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09/07/2004 02:05:16 PM · #1 |
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09/08/2004 10:57:12 AM · #2 |
| Bump. Important new information, or lack there of. |
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09/08/2004 11:06:14 AM · #3 |
Who cares, He has served the last 3.5 years as Commander and Chief, the head of all military, you can't get any higher than that and 24/7 too. We don't care about Kerry's war stuff either. Let's just vote! Van
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09/08/2004 11:09:11 AM · #4 |
maybe the Enron folks shredded the missing records by accident.
Im not really sure of the reason behind this article, other than its just another Bush Bash. Has Bush stated he did some heroic acts during this time frame in question or something. I guess I just dont get it.
Or are the Kerry people just digging to dig.
James |
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09/08/2004 11:36:43 AM · #5 |
I find it funny and ironic that some say this type of information is not important. Yet since the Swift Boat ads (which the credibility of has been torn to shreds) starting showing up and since the media took off on them, Bush has now taken a several point lead in the polls. I also now know 2 democrats who will now vote Bush because they say the Swift Boat 'controversy' has raised questions about Kerry.
These are the same questions that have been raised for years now about Bush's service record. Yet the media just drops them and does not pursue. Every once and a while I find an article like this out that does not get its just attention.
And people say the media has a liberal bias? If that were the case, all those 527 ads against Bush would have secured the election for Kerry. Since there were many ads running all the time against Bush the media didn’t pick up on, but it only took one 527 ad against Kerry and the media went nuts.
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09/08/2004 11:49:32 AM · #6 |
ok I will ask again, since there are missing records in Bush's military record, what is BUSH saying he did or accomplished during the time the documents are missing from. I have no idea so please fill me in.
Did Dubya say he has a purple heart medal from that time frame or rescued some refugees or something very heroic to get another medal or silver star?
Kerry did boast his medals and his service record, but it has just as many flaws in it, from what I have read or seen on TV, butr we both know you cant trust anyone in the media
James |
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09/08/2004 11:56:53 AM · #7 |
Looks like Mr. Bush's truncated enlistment in the Texas Air National Guard is going to be revisited.
Today, September 8th, CBS will air an interview with former Texas Lt. Gov. Ben Barnes; wherein he discloses that the Bush family, through associates, approached him to pull some strings to get the young George W. Bush into the Texas Air National Guard -- thus avoiding Vietnam. (See the 60 Minutes page here.)
And, of course, there's the A.P.'s freedom of information suit which reveals that at least 5 key documents are missing from Mr. Bush's National Guard record. The missing documents are:
* Records of a required investigation into why [Mr.] Bush lost flight status. When Bush skipped his 1972 physical, regulations required his Texas commanders to "direct an investigation as to why the individual failed to accomplish the medical examination," according to the Air Force manual at the time.
* A written acknowledgment from [Mr.] Bush that he had received the orders grounding him, [after losing his flight status].
* Reports of formal counseling sessions [Mr.] Bush was required to have after missing more than three training sessions. Bush missed at least five months' worth of National Guard training in 1972.
* A signed statement from [Mr.] Bush acknowledging he could be called to active duty if he did not promptly transfer to another guard unit after leaving Texas. The statement was required as part of a Vietnam-era crackdown on no-show guardsmen.
* A report from the Texas Air National Guard to Bush's local draft board certifying that Bush remained in good standing.
Read the A.P. article here.
Meantime, we have an organization with demonstrable ties to the Bush campaign smearing Mr. Kerry's heroic war record; and, still, Mr. Bush's supporters (many of whom claim to be pro-military) stand by their man, like a battered wife.
As I've written on another thread, to quote conservatives of yesteryear, America, where is the moral outrage? A genuine war hero is smeared, simply to advance Mr. Bush's agenda, and I don't hear a peep from so-called military supporters.
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09/08/2004 12:11:48 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by bdobe:
Looks like Mr. Bush's truncated enlistment in the Texas Air National Guard is going to be revisited.
