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DPChallenge Forums >> Hardware and Software >> The new Panasonic FZ20 is available, but . . .
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 08/24/2004 02:53:20 PM · #1
It is now available through Circuit City (at least here in the US), but so far the "ratings" are low. I can't wait to see a good, full review since I want this camera to be the "one"!!!
 08/24/2004 04:14:26 PM · #2
If I found myself without an FZ10, I would buy an FZ20 without reading a review. From the samples I've seen, I don't think the noise is significantly worse than the FZ10 and the feature set is much stronger. My dilemma is that on ebay, used FZ10s are going for over £300 and the new FZ20 is going to be £370. I'm very tempted to sell it, but then I might not hit that target on ebay... and besides I really don't want to do without it in the meantime. I have to keep telling myself not to be greedy and that I can manage with the FZ10.
When I start earning some money with my photography in the new year, I'll progress up to a DSLR... and I'll have the benefit of being able to carry about an FZ10 as well for when I can't be bothered to change lenses all the time.
As far as buying without a review goes, it's a no-brainer to me... there's no other camera that comes close... not even the ones that will be coming out in the future. Leica lens with F2.8 throughout the whole range, improved IS, great looks, superb burst mode... these are all things that I love about my FZ10. Also, although it is relatively noisy, this noise disappears instantly when put through NeatImage in a way that doesn't happen with other similar cameras.
The new FZ20 has multi-segment metering, ability to save custom settings, AF assist lamp, and ability to save as higher quality TIFF files. No other camera will come close... just get it!
 08/24/2004 04:26:11 PM · #3
Bob - right now I have Kodak point-n-shoot that creates "jaggies" on straight edges. I think that is a form os "noise", is it not? (Most everyone thinks I over-sharpen, when I actually have to "blur" a bit sometimes because of this.) So I assume I am already working with more noise than I will get with a higher end camera like the Panasonic. Would you say this assumption is fair? I am sure I will get one no matter what! I can't see anything else that would give me more of what I feel I want right now.
 08/24/2004 04:44:58 PM · #4
Dear Kylie,

I'm going to get the new FZ20 for a Christmas/Anniversary gift. My FZ10 is great, the more I use it - the more I like it. Even without a review, I'm sure the FZ20 will be as good. It has such a fabulous lens.

Even at ISO 200 my FZ10 doesn't have a lot of noise. I shot all day Saturday at an Art Gallery display/ fashion show in Taos at ISO 200 so I wouldn't have to use a flash and all the pictures turned out really well.

The Panasonic FZ's also take VERY nice movies. I took some movies (in low light) of our son playing in his band at the Art Show thing and the movies are pretty close to videocam good. I've not taken very many movies with mine but whenever I do I'm impressed with how they turn out. You can take movies until you fill the card up and you can zoom in before you start.

If you have the money right now and it's available - I would say go for it! If you don't like it, Circuit City is really good about taking things back.

You can buy extra batteries for a lot less on eBay. They are almost $50 in the store and you can buy the generic brands on eBay for between $15 - $20, sometimes less. I got a coupld for only $11 and they actually last longer in the camera than the one that came with it.
 08/24/2004 04:50:12 PM · #5
Kylie, your "jaggies" are most likely caused by the strong jpeg compression that Kodak uses. Make sure your camera is set to the highest quality setting (least compression).

If I am wrong, please ignore me :-)

Chad
 08/24/2004 04:52:45 PM · #6
Originally posted by Sammie:
Dear Kylie,

I'm going to get the new FZ20 for a Christmas/Anniversary gift. My FZ10 is great, the more I use it - the more I like it. Even without a review, I'm sure the FZ20 will be as good. It has such a fabulous lens.

Even at ISO 200 my FZ10 doesn't have a lot of noise. I shot all day Saturday at an Art Gallery display/ fashion show in Taos at ISO 200 so I wouldn't have to use a flash and all the pictures turned out really well.

