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08/10/2004 12:46:55 AM · #51 |
Originally posted by parrothead:
Blah blah blah de Fu**ing blah! Be creative and be happy! Its IS not a contest! It is a critique! It would be nice to win...but who cares! I cherish the comments I get on how to make my photography better, more than I would, or do cherish a virtual medal! |
That's my point, I looked at a thread today where someone's "alternate" entry has twenty comments, while my entry on the same topic has two. I'm not expecting any ribbons -- I suspect I'm in the running for most entries without a (top-end) ribbon -- but I'd like more feedback, and it's necessarily less likely I'll get any if people are spending their time commenting on pictures not even entered in the challenge.
I believe current journalistic nomenclature calls for an additional asterisk in your ellipsis .... |
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08/10/2004 12:47:54 AM · #52 |
Originally posted by digistoune:
Oh gee, I probably shouldn't touch this with a ten foot pole BUT... I posted an outtake from the macro challenge while the voting was in progress. I got some great feedback on how to improve the shot and I really appreciated the folks who took the time to help. However, in the future, I think I will wait until the voting is over and winners are declared before I post a challenge related photo just because I felt kinda guilty afterwards that I might have distracted voters from making comments on the entered images. I don't expect everyone to adhere to what I'm doing - it's just my personal policy. |
The difference is you did it during voting not when there is still a day left before voting starts. You may have taken a comment away from someone but you didn't do anything to influence the submissions prior to the start of the challenge.
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08/10/2004 12:50:43 AM · #53 |
I wont even go there with ya too cool!....Maybe they have been and seen, and I wasnt even commenting on that! I admire that! I actually love the site and the feedback I get from it! I guess that, even if i saw a great idea, I wouldent go and copy some one else! We all have our own vision if you can find it and use it! I didnt mean to be rude..I just think that everyone comes down too hard on something, just because they can??? Just ask nicely not to post outtakes, or dont look! Its that simple! And as far as so cool goes....No worries here! Thanks for the nasty stick comment!
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08/10/2004 12:54:00 AM · #54 |
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
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I'm going to repeat myself on this...
When you post an outtake prior to voting how can you honestly know that no one else has a similar image?
As for thread examples, often they are from other challenges or from DPCPrints and are examples of past work...things anyone could easily find. Outtakes are a whole different subject. If I was showing off my outtake and it was better than your submitted shot wouldn't you want to do something about it? You'd go back and reshoot or else unsubmit it in either way the overall outcome of the challenge will be effected.
There are other sites out there were you could go to post your outtakes and receive excellent comments. I know of a site that several members use and I don't find anything wrong with that cause they aren't influencing voting here. [/quote]
No, I don't know that someone else didn't have the same idea, just as I don't know if they got an idea for some of the examples as I did. And as far as reshooting or not entering, I don't think so. Have you been to some of the winners profiles and taken a look at some of their work. Or how about the highest rated photos on the site. I'm not sure I can ever come close to some of that beauty, but I'm gonna try. And I'm not going to be intimidated by someone else's work. That would just be stupid. I've only been at this a few months and I'll only get better by submitting my work at letting other people tell me what they think instead of what I want to hear. |
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08/10/2004 12:55:35 AM · #55 |
Not to mention that there is some WONDERFUL work that wins! And the 3 outtakes that I saw surly wouldent have influenced anything! No offense....but thats why they are outtakes!
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08/10/2004 01:02:20 AM · #56 |
Originally posted by parrothead:
Not to mention that there is some WONDERFUL work that wins! And the 3 outtakes that I saw surly wouldent have influenced anything! No offense....but thats why they are outtakes! |
Picture 2 is very similar to what I had planned to shoot tomorrow morning...Only reason it hasn't been done yet was the weather...now with that in mind if you were me would you go out and photograph something similar to something someone posted as an outtake?
Yeah mine might have included something different or had been done in b&w but still the scene is almost identical.
Message edited by author 2004-08-10 01:03:58.
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08/10/2004 01:04:28 AM · #57 |
That was inspired by
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08/10/2004 01:08:23 AM · #58 |
Originally posted by kyebosh:
That was inspired by
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Inspired is one thing...showing it as an outake 26 hours before the voting begins DEFINATELY has an influence over the outcome when someone suddenly decides not to even bother with the challenge cause you were so considerate to post your outtakes.
I really hope after the way this thread has been going site council finally makes a statement or at least puts it up for a vote as to when it is ok to start posting your outtakes for a challenge.