Today, September 8th, CBS will air an interview with former Texas Lt. Gov. Ben Barnes; wherein he discloses that the Bush family, through associates, approached him to pull some strings to get the young George W. Bush into the Texas Air National Guard -- thus avoiding Vietnam. (See the 60 Minutes page here.) |
No doubt 60 Minutes will be sure to also point out that Ben Barnes is a top fund-raiser ( over $100,000 ) for the Kerry Campaign. Or will they?
Not that I'm accusing Barnes of any bias against Bush, mind you. I just thought I'd point out that he MIGHT have a political inclination that MIGHT cause him to add nuance to his selection of wording.
Since anti-Bush posters are quick to point out that the Bush campaign has "demonstrable ties" to the Swift-Boat Veterans for Truth, I thought it only fair that I point out the Kerry campaign's "demonstrable ties" to Ben Barnes.
Ron |
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09/08/2004 12:35:22 PM · #9 |
More info released today Lawsuit uncovers Bush Guard records
Boy I say. This new freedom of information act is a great thing. It’s just a shame a news organization had to sue the defense department to get the info. |
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09/08/2004 12:52:31 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
More info released today Lawsuit uncovers Bush Guard records
Boy I say. This new freedom of information act is a great thing. It’s just a shame a news organization had to sue the defense department to get the info. |
I agree. Too bad it can't be used to force the release of John Kerry's military medical records.
Oh, and for your information, the Freedom of Information Act is not new - it's older than you are. It was signed into law by President Lyndon Johnson on July 4, 1966. It was amended in 1996 to include electronic data as well as paper documents.
But I'm glad you like it.
Ron
Message edited by author 2004-09-08 12:53:48. |
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09/08/2004 01:01:01 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by RonB:
No doubt 60 Minutes will be sure to also point out that Ben Barnes is a top fund-raiser ( over $100,000 ) for the Kerry Campaign. Or will they? |
Yes, from what I've read thus far, whenever Mr. Barnes has spoken on this subject, there's been full-disclosure. I'm certain that 60 Minutes will mention that Mr. Barnes is a supporter of Mr. Kerry. This fact, I belive, should not negate Mr. Barnes remorse over getting the sons of the well connected out of Vietnam; while those less fortunate, over 55,000 of them, lost their lives in that war. At a public rally, for Mr. Kerry, Mr. Barnes said:
"It was the worst thing I did, was help a lot of wealthy supporters and a lot of people who had family names of importance get into the National Guard. And I'm very sorry of that and I'm very ashamed, and I apologize to you as the voters of Texas."
To read the quote and for more background on how Mr. Barnes' story came to the foreground, see this article.
I'd like to belive that as Mr. Barnes comes into the twilight of his life, he's taking stock of his deeds and is making peace with his conscious; because, as Mr. Barnes alludes, for every young man he kept out of Vietnam, another one went in his place, and many of them did not return.
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P.S. For those of you that have followed my posts, you know that as a former enlisted man in the USMC, I keep close watch on our military fatality count in Iraq -- which, to me, is the Vietnam of my generation. Sadly, the fatality count now stands at 1,004 -- when I first posted the figure on the DPC board, some 4 weeks ago, the figure was 932.
By the way, there are some currently serving military personnel that also question the Iraq war, they can be found at Operation Truth. (Perhaps, someday, they too will be attacked and vilified, as Mr. Kerry has, for questioning the Vietnam of our generation.)
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09/08/2004 01:44:43 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by bdobe:
By the way, there are some currently serving military personnel that also question the Iraq war, they can be found at Operation Truth. (Perhaps, someday, they too will be attacked and vilified, as Mr. Kerry has, for questioning the Vietnam of our generation.) |
Thanks so much for that link, bdobe. I've enjoyed reading what many of the veterans have written, and, although some are not very happy with their situation, I haven't seen any ( yet ) that attack the U.S. government or the Bush administration for waging an unjust war, as Kerry did while the Vietnam war was still being fought.
