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DPChallenge Forums >> Tips, Tricks, and Q&A >> Advanced Editing: Perspective tool permitted?
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 08/31/2004 05:00:51 PM · #1
I have an image that I'm considering submitting to the current Member challenge. I was unable to position myself in the optimum position and, as a consequence, the perspective is slightly off.

I could correct this with minimal use of the Perspective tool and it would not change the image content in any substantial way - it would really just be a customised crop.

Is it allowed?

If there's no specific ruling, would it be considered provided the SC deemed the result not to impact on any major element of the image?

Would appreciate input ASAP.

MANY THANKS!
 08/31/2004 05:03:57 PM · #2
//www.dpchallenge.com/forum.php?action=read&FORUM_THREAD_ID=94593&highlight=perspective

I have no idea if that answers your question because it was a few months ago and it didn't seem like a decision had been reached even...

Message edited by author 2004-08-31 17:06:01.
 08/31/2004 05:08:10 PM · #3
here's another

//www.dpchallenge.com/forum.php?action=read&FORUM_THREAD_ID=106553&highlight=perspective

definitely no in basic editing. :)

Message edited by author 2004-08-31 17:09:13.
 08/31/2004 05:09:02 PM · #4
Yeah thanks AmiYuy & Annasense!
I had looked through those old threads and no consensus seems to have been reached so I thought I'd asked.
I'm talking about correction of minor distortion and the integrity of the original image would certainly be retained.
I note that EddyG mentioned that he personally felt it would be acceptable under Advanced rules but implies SC hadn't discussed/ ruled on it.
What I'd really appreciate is a "ruling" if that's possible.

Message edited by author 2004-08-31 17:09:32.
 08/31/2004 05:13:05 PM · #5
I'm watching the thread, now. I want to know if it's allowed in Advanced Editing. Thanks for bringing it up again!!
 08/31/2004 05:13:45 PM · #6
The picture I really wanted to use for the Hope challenge looked much better with a perspective to "correct" for the wide-angle lens effect. I submitted something else since I knew that wouldn't work for Basic editing, but sort-of presumed it would be OK for Advanced editing challenges.

The key is to use it to make the photo more realistic-looking to compensate for the physical limitations* of the equipment, rather than to distort an image into a piece of "art." As you describe its use, nobody should be able to tell it was done, and in my opinion would be OK, but it ultimately is subject to a vote of the entire SC if it does get a DQ request.

*For example, with an 8x10 view camera you can adjust the plane of the lens relative to the film plane such as to be able to correct many typical perspective problems.
 08/31/2004 05:16:33 PM · #7
General
My use would be very much a case of correcting minor distortion and the result should look completely natural. It also would not change the natural image much.
Has the SC discussed the issue? What is the general consensus on minimal use of this tool in advanced editing rules challenges?
I'd rather not test it at the point of DQ.

08/31/2004 05:21:13 PM · #8
just do it.
Then the SC will have to make an desition and this issue resolved.

The worst that would happen is that you would get DQ out of one challenge.
 08/31/2004 05:24:43 PM · #9
Originally posted by siggi:
just do it.
Then the SC will have to make an desition and this issue resolved.

The worst that would happen is that you would get DQ out of one challenge.


True but to be honest I'd rather know the opinions of SC on this as a group before I enter rather than find out by being DQd.

I'm hoping they'd be able to table the issue and agree a general consensus on the rule, even if it's tempered by a statement such as:

Permitted provided SC deem that photographic integrity has been maintained.

Or however they want to put it.

Basically I'm asking them to discuss it before rather than after the fact.
 08/31/2004 05:28:42 PM · #10
Originally posted by Kavey:
Has the SC discussed the issue? What is the general consensus on minimal use of this tool in advanced editing rules challenges?

No, it hasn't been thoroughly discussed, so there is no consensus. All of these decisions involving "how much" something has been done to a photo are subjectively-made on our part, and as such are not even always consistent, but that's the system we're stuck with for now.