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08/10/2004 04:14:21 AM · #59 |
OneSweetSin, I don't understand why you refrain from shooting this picture now, just because something similar is posted here. First of all, it's an outtake, so TS posted something different. Second, just because TS didn't enter this one doesn't mean you can't enter one that will do good. Third of all, it's a traintrack. Did you seriously think you would be the only one with that idea?
I find it quite inspiring to see what others had in mind but didn't post. I also often join in a dutch competition, and part of the fun from the challenges there, is that we all post our tries during the month and inspire each other in that way. (off course, the voting is not "blind" there, so recognition is not a problem.)
I do find the argument that posting outtakes before or during the challenge, takes away comments from others valid on dpc. But I can't see why it people would suddenly not want to submit anymore because of it. |
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08/10/2004 04:38:59 AM · #60 |
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
Maybe since he hasn't been around so long he should have asked if it was ok first or if it would offend anyone before starting a thread like this. |
WTF? Dudes can post whatever they like here as long as it's not rude or insulting to anyone.
He has done nothing wrong at all in my mind, poor chap getting all this abuse for nothing.
If you don't like seeing pictures before a challenge, simply do not look at them. The title is pretty self explanatory "Vanishing point: non entered pics, post in here!"
And General, it's not the posters fault that he/she may receive more feedback than you. If you want feedback you must seek it as they do sometimes by posting on the forums or other sites for that matter. |
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08/10/2004 04:41:14 AM · #61 |
Originally posted by Phileine:
OneSweetSin, I don't understand why you refrain from shooting this picture now, just because something similar is posted here. First of all, it's an outtake, so TS posted something different. Second, just because TS didn't enter this one doesn't mean you can't enter one that will do good. Third of all, it's a traintrack. Did you seriously think you would be the only one with that idea? |
I have to agree wholeheartedly with Phileine on this one. I don't think there is any difference between posting previous images that fit the challenge theme and posting an un-used outtake that fits the theme. Both can inspire others, both can influence voting (in terms of peoples' feelings of having seen the idea before) and both can influence someone's own ideas of what to shoot and enter. What's the difference in terms of actual impact? And, not being rude, but, as Phileine says, whether Kyebosh had shared that image or not, I can't imagine you seriously thought no one else would have thought of railway lines in a Vanishing Point challenge????!!
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I can understand that posting outtakes before voting seems a little unfair in that it means the poster starts getting feedback about their images before those who entered into the challenge get feedback about theirs. But the forums are a different part of the site to the challenge and it's often a different kind of feedback anyway - much more of a conversation than the usual in-voting comments. And this isn't a communist site - each member must receive the identical amount of feedback, each member must provide the identical amount of feedback. It's a loose, free and wonderful community which different members use in different ways. Surely that's one of it's strengths?
Util the site rules change to specifically ban posting outtakes until after the voting is over I don't think it's fair to jump down someone's throat for having done so. I really dislike the "it's an unwritten rule" kind of argument - we're an open site not a clique and shouldn't be relying on unwritten rules. I don't think this is a matter of courtesy either - Kyebosh didn't post images to give away which entry was his, he simply posted some alternatives. There are alternative ideas for VP pictures all over the net. I would like to make an assumption (which may be sadly misplaced) that anyone interested in improving their photography would already be exploring the work of others and the general body of information and ideas out there for all to see and take inspiration from.
If we, as a community, overwhelmingly prefer not to see any outtakes until after the challenge is over (let's run a poll or have SC decide, either way is fine by me) then let's make it an actual rule. If we don't want to make it a rule I don't think we should arbitrarily make someone into a scapegoat for frustrations about the issue.
And yes, I also feel the TONE of the posts by GeneralE and OSS were unecessarily rude, harsh and unwarranted.
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08/10/2004 04:48:57 AM · #62 |
So yea, the moral of the story is, I'll probably resort to posting any outtakes/rejects until after the challenge voting begins.
Anyhow, I finally found a worthy vanishing point, it's somewhat cliche, but I think it's unique enough that it just might work. Hell, I am considering getting this baby framed. |
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08/10/2004 04:49:10 AM · #63 |
Originally posted by Kavey:
And yes, I also feel the TONE of the posts by GeneralE and OSS were unecessarily rude, harsh and unwarranted. |
Here Here |
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08/10/2004 05:09:25 AM · #64 |
Originally posted by jonpink:
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
Maybe since he hasn't been around so long he should have asked if it was ok first or if it would offend anyone before starting a thread like this. |
WTF? Dudes can post whatever they like here as long as it's not rude or insulting to anyone. |
If we all stopped posted anything that might offend SOMEONE on the site the forums would be completely, utterly empty. Whatever it is, however innocuous, there will always be someone who takes offence. Some people actually seem to enjoy taking offence, enjoy getting all het up about something, anything. I'm not suggesting for a moment that you don't have cause to be upset but this site is a diverse community and not everyone feels the same about everything. Kyebosh didn't break any rules as they are stated, nor was he rude to anyone. That some have taken offence is hardly his fault since he's not a psychic!
