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06/18/2004 01:16:23 AM · #1 |
The scenario is this: You take a vertical shot, you load it on to the computer. In a Windows XP folder, you can left click and "Rotate Clockwise," or "Rotate Counter Clockwise." If you rotate an original does it mess up the EXIF data? Would it be considered "edited?" Or is it fine to rotate images all you want?
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06/18/2004 01:33:57 AM · #2 |
I don't see an option to rotate an image using XP Explorer. Is that what you mean when you say "in a Windows XP folder", that you are right clicking on .jpg using Explorer?
In Photoshop you can rotate it from the "browse" thingy, but it doesn't modify the .jpg itself (nor the EXIF). It retains the setting somewhere else even if you exit PS and go back in, but the .jpg is not modified. I thought the setting would be stored in the "thumbs.db" file in the same folder but that file isn't modified either. Must be stored somewhere else.
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06/18/2004 01:34:11 AM · #3 |
Originally posted by Zoomdak:
The scenario is this: You take a vertical shot, you load it on to the computer. In a Windows XP folder, you can left click and "Rotate Clockwise," or "Rotate Counter Clockwise." If you rotate an original does it mess up the EXIF data? Would it be considered "edited?" Or is it fine to rotate images all you want? |
I just opened two instances of ExifRead, loaded one with an image that had not been rotated, and one with the same image after rotating it with XP. The Exif data was altered significantly, several of the fields were trashed and displayed nothing but garbage. From that I will certainly not be rotating any originals.
Here is the before Exif:
Filename : P5160132.JPG
JFIF_APP1 : Exif
Main Information
ImageDescription : OLYMPUS DIGITAL CAMERA
Make : OLYMPUS OPTICAL CO.,LTD
Model : C720UZ
Software : 34-1034
DateTime : 2004:05:16 03:28:25
Sub Information
ExposureTime : 1/8Sec
FNumber : F3.4
ExposureProgram : Program Normal
ISOSpeedRatings : 200
ExifVersion : 0210
DateTimeOriginal : 2004:05:16 03:28:25
DateTimeDigitized : 2004:05:16 03:28:25
ExposureBiasValue : EV0.0
MaxApertureValue : F2.8
MeteringMode : Division
Flash : Not fired
FocalLength : 23.50(mm)
UserComment :
ExifImageWidth : 1984
ExifImageHeight : 1488
Vendor Original Information
Mode : Normal
Quality : 2
Macro Mode : Off
Digital Tele : X 1.00
SoftwareVersion : D4034
CameraID : OLYMPUS DIGITAL CAMERA
Flash Mode : Fill
Bracket bias (EV) : 0/256
Focus Mode : AF
ZoomPosition : 29
Sharpness : NORMAL2
WhiteBalance : Auto
Red WB Bias : 244,64
Blue WB Bias : 508,64
Serial Number : 107464566
FlashStrengthBiasValue : EV+-0
Contrast : NORMAL
Image Width : 1984
Image Height : 1488
and here is the after Exif:
Filename : P5160132.JPG
JFIF_APP1 : Exif
Main Information
ImageDescription : OLYMPUS DIGITAL CAMERA
Make : OLYMPUS OPTICAL CO.,LTD
Model : C720UZ
Software : 34-1034
DateTime : 2004:05:16 03:28:25
Sub Information
ExposureTime : 1/8Sec
FNumber : F3.4
ExposureProgram : Program Normal
ISOSpeedRatings : 200
ExifVersion : 0210
DateTimeOriginal : 2004:05:16 03:28:25
DateTimeDigitized : 2004:05:16 03:28:25
ExposureBiasValue : EV0.0
MaxApertureValue : F2.8
MeteringMode : Division
Flash : Not fired
FocalLength : 23.50(mm)
UserComment :
ExifImageWidth : 1488
ExifImageHeight : 1984
Vendor Original Information
Mode : Unknown (793603371)
Quality : 2
Macro Mode : Off
Digital Tele : X -0.99
SoftwareVersion : ¦\ÃÃ/
CameraID : .")šìRÃ#¢ åGÃÂO¿5>Â¥n"¶ûSÃììò
Flash Mode : Fill
Bracket bias (EV) : 624454578/1631289976
Focus Mode : AF
ZoomPosition : 29
Sharpness : NORMAL2
WhiteBalance : Auto
Red WB Bias : 244,64
Blue WB Bias : 508,64
Serial Number : ÃXž?
ªROÃB© {Ã,Ãà %ZRù=÷ý*k«I
FlashStrengthBiasValue : EV0.1
Contrast : NORMAL
Image Width : 1984
Image Height : 1488
I do not know if the fields that are trashed are important for verification or not, but I would guess they are since it includes camera identification fields.