The Panasonic FZ's also take VERY nice movies. I took some movies (in low light) of our son playing in his band at the Art Show thing and the movies are pretty close to videocam good. I've not taken very many movies with mine but whenever I do I'm impressed with how they turn out. You can take movies until you fill the card up and you can zoom in before you start.

If you have the money right now and it's available - I would say go for it! If you don't like it, Circuit City is really good about taking things back.

You can buy extra batteries for a lot less on eBay. They are almost $50 in the store and you can buy the generic brands on eBay for between $15 - $20, sometimes less. I got a coupld for only $11 and they actually last longer in the camera than the one that came with it.


Thanks, Sammie! What do think about the question I posted to Bob?
 08/24/2004 04:54:35 PM · #7
Originally posted by cpurser:
Kylie, your "jaggies" are most likely caused by the strong jpeg compression that Kodak uses. Make sure your camera is set to the highest quality setting (least compression).

If I am wrong, please ignore me :-)

Chad


No - you are right on target, actually that is what I thought. I had heard Kodak has that tendancy to over-compress. It is the only thing I really hate about my camera. I do always use the highest/best setting, too. So this is not considered a type of noise?
08/24/2004 05:02:57 PM · #8
Kylie.. try using the DX4530.. the jpeg compression is even worse than the DX6000 series..

If only I'd held out for the 6490..

Ah well.. one of these days I'll have a true digital SLR.
 08/24/2004 05:15:38 PM · #9
Originally posted by Artyste:
Kylie.. try using the DX4530.. the jpeg compression is even worse than the DX6000 series..

If only I'd held out for the 6490..

Ah well.. one of these days I'll have a true digital SLR.


Hey, check out the new Kodak - the 7490. I may get it as my carry-along for the husband. Looks very cool.
 08/24/2004 05:23:05 PM · #10
My next digital will be a full digi-SLR.. probably the Pentax *ist D.

I just don't feel like wasting any more money on a point-and-shoot.. no matter how many features they cram into it :) The DX4530 was my quick-fix option because my old HP died fast, and without warning.

Now.. the saving begins!
 08/24/2004 05:55:25 PM · #11
Originally posted by Kylie:
Thanks, Sammie! What do think about the question I posted to Bob?


Yes, jaggies are a type of "noise" - compression artifacts.

You shouldn't have any problem with jaggies if you get the FZ20 - I've never had any with my FZ10. Personally, I really dislike Kodak digital cameras. My husband has one at his work and it just sucks. Most Kodaks seem to be made for people who don't do a lot with their photography except take pics at kid's parties and things like that. Some of the new Kodak releases are better and aimed at enthusiasts but generally speaking they compress the pics way too much and try to make them look too sharp right out of the camera.

Kodak is one of the brands that almost everyone recognizes so they automatically assume they will be getting a good camera. It's like Singer sewing machines, everyone knows the name so thinks they are safe buying that brand. There are so many sewing machines that are far better than Singers.

Anyway - I'm getting off on a tangent! You will love the FZ20 - it's a serious camera but will be very easy to use. The controls and things are exactly the same as the FZ10 and I can even get it all set up and take pictures in the dark because the buttoms and menus are so logical. The new FZ20 will even take TIFF pictures so you can get compression free shots if you like. I prefer TIFF to Raw - you can edit them in all the photo programs without conversion.

I can't wait to get my new FZ20 - will try to convince my husband that I should receive my Christmas/Anniversary gift early this year! Oh course, that usually happens every year so in the end I'm probably a few gifts ahead of myself.
 08/24/2004 06:05:08 PM · #12
I am pretty certain that the jaggies are caused by having an inefective or non-existent anti-aliasing filter in your camera. Aliasing is when black and white pixels on a diagonal line have no graduations of grey, so the pixels show up as jagged. Most cameras have a physical filter that blurs these diagonals... and this is why you have to use USM to get your sharpness back which this filter has blurred. Most cameras are pretty good at having a good balance between anti-aliasing and losing too much sharpness. Noise is different to this aliasing you're probably finding with your camera. Noise is when the light sensors in your camera fire at the wrong time as they're pretty sensitive to heat, and there's plenty of heat generated by an image sensor. This is removed pretty easily on an FZ20.
I hope this answers all of your questions!
 08/24/2004 06:06:06 PM · #13
Originally posted by Sammie:
Originally posted by Kylie:
Thanks, Sammie! What do think about the question I posted to Bob?