Originally posted by jonpink:
If you don't like seeing pictures before a challenge, simply do not look at them. The title is pretty self explanatory "Vanishing point: non entered pics, post in here!" |
Very good point. Having a debate about whether threads like this should occur or not is fine. Let that become a point of discussion on a general thread which looks at what most community members would prefer. If a rule is created, THEN run in with machetes raised. But until then, those who don't like seeing outtakes before hand can simply USE the title of the thread as intended and avoid it.
Originally posted by jonpink:
And General, it's not the posters fault that he/she may receive more feedback than you. If you want feedback you must seek it as they do sometimes by posting on the forums or other sites for that matter. |
I agree. The forums are here to allow us to discuss images and to ask for opinions on them. Some people make use of them (and get extra feedback) and others don't (and don't).
Whether or not outtakes should be posted before challenge is over is one thing. Complaining that an individual gets more feedback by asking for it in forums than someone who doesn't strikes me as petty.
Message edited by author 2004-08-10 05:10:40.
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08/10/2004 06:20:54 AM · #65 |
Note: I didn't read the whole thread, my apologies if it was covered.
But I think kyebosh didn't realize the implications such a thread _could_ have. Not that it necessarily does, but it could really ruin someone's entry, or potential entry. I really don't think that was his intention(s), and the benefit of the doubt should be given.
Of course, I'd recommend not trying to justify one's actions as such if this is the case. Rather to simply admit the brain fart and leave it at that.
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08/10/2004 06:33:13 AM · #66 |
Jadin
I think it would have been easy to politely point out the implications of posting such a thread and leave it at that.
Given there is no rule about this whole issue I hardly think it's fair to refer to Kyebosh's decision to post as a "brain fart" (funny though that term is).
As to justifying anything - why is there a need to justify doing something that is not against the rules? If he had done something which was already against the rules, I'd agree with your point that an apology would be the best route to take.
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08/10/2004 06:48:50 AM · #67 |
My word choice wasn't supposed to offend. Only to show they weren't thinking about how it could potentially hurt.
Good point as to not against the rules.
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08/10/2004 07:52:18 AM · #68 |
No offence taken, not here at any rate.
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08/10/2004 08:09:28 AM · #69 |
Originally posted by jonpink:
And General, it's not the posters fault that he/she may receive more feedback than you. If you want feedback you must seek it as they do sometimes by posting on the forums or other sites for that matter. |
Right, and what do we do when no one submits to the challenges any more because the only way to get feedback is to start your own thread and keep it bumped up on the front page? What happens when even 30 such threads are started?
OUR "forum" for feedback on the Challenge Topic of the Week is IN THE CHALLENGE, not in the forums. The place to discuss alternates and outtakes in in the Challenge Results, in comparison to the results, not beforehand and hypothetically and prejudicially.
I don't understand why it's so hard to let topic-related photos be in the challenge, and post other stuff for comments if you're bored, but don't go poaching on the challenge entries' window of attention. We are not supposed to be discussing challenges entries before/during the voting. I don't see why doesn't mean all challenge-related photos.
It is a matter of courtesy, respect, and fairness. No one is saying you can't post your out-takes, just do it after the voting is over when there is NO chance of interfering with voting or commenting on the actual entries.
Message edited by author 2004-08-10 08:22:58. |
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08/10/2004 08:18:05 AM · #70 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by jonpink:
And General, it's not the posters fault that he/she may receive more feedback than you. If you want feedback you must seek it as they do sometimes by posting on the forums or other sites for that matter. |
Right, and what do we do when no one submits to the challenges any more because the only way to get feedback is to start your own thread and keep it bumped up on the front page? What happens when even 30 such threads are started?
I don't understand why it's so hard to let topic-related photos be in the challenge, and post other stuff for comments if you're bored, but don't go poaching on the challenge entries' window of attention. We are not supposed to be discussing challenges entries before/during the voting. I don't see why doesn't mean all challenge-related photos.
It is a matter of courtesy, respect, and fairness. No one is saying you can't post your out-takes, just do it after the voting is over when there is NO chance of interfering with voting or commenting on the actual entries. |
After reading this one thing suddenly came to mind...if they are outtakes and they weren't good enough to submit to the challenge why would you even want to bring attention to them other than to taint the outcome of the challenge.