If you are merely correcting the perspective slightly (like straightening walls as you shoot up the side of a building) and it looks "natural" I can't think of a "rational" reason to DQ it for violating either the letter or spirit of the Advanced rules, but I refuse to guarantee rational action on anyone's part but my own. : )
 08/31/2004 05:30:53 PM · #11
Originally posted by Kavey:
Basically I'm asking them to discuss it before rather than after the fact.

As long as the thread stays up on the front page it's highly likely a few other SC members will see it at some point today ... and hopefully offer their own unofficial opinions ...
 08/31/2004 05:32:57 PM · #12
Thanks GeneralE!

Would it not be possible to get official opinions though?

08/31/2004 05:36:25 PM · #13
Not within this timeframe, unless Drew or Langdon drop by and issue a decree ...
 08/31/2004 05:38:33 PM · #14
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Not within this timeframe, unless Drew or Langdon drop by and issue a decree ...


OK fair enough, thanks.
In which case more unofficial SC opinions solicited!
:o)
 08/31/2004 06:14:53 PM · #15
I've stated my case in the other thread, but just for the record, I think that this type of tool is perfectly valid under the Advanced Editing rules when used for correction (but not when they are "abused" beyond their intended purpose).
 08/31/2004 06:17:36 PM · #16
Originally posted by EddyG:
I've stated my case in the other thread, but just for the record, I think that this type of tool is perfectly valid under the Advanced Editing rules when used for correction (but not when they are "abused" beyond their intended purpose).


Thanks Eddy...
Any more SCs lurking/ reading forums today?
:o)
 08/31/2004 06:49:48 PM · #17
I agree with Eddy's (and I think Paul's) assessment. Minor corrections of perspective seem perfectly fine under advanced.
 08/31/2004 06:50:57 PM · #18
Me too! :)
 08/31/2004 06:56:19 PM · #19
Irony is that I am probably going with one of the contenders that looks ok without perspective correction!!

But I might change my mind and go with a different one... as is my wont as an indecisive chica so...

Reponses appreciated, thanks!
 08/31/2004 07:54:09 PM · #20
In one of the linked threads, I had posted an opinion that reflected a partial consensus (40%) of the SC "population". The conclusion was, legal under advanced but not under basic.
Do not use the tool to "overcorrect" for "artistic effect", though, or you may risk DQ since clearly you are moving elements around.
 09/01/2004 05:54:47 AM · #21
Originally posted by kirbic:
In one of the linked threads, I had posted an opinion that reflected a partial consensus (40%) of the SC "population". The conclusion was, legal under advanced but not under basic.
Do not use the tool to "overcorrect" for "artistic effect", though, or you may risk DQ since clearly you are moving elements around.


Yes, I agree. What I am thinking about is where one wants to take a building or other linear object and correct slightly for distortion that comes either from position or simply from scale.
 09/01/2004 06:02:40 AM · #22
Are we allowed to remove objects?

09/01/2004 06:05:58 AM · #23
It depends what you want to remove.

Cloning, dodging, and/or burning to remove imperfections and minor distracting elements is permitted.
 09/01/2004 06:20:49 AM · #24
But not major distracting elements?

Perspective correction ought to be allowed under basic rules, according to the way they're expressed presently: it manipulates the full image, without selecting individual pixels or groups of them. It's an absolutely valid dark-room technique from the enlargement process (which I believe is the guiding light of what's allowed and what's not). Used poorly (usual evidence being flattened circles etc.) it'll score poorly, used well, it won't be noticed.

E
 09/01/2004 06:22:26 AM · #25
Ok, I read the threads listed and I just don't get why perspective and distortion correction wouldn't be allowed in basic editing. I understand you don't want people using non-camera tools for artistic effect (moving pixels) but I see this as a tool for image repair much like Neat Image's noise reduction.

I'd like to add that correcting this sort of distortion (in my day via enlarger but now probably by PS) is taught in first semester high school photography classes. Can't get more basic than that.

So if you make perspective correction illegal in basic is rotation legal? How about flipping an image either horizontally or vertically? Shouldn't then all of this be illegal as well?
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