Framed Outttakes - DPChallenge Forums

Nikon AF-S Zoom-Nikkor 24-120mm f/3.5-5.6G IF-ED VR

08/26/2004 03:43:51 PM · #26

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

What about photos from previous challenges that would fit this challenge?

I think this is one of the best examples of framing I have come across. It's not just framing for the sake of it, it's an absolutely crucial element of the finished image, just as important, if not more so, than what we see through the frame. It really is just beautiful.

jadin

Nikon D800

08/26/2004 03:53:53 PM · #27

Originally posted by JPR:

I believe there is a rule stating that we can't post outtakes that would give away which photo is ours during the challenge.

I have no qualms whatsoever about posting previous entry challenges that demonstrate this concept. Is it intrusive on other people's creativity? Quite possibly. Is it something that should be stopped? No.

So why is there a rule stating we can't post outtakes that would give away which photo is ours? Simple, because it affects the voting. So how is having outtakes that don't show which photo is yours a bad thing? Simple, it affects the voting. People will vote differently about photos that they have a preconceived notion about. Giving truly "unique" photos a distinct advantage. While the advantage is there regardless of outtakes, it can drastically hurt someone who might not be that creative.

Respect:

There is a huge difference between having morals and the enforcement of such morals. While Kid A has a belief that murder is not wrong, is he guilty of a crime if he does not commit murder? No. Not a chance. And it will remain this way until 1984 becomes a reality. (side note: conspiracy isn't relevant in this case since the individual is taking steps towards the action) Does this mean that Kid A has bad morals? Yes. The morals are decided by the majority as you say, but they can't do anything about that. In the same way, something I find disrespectful has nothing to do with anyone else, and doesn't change my ideals. Is there anything wrong with trying to convince Kid A that murder is wrong? I don't think so. So why can't I list my arguments of why I find posting outtakes early is disrespectful?

kyebosh

Canon EOS-20D

Canon EF 80-200mm f/2.8L

08/26/2004 03:59:24 PM · #28

::Ducks for cover::

Nikon AF-S Zoom-Nikkor 24-120mm f/3.5-5.6G IF-ED VR

08/26/2004 04:01:58 PM · #29

By all means list them. And list them as your opinions.

Just TELLING someone that what they have done shows a lack of respect, period, (not just in your opinion) suggests their action shows a lack of respect in terms of the majority view too.

And we don't know that yet.

I don't take issue with your choice to state WHY you feel that outtakes should not be posted. I even agree with SOME of your reasons. I am not arguing for or against being able to post outtakes.

Your initial post about it being a lack of respect put my back up. It implied that the original poster somehow KNEW the definition of respect being called into play and deliberately flouted it.

Yet there is no agreed definition on that point yet.

Anyway, bored now, please continue without me. :o)

jadin

Nikon D800

08/26/2004 04:12:58 PM · #30

Originally posted by Kavey:

Your initial post about it being a lack of respect put my back up. It implied that the original poster somehow KNEW the definition of respect being called into play and deliberately flouted it.

I was in the understanding that I was in the norm. Only later posts showed otherwise, or like you say, has yet to be agreed upon.

melismatica

Minolta DiMAGE F200

08/26/2004 04:14:37 PM · #31

Originally posted by Artyste:

I, personally, agree with Jadin.

I just don't see one *good* solid reason why people should be posting "outtakes" before a challenge has even gone to the voting stage (or during it!). It just makes no sense to me.

I opted out of this tirade last week (regarding Vanishing Point) but since I'm not entering this challenge and am not entered in the current challenges I'll add my two cents.

I read that entire thread last week and not one person gave a sensible argument against posting photos that correlate to a current challenge. I found the reasoning laughable at best, narrowminded and petty at worst. There is a long history of artists cooperating and sharing ideas with the aim of improving and promoting their art form (or movement). Art, imagination, and learning don't thrive in a vacuum.

Unless the person is posting a photo that is nearly identical to the one they have submitted are will ultimately submit, thus destroying the anonymity of their entry, I welcome the opportunity to view their ideas.

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Pentax

08/26/2004 04:16:47 PM · #32

Originally posted by jadin:

Originally posted by Kavey:
Your initial post about it being a lack of respect put my back up. It implied that the original poster somehow KNEW the definition of respect being called into play and deliberately flouted it.

