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08/05/2004 12:32:37 PM · #26 |
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08/05/2004 01:12:35 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by bobt:
I am a registered republican that voted for Perrot in 92, Dole in 96, Bush in 2000 - but supported McCain in the primaries. In 2004, for the first time, I dont know who will get my vote. I look at Bush and seriously question if he knows what he is doing. I dont know who said it, but lately I been thinking alot about this quote, "I didnt leave the party, the party left me."
-bob |
you are either going to vote for the devil you know, or the devil you don't know. Either way its still going to be a mess no matter who is the president, if Kerry becomes president all that will really change is who we make fun of and criticize for this country being a mess.
James |
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08/05/2004 02:17:34 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by bdobe:
Thelsel, the least you can do is post my complete quote... but since you won't be doing me any favors, let me make it easier on you. Here's what I wrote:
Originally posted by bdobe:
Here's what I believe the Osama Bin Laden quote demonstrates about Mr. Bush's policies: the elective Iraq war distracted us from the war against Al Queda, and diverted personnel and weaponry from the Afghan-Pakistan border, which allowed Osama Bin Landen to get away. Thus, Mr. Bush flip flopped on an explicit promise made to the American people. |
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There was no need to include your entire quote because like I said, I donât care what you âbelieveâ. My response was refuting what was earlier presented as factual information. Debunking what you read between the lines is completely different then debunking what is actually quoted in the Presidentâs statements.
Originally posted by bdobe:
So, looks as if you've given up defending our Flip Flopper-in-Chief and, in stead, choose to muddy-up the issue by coming after me. |
Apparently you didnât read the rest of my post. At the bottom of my post I debunked yet another supposed flip-flop. You know the one where a quote about the FY2004 budget was some how flip-flopped by a quote about the FY2005 budget. I would have loved to debunk more but I was waiting to see if we were going to analyze the actual quotes or your beliefs. Oh, and explain to me again how refusing to go off on a tangent from the facts is mudding-up the issues and coming after you? Saying your âbeliefsâ are irrelevant while arguing the contents of direct quotes is not a personal attack, itâs just true. Whoâs mudding-up the issues now?
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08/05/2004 02:54:21 PM · #29 |
RonB, would it be fair to sum-up your point as follows: the charge of whether a candidate flip flopped is silly and, at root, misleading; because real world issues are always more nuanced than the opposition allows for. I liked your example of negotiating for the best price on a car. No one in everyday day life thinks in terms of, Oh, he's a flip flopper. In stead, we recognize that negotiations require give and take; and, know, that compromise is the glue of our representative system. I just hope that those that so unthinkingly use the label against Mr. Kerry would draw the same conclusion. But, alas, I think that's hoping for too much.
Now...
Originally posted by bobt:
I am a registered republican that voted for Perrot in 92, Dole in 96, Bush in 2000 - but supported McCain in the primaries. In 2004, for the first time, I dont know who will get my vote. I look at Bush and seriously question if he knows what he is doing. I dont know who said it, but lately I been thinking alot about this quote, "I didnt leave the party, the party left me."
-bob |
Don't worry, to quote Mr. Kerry, "Help is on the way." |
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08/05/2004 03:00:34 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
Originally posted by bdobe:
Thelsel, the least you can do is post my complete quote... but since you won't be doing me any favors, let me make it easier on you. Here's what I wrote: |
Yes he has done that to me in another thread. Very anoying way of pulling the Fox way of doing biz. |
bdobe,
I didnât include your entire quote because it was completely irrelevant to the original issue and my response to that issue. We werenât discussing your âbeliefsâ we were discussing facts. So, I included the fist few word of your response âHere's what I believeâ to start my rebuttal of why your beliefs werenât relevant to my argument.