I especially liked this diary entry ( from the "If I Only Knew Then, What I Know Now" link off the "Soldiers reveal the truth about the war" link on the "Learn the Truth" panel on the left hand side of the main link:
"One little Iraqi schoolgirl offered me a candy bar. I motioned with my hands that she should eat it. She opened up the candy bar and broke it in half and offered me a half. Talking with my hand, I gave her back the half she offered me and I told her I was full and she should eat it. She smiled and then she started blowing me kisses. He older sister who was on the other side of the street was watching all this going on, ran over and grabbed her by the arm to take her away. They both giggled and laughed hysterically when they walked away, the little girl blow kisses still the entire time"
Sounds like SOME Iraqi's don't despise the U.S. presence. And some G.I.'s don't mind being there, all things considered.
Ron |
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09/08/2004 02:26:11 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by bdobe:
By the way, there are some currently serving military personnel that also question the Iraq war, they can be found at Operation Truth. (Perhaps, someday, they too will be attacked and vilified, as Mr. Kerry has, for questioning the Vietnam of our generation.) |
I did not really find anyone "questioning" the war in Iraq on that web site, it read more like Journals and personal stories or just plain whining. After reading some of those stories and journal entries I really wonder why that person even joined the US armed forces in the first place. Did they NOT know what an army or Military does for a living, oh yeah, they wanted the army with the condo's, golf courses and jet ski's.
I am former US Navy 1988 to 1991, served aboard the USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN 71) from 1990 to 1991.
James |
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09/08/2004 03:09:03 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by vtruan:
Who cares, He has served the last 3.5 years as Commander and Chief, the head of all military, you can't get any higher than that and 24/7 too. We don't care about Kerry's war stuff either. Let's just vote! Van |
Yes!!! An 11 point lead. Who needs 60 more days of this garbage, lets get it over with already. :) |
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09/08/2004 03:09:25 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
...the Swift Boat ads (which the credibility of has been torn to shreds) |
Now, was Kerry in Cambodia or not? When asked about his "magic hat" story, his campaign said he had never crossed the Cambodian border. But then I find quotes like this:
"I remember Christmas of 1968, sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians and have the President of the United States telling the American people that I was not there, the troops were not in Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared in me." - John Kerry March 27, 1986, during a Senate debate
So, was he in Cambodia or did he perjure himself on the senate floor?
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09/08/2004 03:17:32 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by bdobe:
I'd like to belive that as Mr. Barnes comes into the twilight of his life, he's taking stock of his deeds and is making peace with his conscious; because, as Mr. Barnes alludes, for every young man he kept out of Vietnam, another one went in his place, and many of them did not return. |
LOL!!! Since your feeling so generous to Mr. Barnes, why not extend that same benefit of the doubt to swift boat vets for why they waited until now to publish their book? After all, Mr. Barnes could have come up four years ago with this information. |
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09/08/2004 03:29:37 PM · #17 |
Mr. Barnes did come out with that information four years ago; however, the media did not cover the disclosure in the same manner in that they've covered the recent attacks on Mr. Kerry:
"Ben Barnes, who was speaker of the Texas House of Representatives in 1968, said in a deposition in 2000 that he placed a call to get young Bush a coveted slot in the Guard at the request of a Bush family friend."
See here.
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Originally posted by ScottK:
Originally posted by bdobe:
I'd like to believe that as Mr. Barnes comes into the twilight of his life, he's taking stock of his deeds and is making peace with his conscious; because, as Mr. Barnes alludes, for every young man he kept out of Vietnam, another one went in his place, and many of them did not return. |
LOL!!! Since your feeling so generous to Mr. Barnes, why not extend that same benefit of the doubt to swift boat vets for why they waited until now to publish their book? After all, Mr. Barnes could have come up four years ago with this information. |
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09/08/2004 03:40:21 PM · #18 |
An aside: dbode, love your sig - its right on the money. "Air America Radio: Sit back, Relax and Enjoy the show... there's no Rush!" As in, there's no rush of listeners! ;) We just got Air America here in San Diego - what a snoozer. And the kicker is, do you know who owns the station? Hold onto your hat, but its that bastion of right wing radio conglomerates, the evil symbol of all that's wrong with the radio world, none other than ClearChannel.