Yes, jaggies are a type of "noise" - compression artifacts.

You shouldn't have any problem with jaggies if you get the FZ20 - I've never had any with my FZ10. Personally, I really dislike Kodak digital cameras. My husband has one at his work and it just sucks. Most Kodaks seem to be made for people who don't do a lot with their photography except take pics at kid's parties and things like that. Some of the new Kodak releases are better and aimed at enthusiasts but generally speaking they compress the pics way too much and try to make them look too sharp right out of the camera.

Kodak is one of the brands that almost everyone recognizes so they automatically assume they will be getting a good camera. It's like Singer sewing machines, everyone knows the name so thinks they are safe buying that brand. There are so many sewing machines that are far better than Singers.

Anyway - I'm getting off on a tangent! You will love the FZ20 - it's a serious camera but will be very easy to use. The controls and things are exactly the same as the FZ10 and I can even get it all set up and take pictures in the dark because the buttoms and menus are so logical. The new FZ20 will even take TIFF pictures so you can get compression free shots if you like. I prefer TIFF to Raw - you can edit them in all the photo programs without conversion.

I can't wait to get my new FZ20 - will try to convince my husband that I should receive my Christmas/Anniversary gift early this year! Oh course, that usually happens every year so in the end I'm probably a few gifts ahead of myself.


Thank you for all the great info!! I may order it tonight!!!!!!!!!!!
 08/24/2004 06:11:40 PM · #14
Originally posted by BobsterLobster:
I am pretty certain that the jaggies are caused by having an inefective or non-existent anti-aliasing filter in your camera. Aliasing is when black and white pixels on a diagonal line have no graduations of grey, so the pixels show up as jagged. Most cameras have a physical filter that blurs these diagonals... and this is why you have to use USM to get your sharpness back which this filter has blurred. Most cameras are pretty good at having a good balance between anti-aliasing and losing too much sharpness. Noise is different to this aliasing you're probably finding with your camera. Noise is when the light sensors in your camera fire at the wrong time as they're pretty sensitive to heat, and there's plenty of heat generated by an image sensor. This is removed pretty easily on an FZ20.
I hope this answers all of your questions!


Thanks, Bob!!!!! Between you and Sammie, I think I understand much better now and this should help with the worst thing I find with my Kodak (the jaggies). I think Laurie's 6490 is much better with this issue.
 08/24/2004 06:33:08 PM · #15
Circuit City already sold out . . . probably no more until late September
08/24/2004 08:10:32 PM · #16
It does seem that Kodak point and shoot cameras are more prone to artifacts and noise than most other cameras of comparable cost.
However, Kodak has manufactured some excellent DSLRs in the past, including a current model with a 14 megapixel sensor. I had a Kodak DC4800 and it was crap.
But the DCS460, 6 megapixels with a Nikon N90s body, is superb. (and it was cheap at $400 used).
 08/24/2004 08:12:46 PM · #17
Originally posted by ElGordo:
It does seem that Kodak point and shoot cameras are more prone to artifacts and noise than most other cameras of comparable cost.
However, Kodak has manufactured some excellent DSLRs in the past, including a current model with a 14 megapixel sensor. I had a Kodak DC4800 and it was crap.
But the DCS460, 6 megapixels with a Nikon N90s body, is superb. (and it was cheap at $400 used).


I wish I had done my research a little better before buying the DX4530.. but I got suckered in to the 5MP for the good price, and I was a little impatient anyway. OH well, live and learn, and learn to live with what you've got :)
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