by looking at their "Avg Vote Cast" especially in light of their "Avg Vote Received". There is an inverse relationship between these numbers usually. |
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06/07/2010 02:16:45 AM · #64 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Well, it's interesting that people seem more concerned with artificially inflating the scores they give in an effort to appear to be nicer or whatever, but I make no apologies for contending that that's a weak approach that dilutes the quality of images here, and thwarts the weaker photographers' progress and desire to improve. Either this is a photography contest, or it is not; either one is honest and admits that there are photos during the contests that do not deserve anything above a five, or it is all for moot. I, and everyone else, reserve the right to use the full scale while voting and not feel bad about it, or be called out about it, or accused of not "getting" your lofty intentions, or whatever. Even if my average score was 3, that would be irrelevant, and it would be in poor form for you to point it out. But thanks for the back-handed way of calling me a dick, coryboehne.
I also take umbrage at the suggestion that I'm less than helpful, since I'm one of the few persons on this site that enjoys giving lengthy comments during the challenge that go beyond "that's cool", and other such irrelevancies. I invite you to read the comments I made on the "self portrait" challenge after Tuesday, all written before today. Many of my comments require real considered viewing of the photos I choose to comment on. I'm proud of them, thank you very much.
What's most curious is that nobody really wants to hear the full spectrum of opinion. If it doesn't sound like back-stroking, and it doesn't stoke egos, then it's dismissed as mean-spirited, no matter how sincere it is. Frankly, that's more than just a tad childish.
PS: I'm also one of the few who regularly puts his vote at the end of any comment, and I was careful to do so with each comment in the self-portrait challenge. Feel free to tear me a new one after rollover, if it'll make you feel better. |
All I have to say is ":-|" (look familiar louis?)
Still you do have me on the backhandedly calling you a dick.. Yes, although I think your statistics and past performance speaks otherwise(which I also mentioned, mind you..), I do think your general attitude makes you seem like a bit of a dick....
In any case, you still have my respect, as you are a wonderful photographer, I would never disagree with your voting choices, however you seem to, quite adamantly, disagree with mine...
Sorry, but I feel this is how I should be voting... Some people will agree, others will disagree... That's up to you... And quite frankly, I am very pleased to have you as my nemesis, as in western culture we really do appreciate a dichotomy...
Cheers Louis... Keep voting low, you can bet I won't..
Message edited by author 2010-06-07 02:44:17. |
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06/07/2010 02:18:54 AM · #65 |
Originally posted by charliebaker:
Avg Vote Cast: 6.2142
Avg Vote Received: 4.9476
You can quickly summarize a person's approach to DPC by looking at their "Avg Vote Cast" especially in light of their "Avg Vote Received". There is an inverse relationship between these numbers usually. |
Quite frankly, I love you  charliebaker... You exemplify the spirit of giving... You have been added to my favorite photographers list for this achievement...
I encourage everyone who reads this absolutely amazing statistic to add charliebaker as a favorite... :) Thanks David!!! |
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06/07/2010 02:42:14 AM · #66 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Cory,
that was an interesting post and it got me thinking. Thanks for framing the issue so lucidly. I decided to try shifting my "average" score to a 6 for the challenge ending tonight, which I had not yet voted on, and this is the result:
Originally posted by Stats:
You have rated 115 of 115 images (100%) in this challenge.
You have given an average score of 5.9043. |
Now this might not look like much to some of y'all, but MY average score given has been in the 5.1 range, lifetime.
And it feels good, too. I'm happy I did it. Nothing has changed, relatively, but my scores are a fraction more likely to bring a smile to someone's face now :-)
R. |
This somehow feels like a wonderful moment to me. You know how much I respect you Robert, and you are one of my biggest inspirations... I hope one day we'll meet up and I can express my thanks through my piss poor sign language :)
Cheers.. |
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06/07/2010 02:48:48 AM · #67 |
I agree 100% with these scores... Now considering what beautiful work is commonly produced today, the average, relatively, should be an 8... Why isn't the average winner higher than it was years ago, when these photos scored an 8.5+???
Message edited by author 2010-06-07 02:49:23. |
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06/07/2010 05:49:07 AM · #68 |
Excellent stuff in the HDR challenge..
You have rated 160 of 160 images (100%) in this challenge.
You have commented on 70 of 160 images (44%) in this challenge.
You have given an average score of 7.1438. |
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06/07/2010 06:32:27 AM · #69 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Well, it's interesting that people seem more concerned with artificially inflating the scores they give in an effort to appear to be nicer or whatever, but I make no apologies for contending that that's a weak approach that dilutes the quality of images here, and thwarts the weaker photographers' progress and desire to improve. Either this is a photography contest, or it is not; either one is honest and admits that there are photos during the contests that do not deserve anything above a five, or it is all for moot. I, and everyone else, reserve the right to use the full scale while voting and not feel bad about it, or be called out about it, or accused of not "getting" your lofty intentions, or whatever. Even if my average score was 3, that would be irrelevant, and it would be in poor form for you to point it out. But thanks for the back-handed way of calling me a dick, coryboehne.