David
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06/18/2004 02:10:45 AM · #4 |
Originally posted by ChrisW123:
I don't see an option to rotate an image using XP Explorer. Is that what you mean when you say "in a Windows XP folder", that you are right clicking on .jpg using Explorer?
In Photoshop you can rotate it from the "browse" thingy, but it doesn't modify the .jpg itself (nor the EXIF). It retains the setting somewhere else even if you exit PS and go back in, but the .jpg is not modified. I thought the setting would be stored in the "thumbs.db" file in the same folder but that file isn't modified either. Must be stored somewhere else. |
That's odd, I have that option. I wonder what it was I installed that gave it to me.
In Photoshop the changes in the browser are stored in a special folder at 'Documents and Settings/user/Application Data/Adobe/FileBrowser'. If you want the information to be stored in the folder the pictures are in (so you can move it around with the images, such as onto a CD) use the Export Cache menu option in the File Browser. It will place three files in the folder with the images.
David
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06/18/2004 02:19:18 AM · #5 |
In XP I've got that option in My Pictures.....it's called Windows Picture and Fax Viewer. It comes up when you click on a single photo or - right click on an image it's one of the options offered to open the pic. The rotate icon is one of the ones along the bottom of the photo.
and yes I noticed that it altered the exif info ....after I'd rotated an image that I was planning to enter into a challenge :( and I'd rotated the original, not a copy! Dumb mistake!
sue
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06/18/2004 02:37:34 AM · #6 |
Originally posted by suemack:
In XP I've got that option in My Pictures.....it's called Windows Picture and Fax Viewer. It comes up when you click on a single photo or - right click on an image .... |
Hmm, probably because you don't have Photoshop and/or the "file type" you have specified for ".jpg" files is not Photoshop. So, since your file type is set to "Windows Picture" or whatever, Windows automatically adds a rotate option in the right-click menu when you are on a .jpg file.
To check, in Explorer go to Tools > Folder Options, and the click on the File Types tab. Then hightlight the "JPG" file type and see what it says under "Opens with:". Probably says "Windows Picture", right? If you have Photoshop and want to change it to PS, hit the "Change" button.
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06/18/2004 03:43:30 AM · #7 |
I think it's a sub-function of window piture and fax viewer. And I can rotate in file, which is easier than going through photoshop. I've also got "Thumber" on my computer, so I probably could go through that, because it specializes in EXIF data and image handeling. Are there anybody from the "inside" of DPC that would know, like a SC.
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06/18/2004 03:53:17 AM · #8 |
Differences are in italics
Before:
Report generated by Thumber 3.35 on Thursday, June 17, 2004 11:21:59 pm
**** DSC03819.JPG, 2,211,218 Bytes ****
*JPEG/APP12 Information*
Date: Thursday, Jun 17, 2004
Time: 9:00:13 pm
Quality: 2 bpp (1:12)
Image Size: 2560 x 1920 pixels
Print Resolution: 72 pixels per inch
Print Size: 35.56 x 26.67 inches
Shutter: 1/ 500 sec
Aperture: F4.5
Zoom: x4.0
Macro: --
Flash: Off
JPEG Quality:
*EXIF Header Information*
Tag Pos Data Pos Description = Value (II)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
**** IFD Number 0 ****
0x010E 0x0016 0x0092 ImageDescription =
0x010F 0x0022 0x00B2 Make = SONY
0x0110 0x002E 0x00B8 Model = CYBERSHOT
0x0112 0x003A 0x0042 Orientation = 1
0x011A 0x0046 0x00D0 XResolution = 72/1
0x011B 0x0052 0x00D8 YResolution = 72/1
0x0128 0x005E 0x0066 ResolutionUnit = 2
0x0132 0x006A 0x00E0 DateTime = 2004:06:17 21:00:13
0x0213 0x0076 0x007E YCbCrPositioning = 2