I was in the understanding that I was in the norm. Only later posts showed otherwise, or like you say, has yet to be agreed upon.

Hey, for all we know, you ARE in the majority! ;o)
I might be out here ALL on my own! :o) (It wouldn't be the first time!)

I am somewhere in the middle. I can understand the reason people don't like the idea of posting outtakes during challenge. But then are we saying we should ban all threads discussing ideas and showing non-outtake images that fit the theme? Some people don't like to see other ideas during the week but others work best by brainstorming with each other, by getting the creative spark from each other. There is learning to be had not only in taking the image but also in arriving at the concept. If that IS to be allowed, what is the difference in also posting outtakes? I guess that's my dilemma. I don't want to see a ban on ALL threads looking at ideas and example images as I think it's part of the learning process, on the creative side. But I do understand why people don't want to see outtakes posted - I think most of it is a feeling of lack of fair play - receiving more feedback than is their "fair share" - almost getting away with multiple entries but not quite.

I dunno, all quite a difficult one really.

:o)

Message edited by author 2004-08-26 16:17:16.

Artyste

Sony Ericsson W810i

08/26/2004 04:20:19 PM · #33

Originally posted by melismatica:

Well, it all just comes down to a matter of personal comfort level in the end I guess. Mine is that I'd rather not see things, so as I said, I can opt out of the threads, that's my perogative. I'm not concerned enough about it to take the issue to the administrators myself, but others could.
So.. because this seems to be like religion and politics.. I'll just do what most people *should* when stuck at an impasse.. politely respect everyone's opinions, and let the matter go.

I have to start working on my "Fairy Tale" ideas *anyway* ;)

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

08/26/2004 04:20:23 PM · #34

Originally posted by melismatica:

Originally posted by Artyste:
I, personally, agree with Jadin.

I just don't see one *good* solid reason why people should be posting "outtakes" before a challenge has even gone to the voting stage (or during it!). It just makes no sense to me.

I opted out of this tirade last week (regarding Vanishing Point) but since I'm not entering this challenge and am not entered in the current challenges I'll add my two cents.

I read that entire thread last week and not one person gave a sensible argument against posting photos that correlate to a current challenge. I found the reasoning laughable at best, narrowminded and petty at worst. There is a long history of artists cooperating and sharing ideas with the aim of improving and promoting their art form (or movement). Art, imagination, and learning don't thrive in a vacuum.

Unless the person is posting a photo that is nearly identical to the one they have submitted are will ultimately submit, thus destroying the anonymity of their entry, I welcome the opportunity to view their ideas.

Me too.

Like I said I can understand if people admitted they don't like it because of a sense of lack of fair play - that person gets feedback on more than one entry, effectively.

But I don't get the other reasons - as in terms of influence, it's no different to other threads posting non-outtake images and ideas.

Creativity is just as much of a process that needs to be discussed and improved as is the technical taking of the image. More so, I'd argue.

Andelain

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

08/26/2004 04:32:24 PM · #35

Save all this arguing whats the problem with waiting till after the voting to post outtakes, Sheesh its only a couple of days

jadin

Nikon D800

Nikon AF-S Zoom-Nikkor 24-120mm f/3.5-5.6G IF-ED VR

08/26/2004 04:45:59 PM · #36

Usually previous entries to other challenges aren't posted by the person who shot them. Rather by someone who liked the photo and thought it was a good example.

Usually outtakes are posted by the person who shot them and are only looking for comendation, comments, suggestions or other criticisms. The problem is that these people have already chosen an entry. It's not like they need such feedback.

Basically the only reasons I can see for posting an outtake before a challenge is :
a) selfishness (wanting other people to look at them, to praise them etc)
b) inconsiderate (your worst idea could be someone's best)
c) impatience (what is the rush that you need to post outtakes beforehand?)
d) greed (stealing thunder)
e) example (one of the few valid reasons to post ahead of time, my complaint is why not wait until someone asks for such an example, and even then. PM it to them. [exception would be mass ignorance to a theme])

My point isn't that it's wrong to show outtakes of pictures. My point is why exactly are you doing it and more importantly when are you doing it? If it's to help other people out, where are the threads asking for such help?

In brief, what is your motive for posting such outtakes?