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08/10/2004 08:19:32 AM · #71 |
Originally posted by Kavey:
Complaining that an individual gets more feedback by asking for it in forums than someone who doesn't strikes me as petty. |
Asking for individual feedback on a photo of "Topic X" when there is already an upcoming challenge on "Topic X" to which that photo is supposed to be submitted strikes me as selfish.
Can't I just have two entries too? Or maybe I'll post three or four images in the forums, and then I can get some really good advice about which one to submit. I mean, as long as it's BEFORE the voting commences, I can always take the photo which gets the best feedback and submit that; the majority of the voters probably won't have been prejudiced by the thread, and anyway it will be my best choice, right?
We allow people to do this OUTSIDE of DPC -- people post their images at pBase or something and then ask certain people to check them out. It's only recently that it's been becoming a worsening problem with people posting outtakes and alternates here, first during the voting, and now even earlier during the submission period.
Please allow those of us who just submit our on-topic photos to the challenges and wait during the week for our feedback to feel just a bit ripped-off. |
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08/10/2004 08:27:35 AM · #72 |
"Taint the outcome of the challenge"?
Did you really write/mean that?
Here's another image that uses the technique. It has a blue ribbon, it's been viewed near 2500 times, selected as a favourite 35 times, has 67 comments. It's not a secret, is it? What's the big deal about someone posting a few odd shots?
The sub-heading of this forum reads "Discuss the current challenge and how you feel about it or ideas you may haveâ€Â¦" Isn't that exactly what's going on here?
Not only are these suggestions that this is somehow wrong rather odd, they're diametrically opposed to a specific instruction on the site.
Ed
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08/10/2004 08:34:51 AM · #73 |
Originally posted by e301:
"Taint the outcome of the challenge"?
Did you really write/mean that?
Here's another image that uses the technique. It has a blue ribbon, it's been viewed near 2500 times, selected as a favourite 35 times, has 67 comments. It's not a secret, is it? What's the big deal about someone posting a few odd shots?
The sub-heading of this forum reads "Discuss the current challenge and how you feel about it or ideas you may haveâ€Â¦" Isn't that exactly what's going on here?
Not only are these suggestions that this is somehow wrong rather odd, they're diametrically opposed to a specific instruction on the site.
Ed |
Again that is like going back and looking at Macro 1, 2 and 3 before doing the challenge, it's an entirely different situation.
What was done here and more so with the title of the thread is offer everyone an opportunity to show what they didn't use for the challenge prior to the challenge taking place...that's like discussing what we won't be voting on by one person but might be by another person...but hey if you want I can post my outtakes too who cares if its the same subject matter as my entry....its still an outtake...and thats what is going to eventually happen and whoever does do that will say what's the difference its still an outtake.
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08/10/2004 09:19:44 AM · #74 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Right, and what do we do when no one submits to the challenges any more because the only way to get feedback is to start your own thread and keep it bumped up on the front page? What happens when even 30 such threads are started? |
I really can't see that happening. A lot of people post to compete for a ribbon and not for critique. This is a challenge site, not a critique site.
For critique try: renderosity.com where u get good comments, or photosig.com is another good one. I used to use these and they are pretty neat. I think if you want critique then submit the same shot to as many places as possible.
Originally posted by GeneralE:
It is a matter of courtesy, respect, and fairness. No one is saying you can't post your out-takes, just do it after the voting is over when there is NO chance of interfering with voting or commenting on the actual entries. |
I can see your point now (bit slow today) however, if you allow yourself to be influenced by an outtake that is your prerogative. I personaly will not vote train track images low just becasue I have seen one in this thread, and it would not stop me from submitting one either.
Message edited by author 2004-08-10 09:27:26. |
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08/10/2004 09:25:58 AM · #75 |
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
What was done here and more so with the title of the thread is offer everyone an opportunity to show what they didn't use for the challenge prior to the challenge taking place...that's like discussing what we won't be voting on by one person but might be by another person... |
Well that shouldn't make a difference should it? I mean if I critiqued his image (not that he asked for any critique) on this thread I would say something along the lines of:
"This is quite dull, the lighting is flat and nothing special and whilst it does meet the challenge criteria, it doesn't hold much lasting interest or aesthetic appeal to me - I give you a 4"
Now that doesn't mean that if your submitted a train track image that i would vote or see it in the same way. Your could be taken at exactly the same point but at dawn with a nice orange glow and sunrays breaking through the trees - in which case I would give you a 10.
Likewise for the same reason it should not stop anyone from submitting a train track shot if they had yet to take it.
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