Message edited by author 2004-09-08 15:47:48. |
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09/08/2004 03:47:17 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by bdobe:
Mr. Barnes did come out with that information four years ago; however, the media did not cover the disclosure in the same manner in that they've covered the recent attacks on Mr. Kerry:
"Ben Barnes, who was speaker of the Texas House of Representatives in 1968, said in a deposition in 2000 that he placed a call to get young Bush a coveted slot in the Guard at the request of a Bush family friend."
See here.
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Maybe because, as John Kerry declared back when Clinto was running, we were supposed to have put behind us the divisiveness over how people chose to server, or not serve in Clinton's case, during the Viet Nam war.
To which, I know, the response is that the Bush camp brought it up by "attacking" Kerry on his service record. (Which is inaccurate in all kinds of ways, but we'll skip that for the moment.) There is a huge difference however: GW never said "vote for me because I served in the Air National Guard". John Kerry has said, more or less, "vote for me because I served in the Navy in Viet Nam." If John Kerry wants us to vote for him because of what he did in Viet Nam, than it is fair to scrutinize that service. |
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09/08/2004 03:50:24 PM · #20 |
So, we now know that Mr. Bush was absent at the beginning and end of his service without explanation. Isn’t that called AWOL?
And he calls himself a war president?
//www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/09/07/1000.fallen.ap/index.html
Now, over 1,000 American military personnel have died in the Iraq war.
And this time, all but 138 U.S. deaths came after the declared end of major combat operations. "Mission Accomplished," read a banner on the aircraft carrier where President Bush spoke on May 1, 2003.
Sixteen months later, the fighting and funerals go on. |
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09/08/2004 04:23:10 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by vtruan:
Who cares, He has served the last 3.5 years as Commander and Chief, the head of all military, you can't get any higher than that and 24/7 too. We don't care about Kerry's war stuff either. Let's just vote! Van |
Yep.
Who cares what happened 30+ years ago? Bush was a drunk and took advantage of having a wealthy and well connected family. Kerry commited war crimes while getting a bunch of medals which he pretended to throw away.
30 years ago, when I was 2, I did some pretty bad stuff too.
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09/08/2004 06:01:11 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by louddog:
Yep.
Who cares what happened 30+ years ago? Bush was a drunk and took advantage of having a wealthy and well connected family. Kerry commited war crimes while getting a bunch of medals which he pretended to throw away.
30 years ago, when I was 2, I did some pretty bad stuff too. |
So are you voting Nader? :) |
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09/08/2004 06:59:30 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by ScottK:
Originally posted by louddog:
Yep.
Who cares what happened 30+ years ago? Bush was a drunk and took advantage of having a wealthy and well connected family. Kerry commited war crimes while getting a bunch of medals which he pretended to throw away.
30 years ago, when I was 2, I did some pretty bad stuff too. |
So are you voting Nader? :) |
I don't think Nader is even going to be on the ballot here. Even if he was, I don't think I would. I'm going to look at what the two have done since the stupidity of youth, and one is talking about things that will make my life better then vote accordingly.
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09/08/2004 07:27:29 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by ScottK:
An aside: dbode, love your sig - its right on the money. "Air America Radio: Sit back, Relax and Enjoy the show... there's no Rush!" As in, there's no rush of listeners! ;) We just got Air America here in San Diego - what a snoozer. And the kicker is, do you know who owns the station? Hold onto your hat, but its that bastion of right wing radio conglomerates, the evil symbol of all that's wrong with the radio world, none other than ClearChannel. |
There doesn't seem to be a big rush of advertisers either. However, I do think the San Diego call letters for Airhead America are appropriate, KLSD. You'd have to be on LSD to believe that crap. |
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09/08/2004 07:34:23 PM · #25 |
Calling on MadMordegon , where do you live? The reason I ask is you seem VERY opposed to President Bush and post every link you can about the War in Iraq and why is it Bush to blame for it and so on.
Im just curious as to all this anger you have for 1 person.
James
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