MadMordegon,
I did it to you in the other post solely to reduce the size of my post. People wonât read my response if it takes up half the page. Besides, the text in question was not needed since my rebuttal included both a link to the text as well as an invitation for people to read the sources for themselves. I had nothing to hide as you implied. But since you have the art of changing subjects down, I assume you already realized that. And youâre correct, I do have a âvery annoying way of pulling the Fox way of doing bizâ. I take a fair and balanced look at the facts without interjecting a bunch of leftwing BS. |
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08/05/2004 03:32:38 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by bdobe:
Don't worry, to quote Mr. Kerry, "Help is on the way." |
Now, John Edwards says, âHope is on the wayâ and John Kerry says, âHelp is on the wayâ. Which one is it, âhopeâ or âhelpâ? Theyâre two different things. Iâm confused if the Democrats going to âHopeâ or âHelpâ. Is this a flip-flop? Oh well, I guess us Republicans will be turning the corner and we're not going back. |
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08/05/2004 04:04:26 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by bdobe:
RonB, would it be fair to sum-up your point as follows: the charge of whether a candidate flip flopped is silly and, at root, misleading; because real world issues are always more nuanced than the opposition allows for. I liked your example of negotiating for the best price on a car. No one in everyday day life thinks in terms of, Oh, he's a flip flopper. In stead, we recognize that negotiations require give and take; and, know, that compromise is the glue of our representative system. I just hope that those that so unthinkingly use the label against Mr. Kerry would draw the same conclusion. But, alas, I think that's hoping for too much. |
No, that wouldn't be fair. I DO believe that in some instances flip-flop is not a term that is appropriate - for example, those in which decisions are made based on information at hand, not principle. I would hope that principles change very little if at all. And by "information at hand" I do NOT mean polling data. The general purpose of electing representatives is the belief that they will represent our best interests, not our opinions, and without the need for polls. We assume that they have access to more information than we do, and that they are, thus, in a better position to decide issues wisely. |
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08/05/2004 04:06:17 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by thelsel:
Now, John Edwards says, "Hope is on the way" and John Kerry says, "Help is on the way". Which one is it, "hope" or "help"? They're two different things. I'm confused if the Democrats going to "Hope" or "Help". Is this a flip-flop? Oh well, I guess us Republicans will be turning the corner and we're not going back. |
Thelsel, though staunchly rigid, I find your approach to issues interesting and illuminating as to how Mr. Bush's supporters think. However, I think you're straining a bit too much simply to find something to criticize Mr. Kerry and Mr. Edwards with. How can anyone find fault with providing "Help" and "Hope"? I would say that the two go hand-in-hand, and are not mutually exclusive. |
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08/05/2004 04:17:48 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by thelsel:
And youâre correct, I do have a âvery annoying way of pulling the Fox way of doing bizâ. I take a fair and balanced look at the facts without interjecting a bunch of leftwing BS. |
LMAO |
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08/05/2004 04:23:54 PM · #35 |
Message edited by author 2004-08-09 21:43:01. |
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08/05/2004 04:30:24 PM · #36 |
lol
It would be cooler if you had taken the shot tho :) |
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08/05/2004 04:56:54 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by thelsel:
Originally posted by bdobe:
Don't worry, to quote Mr. Kerry, "Help is on the way." |
Now, John Edwards says, âHope is on the wayâ and John Kerry says, âHelp is on the wayâ. Which one is it, âhopeâ or âhelpâ? Theyâre two different things. Iâm confused if the Democrats going to âHopeâ or âHelpâ. Is this a flip-flop? Oh well, I guess us Republicans will be turning the corner and we're not going back. |
Oh, I get it now, two Americas, two slogans. But I wonder which one gets the help and which one just gets to hope? |
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08/05/2004 05:34:16 PM · #38 |
All right, now for something a bit more light-hearted, here's the latest Bushism:
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we," Bush said. "They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
//news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040805/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bushism
Yes, he simply misspoke -- but it's still funny. |
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08/05/2004 05:41:23 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by bdobe:
All right, now for something a bit more light-hearted, here's the latest Bushism:
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we," Bush said. "They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
//news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040805/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bushism
Yes, he simply misspoke -- but it's still funny. |
Hmmm. It seems to me that, at the time, the attacks on 9/11 were a "new" way to harm our country and our people. Perhaps if we had taken the time to think about new ways to harm our country and our people BEFORE 9/11, we could have imagined those kinds of attacks and prevented them. Now that we are thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, I have more confidence that we can and will prevent at least some of the attacks now in the planning stage. Maybe Bush didn't misspeak, after all. |
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08/05/2004 05:59:25 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by bdobe:
Thelsel, though staunchly rigid, I find your approach to issues interesting and illuminating as to how Mr. Bush's supporters think. However, I think you're straining a bit too much simply to find something to criticize Mr. Kerry and Mr. Edwards with... |
Itâs the only way I can get you to respond to my posts. Itâs obvious you donât want to argue the original subject of the thread. Both RonB and I have punched holes in ALL eight of the supposed flip-flops in this thread. Yet no one else wants to counter our points. Didnât the website you copied them from post the responses yet? No wonder you find my âapproach to issues interesting and illuminating as to how Mr. Bush's supporters thinkâ.