0x8769 0x0082 0x008A ExifOffset = 232
**** IFD Number 1 ****
0x0103 0x02B6 0x02BE Compression = 6
0x010F 0x02C2 0x0332 Make = SONY
0x0110 0x02CE 0x0338 Model = CYBERSHOT
0x0112 0x02DA 0x02E2 Orientation = 1
0x011A 0x02E6 0x0350 XResolution = 72/1
0x011B 0x02F2 0x0358 YResolution = 72/1
0x0128 0x02FE 0x0306 ResolutionUnit = 2
0x0132 0x030A 0x0360 DateTime = 2004:06:17 21:00:13
0x0201 0x0316 0x031E JPEGInterchangeFormat = 873
0x0202 0x0322 0x032A JPEGInterchangeFormatLength = 3270
**** EXIF sub-IFD ****
0x829A 0x00F6 0x023E ExposureTime = 10/5000
0x829D 0x0102 0x0246 FNumber = 45/10
0x8822 0x010E 0x0116 ExposureProgram = 2
0x8827 0x011A 0x0122 ISOSpeedRatings = 100
0x9000 0x0126 0x012E ExifVersion = 48, 50, 50, 48
0x9003 0x0132 0x024E DateTimeOriginal = 2004:06:17 21:00:13
0x9004 0x013E 0x0262 DateTimeDigitized = 2004:06:17 21:00:13
0x9101 0x014A 0x0152 ComponentsConfiguration = 1, 2, 3, 0
0x9102 0x0156 0x0276 CompressedBitsPerPixel = 2/1
0x9204 0x0162 0x027E ExposureBiasValue = -3/ 10
0x9205 0x016E 0x0286 MaxApertureValue = 33/16
0x9207 0x017A 0x0182 MeteringMode = 5
0x9208 0x0186 0x018E LightSource = 0
0x9209 0x0192 0x019A Flash = 0
0x920A 0x019E 0x028E FocalLength = 323/10
0x927C 0x01AA 0x01B2 MakerNote = (HEX)
0xA000 0x01B6 0x01BE FlashPixVersion = 48, 49, 48, 48
0xA001 0x01C2 0x01CA ColorSpace = 1
0xA002 0x01CE 0x01D6 ExifImageWidth = 2560
0xA003 0x01DA 0x01E2 ExifImageLength = 1920
0xA005 0x01E6 0x01EE InteroperabilityOffset = 650
0xA300 0x01F2 0x01FA FileSource = 3
0xA301 0x01FE 0x0206 SceneType = 1
0xA401 0x020A 0x0212 Unknown = 0
0xA402 0x0216 0x021E Unknown = 0
0xA403 0x0222 0x022A Unknown = 0
0xA406 0x022E 0x0236 Unknown = 0
**** Interoperability IFD ****
0x0001 0x0298 0x02A0 InteroperabilityIndex = R98
0x0002 0x02A4 0x02AC InteroperabilityVersion = 48, 49, 48, 48
After:
Report generated by Thumber 3.35 on Thursday, June 17, 2004 11:22:38 pm
**** DSC03819.JPG, 2,186,730 Bytes ****
*JPEG/APP12 Information*
Date: Thursday, Jun 17, 2004
Time: 9:00:13 pm
Quality: 2 bpp (1:12)
Image Size: 1920 x 2560 pixels
Print Resolution: 72 pixels per inch
Print Size: 26.67 x 35.56 inches
Shutter: 1/ 500 sec
Aperture: F4.5
Zoom: x4.0
Macro: --
Flash: Off
JPEG Quality:
*EXIF Header Information*
Tag Pos Data Pos Description = Value (II)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
**** IFD Number 0 ****
0x010E 0x0016 0x00C2 ImageDescription =
0x010F 0x0022 0x00E2 Make = SONY
0x0110 0x002E 0x00E8 Model = CYBERSHOT
0x0112 0x003A 0x0042 Orientation = 1
0x011A 0x0046 0x00F2 XResolution = 72/1
0x011B 0x0052 0x00FA YResolution = 72/1
0x0128 0x005E 0x0066 ResolutionUnit = 2
0x0132 0x006A 0x0102 DateTime = 2004:06:17 21:00:13
0x0213 0x0076 0x007E YCbCrPositioning = 2
0x8769 0x0082 0x008A ExifOffset = 266
0xA401 0x008E 0x0096 Unknown = 0
0xA402 0x009A 0x00A2 Unknown = 0
0xA403 0x00A6 0x00AE Unknown = 0
0xA406 0x00B2 0x00BA Unknown = 0
**** IFD Number 1 ****
0x0103 0x027E 0x0286 Compression = 6
0x010F 0x028A 0x02FA Make = SONY
0x0110 0x0296 0x0300 Model = CYBERSHOT
0x0112 0x02A2 0x02AA Orientation = 1
0x011A 0x02AE 0x030A XResolution = 72/1
0x011B 0x02BA 0x0312 YResolution = 72/1
0x0128 0x02C6 0x02CE ResolutionUnit = 2
0x0132 0x02D2 0x031A DateTime = 2004:06:17 21:00:13
0x0201 0x02DE 0x02E6 JPEGInterchangeFormat = 802
0x0202 0x02EA 0x02F2 JPEGInterchangeFormatLength = 3249
**** EXIF sub-IFD ****
0x829A 0x0118 0x0224 ExposureTime = 10/5000
0x829D 0x0124 0x022C FNumber = 45/10
0x8822 0x0130 0x0138 ExposureProgram = 2
0x8827 0x013C 0x0144 ISOSpeedRatings = 100
0x9000 0x0148 0x0150 ExifVersion = 48, 50, 50, 48
0x9003 0x0154 0x0234 DateTimeOriginal = 2004:06:17 21:00:13
0x9004 0x0160 0x0248 DateTimeDigitized = 2004:06:17 21:00:13
0x9101 0x016C 0x0174 ComponentsConfiguration = 1, 2, 3, 0
0x9102 0x0178 0x025C CompressedBitsPerPixel = 2/1
0x9204 0x0184 0x0264 ExposureBiasValue = -3/ 10
0x9205 0x0190 0x026C MaxApertureValue = 33/16
0x9207 0x019C 0x01A4 MeteringMode = 5
0x9208 0x01A8 0x01B0 LightSource = 0