I also take umbrage at the suggestion that I'm less than helpful, since I'm one of the few persons on this site that enjoys giving lengthy comments during the challenge that go beyond "that's cool", and other such irrelevancies. I invite you to read the comments I made on the "self portrait" challenge after Tuesday, all written before today. Many of my comments require real considered viewing of the photos I choose to comment on. I'm proud of them, thank you very much.
What's most curious is that nobody really wants to hear the full spectrum of opinion. If it doesn't sound like back-stroking, and it doesn't stoke egos, then it's dismissed as mean-spirited, no matter how sincere it is. Frankly, that's more than just a tad childish.
PS: I'm also one of the few who regularly puts his vote at the end of any comment, and I was careful to do so with each comment in the self-portrait challenge. Feel free to tear me a new one after rollover, if it'll make you feel better. |
I can understand you taking umbrage at the "less than helpful" suggestion. It's easy to assume someone's not helpful if you haven't been a direct recipient of said help. That was a bad assumption, and they should have looked through your comments/posts before jumping to any conclusions.
However, this thread is not about getting people to artificially inflate their scores. This is simply discussing the math. Many people consider 5 to be the average score between 1 and 10. It's not. It's 5.5. So if you are giving an image a 5, you're saying it's a slightly below average picture. If that's what you believe, then it is a fair score! There are many people who think that the work on this site is above average, and they may not have thought through the math. From what I understand, that was the reason for this thread.
Considering the fact that the majority of the people taking my database classes didn't know the correct answer to 2+2*3, it's worth discussing math every once in awhile. (8, btw)
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06/07/2010 08:14:24 AM · #70 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
Considering the fact that the majority of the people taking my database classes didn't know the correct answer to 2+2*3, it's worth discussing math every once in awhile. (8, btw) |
it depends, for a language that give precedence to operator * over + it is 8 for the language that give precedence to + it would be 12.
Though in normal case i can not think of any language that give preference to + over * , it is not impossible to come up with one such. Further it might get complicated in cases involving - (instead of +).
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06/07/2010 08:20:21 AM · #71 |
But mathematical order dictates precedence of * over +. When teaching spreadsheet and database programs, I found that 70-80% of all people in my class had forgotten mathematical order. Thus they'd put a calculation of 2+2*3 in excel or access and couldn't figure out why they'd get an answer of 8.
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06/07/2010 08:37:20 AM · #72 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
But mathematical order dictates precedence of * over +. When teaching spreadsheet and database programs, I found that 70-80% of all people in my class had forgotten mathematical order. Thus they'd put a calculation of 2+2*3 in excel or access and couldn't figure out why they'd get an answer of 8. |
yepp, this is why i could not think of any. But it is good practice to keep paranthesis just to avoid confusion. It may not be the best way but it is safe.
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06/07/2010 12:10:35 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by coryboehne:
All I have to say is ":-|" (look familiar louis?) |
Yeah. You've just revealed your self portrait entry to me, and perhaps everyone else reading this thread. Bad form.
If an opposite opinion is only indicative of being a dick, well, I guess I'm just a dick then. Whatever. Like I said, pretty childish.
I don't vote low. I vote fair. I am as happy to give a four as a nine. I am also happy to explain why I did so, which I often do. My self-portrait comments will bear that out, and I urge you to read all of them, not just the cheeky one you got from me, once voting is over. Perhaps they will be instructive. Note they were all given before this thread was started.
Oh, and don't flatter yourself -- you're not my nemesis. I haven't even seen you in the god threads in Rant. :P |
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06/07/2010 12:12:34 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by coryboehne:
All I have to say is ":-|" (look familiar louis?) |
Yeah. You've just revealed your self portrait entry to me, and perhaps everyone else reading this thread. Bad form.
If an opposite opinion is only indicative of being a dick, well, I guess I'm just a dick then. Whatever. Like I said, pretty childish.
I don't vote low. I vote fair. I am as happy to give a four as a nine. I am also happy to explain why I did so, which I often do. My self-portrait comments will bear that out, and I urge you to read all of them, not just the cheeky one you got from me, once voting is over. Perhaps they will be instructive. Note they were all given before this thread was started.
Oh, and don't flatter yourself -- you're not my nemesis. I haven't even seen you in the god threads in Rant. :P |
Actually.. No I hadn't... But you may have.. That had very little connection to my entry, and there was no connection in anyone's mind but your own... Now however that you have pointed out the challenge...
This thread wasn't about arguing with me on every freaking thing I say... It was is all about voting, so how about you please go back to voting the way you always have, as it is extremely obvious that you have no interest in examining your voting, or changing in any way whatsoever...
Message edited by author 2010-06-07 12:30:36. |
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06/07/2010 01:52:18 PM · #75 |
Someone earlier brought up Louis' low entry count as some sort of indictation of being out of touch and not understanding how difficult it is to shoot out of your comfort zone. Putting aside the BS directed at Louis, if it is true that shooting out of your comfort zone is harder then why on earth would we expect higher scores? Ansel Adams was happy to get just ten worthy photographs each year and he was shooting in his friggin' comfort zone!
You can learn far more from Louis' 27 entries then the last 200 or so ribbon winners combined, but that's assuming you want to learn about what makes a photograph and not a commodity.
Message edited by author 2010-06-07 13:56:47.
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