[Insert diversionary tactic here]
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08/05/2004 06:02:14 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Hmmm. It seems to me that, at the time, the attacks on 9/11 were a "new" way to harm our country and our people. Perhaps if we had taken the time to think about new ways to harm our country and our people BEFORE 9/11, we could have imagined those kinds of attacks and prevented them. Now that we are thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, I have more confidence that we can and will prevent at least some of the attacks now in the planning stage. Maybe Bush didn't misspeak, after all. |
Funny...
RonB, your spin is masterful... it's deja'vu all over again, Peace is War, and War is Peace... Orwell sure was prescient.
Perhaps the Bush White House can put your talents to use; since all Mr. McClellan could muster is the truth:
White House spokesman Scott McClellan said Bush's misstatement "just shows even the most straightforward and plain-spoken people misspeak."
The man misspoke, as he often does. Enough said -- it was a light-hearted jab, using one of Mr. Bush's most recognizable quirks, the frequency with which he misspeaks, a.k.a., "Bushisms." |
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08/05/2004 06:05:48 PM · #42 |
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08/05/2004 06:15:35 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by bdobe:
Originally posted by RonB:
Hmmm. It seems to me that, at the time, the attacks on 9/11 were a "new" way to harm our country and our people. Perhaps if we had taken the time to think about new ways to harm our country and our people BEFORE 9/11, we could have imagined those kinds of attacks and prevented them. Now that we are thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, I have more confidence that we can and will prevent at least some of the attacks now in the planning stage. Maybe Bush didn't misspeak, after all. |
Funny...
RonB, your spin is masterful... it's deja'vu all over again, Peace is War, and War is Peace... Orwell sure was prescient.
Perhaps the Bush White House can put your talents to use; since all Mr. McClellan could muster is the truth:
White House spokesman Scott McClellan said Bush's misstatement "just shows even the most straightforward and plain-spoken people misspeak."
The man misspoke, as he often does. Enough said -- it was a light-hearted jab, using one of Mr. Bush's most recognizable quirks, the frequency with which he misspeaks, a.k.a., "Bushisms." |
I know that he misspoke. I was just having some fun with my response. But, just to be fair, Mr. Kerry misspeaks, too. Why just the other night in Taylor, Mich., Kerry noted that he had just come from Bowling Green but apparently forgot that he had arrived in the state of the Ohio Buckeyes' most bitter rival, the University of Michigan Wolverines. The nickname of the Bowling Green team he had celebrated hours earlier also seemed to escape him. "We just came from Bowling Green, and I was smart enough not to pick a choice between the Falcons and the, you know . . . all the other teams out there. I just go for Buckeye football, that's where I'm coming out." As a smattering of boos alerted him to his faux pas, Kerry tried to right his wrong: "That's while I was in Ohio. Now I'm in the state of Michigan, and your great big 'M' and a powerhouse of a team, and the bottom line is all of us are still waiting for Massachusetts to somehow get in there."
???
Ron
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08/05/2004 06:18:44 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by thelsel:
Originally posted by bdobe:
Thelsel, though staunchly rigid, I find your approach to issues interesting and illuminating as to how Mr. Bush's supporters think. However, I think you're straining a bit too much simply to find something to criticize Mr. Kerry and Mr. Edwards with... |
It's the only way I can get you to respond to my posts. It's obvious you don't want to argue the original subject of the thread. Both RonB and I have punched holes in ALL eight of the supposed flip-flops in this thread. Yet no one else wants to counter our points. Didn't the website you copied them from post the responses yet? No wonder you find my "approach to issues interesting and illuminating as to how Mr. Bush's supporters think".
[Insert diversionary tactic here] |
I think I made the point I intended to make. If you can't discern it, it's not my fault. Frankly, I'm not interested in protracted tit-for-tats on points that are secondary, or even tertiary. We'll just have to live with the knowledge that, two fellow Americans see the world -- or at the very least, our nation --, and the man* that would lead it, in starkly different hues.
*Hopefully someday soon we'll be debating on whether "X" woman makes a strong Commander-in-Chief.
Message edited by author 2004-08-05 18:22:44.
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08/05/2004 06:24:48 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by RonB:
I know that he misspoke. I was just having some fun with my response. |
Yeah, I picked up on the fact that you were having fun with it, and gave you credit for it -- it was funny. And, I was sincere when I mentioned that the Bush White House could put your talents to use.
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08/05/2004 06:26:56 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by bdobe:
All right, now for something a bit more light-hearted, here's the latest Bushism:
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we," Bush said. "They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
//news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040805/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bushism
Yes, he simply misspoke -- but it's still funny. |
Hmmm. It seems to me that, at the time, the attacks on 9/11 were a "new" way to harm our country and our people. Perhaps if we had taken the time to think about new ways to harm our country and our people BEFORE 9/11, we could have imagined those kinds of attacks and prevented them. Now that we are thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, I have more confidence that we can and will prevent at least some of the attacks now in the planning stage. Maybe Bush didn't misspeak, after all. |
Ron the liberal slayer does it again!
RonB, itâs funny how you always seem to come up with the same thing I was thinking. Now if I could just type faster:)
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08/05/2004 06:42:25 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by bdobe:
I think I made the point I intended to make. If you can't discern it, it's not my fault. Frankly, I'm not interested in protracted tit-for-tats on points that are secondary, or even tertiary. |
Iâm sorry, I didnât realize you made a point:) The last thing I discerned was some second or tertiary point you âbelievedâ to be true. At least you didnât disappoint me with the diversionary tactic. |
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08/05/2004 06:50:00 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by thelsel:
I'm sorry, I didn't realize you made a point:) The last thing I discerned was some second or tertiary point you "believed" to be true. At least you didn't disappoint me with the diversionary tactic. |
Since you need help, here's my point:
Originally posted by bdobe:
[T]he charge of whether a candidate flip flopped is silly and, at root, misleading; because real world issues are always more nuanced than the opposition allows for... No one in everyday day life thinks in terms of, Oh, he's a flip flopper. In stead, we recognize that negotiations require give and take; and, know, that compromise is the glue of our representative system. I just hope that those that so unthinkingly use the label against Mr. Kerry would draw the same conclusion. But, alas, I think that's hoping for too much. |
No diversion, I just know when I'm wasting my time.
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08/05/2004 07:06:42 PM · #49 |
Bush can not even admit when he's wrong, such as about the WMD in Iraq...he flips his reasoning for invading Iraq to human rights issues, as if his administration is so concerned about the lives of human beings other than his own immediate world. Such hypocracy when we already have scandals such as Abu Gharaib and Guantanamo Bay. Just today the Guardian of London has an article about the possiblity of war crimes committed by the US in Guantanamo concerning the Tipton Three.
Article here. |
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08/05/2004 07:23:08 PM · #50 |
Are you just going to ignore the atrocities that Kerry committed in Vietnam? Kerry's personal actions are just as bad, if not worse, than the violations committed at Abu Gharaib. Was Bush over there personally violating POW rights?
"There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions" --John Kerry
Listen to Kerry say it himself...
Message edited by author 2004-08-05 19:23:55. |
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