0x9209 0x01B4 0x01BC Flash = 0
0x920A 0x01C0 0x0274 FocalLength = 323/10
0x927C 0x01CC 0x01D4 MakerNote = (HEX)
0xA000 0x01D8 0x01E0 FlashPixVersion = 48, 49, 48, 48
0xA001 0x01E4 0x01EC ColorSpace = 1
0xA002 0x01F0 0x01F8 ExifImageWidth = 1920
0xA003 0x01FC 0x0204 ExifImageLength = 2560
0xA300 0x0208 0x0210 FileSource = 3
0xA301 0x0214 0x021C SceneType = 1
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06/18/2004 03:59:02 AM · #9 |
David, niether do I know if the changes made are important or not.
Suemak, I'm sorry, you can still submit it, just if it requires a admin note (more likely not), will you photo come into question. Even then, you may still get by (depending on whether the EXIF data changes are that major or not).
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06/18/2004 04:11:11 AM · #10 |
Be aware of that option: JPEG decrease quality on rotation!
The only program I know that rotate JPEG in a lossless way is ACDSee: It rotate the coeficients that define each jpeg block, not pixel by pixel, so image size is exactly the same and the image quality is 100% the original. |
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06/18/2004 04:34:45 AM · #11 |
thanks guys.....that was a couple of challenges ago now. My lesson....I learned to work with a copy not the original :D
sue |
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06/18/2004 04:37:53 AM · #12 |
Am I correct in thinking, working on the original then saving as something else cannot alter the original?
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06/18/2004 04:46:23 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by peecee:
Am I correct in thinking, working on the original then saving as something else cannot alter the original? |
Yes, but why take the risk of an errant 'save', instead of the safe 'save as'. If the original is important to you, only open copies in an editor.
David
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06/18/2004 04:53:11 AM · #14 |
Yeah, but how much? Minimal
Small File (in Bytes):
Size: 144,522 ... After 1 rotation: 144,146
Bigger File: 1,834,916 ... After 2 rotations: 1,834,877 After 4 Rotations: 1,833,733
Not a big decrease if file size, which is directly linked to image quality.
I think that's right peecee. Or at least that is what I always do. =)
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06/18/2004 04:55:38 AM · #15 |
Originally posted by bitfarmer:
Be aware of that option: JPEG decrease quality on rotation!
The only program I know that rotate JPEG in a lossless way is ACDSee: It rotate the coeficients that define each jpeg block, not pixel by pixel, so image size is exactly the same and the image quality is 100% the original. |
That is not entirely true. I just rotated another image, this time inside ACDSee 6.0 with very similar corruption of the Exif data I had with the earlier rotate. It may well keep the image intact, but not the meta-data.
As a note, ACDSee is the default program for jpg files on my system. It is entirely possible the rotate option in Window's Explorer I have are extensions of ACDSee.
David
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06/18/2004 09:26:03 AM · #16 |
I would strongly caution against using the OS (or any other software) to rotate the "original". If it's rotated, it is not the original. If SC has evidence that the file has been rewritten after being opened in software (which is what's being done here), we cannot validate that it has not been otherwise edited. The result must be DQ, we have no choice.
BTW, other than aesthetic reasons, why would one want to rotate the original?? Originals don't need to be pretty, they are your unedited backup files.
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06/18/2004 10:13:55 AM · #17 |
It is a pretty widely known shortcoming of Windows XP that it's default .JPG viewer, Windows Picture and Fax Viewer, disrupts EXIF data when it rotates images. Canon and Minolta (and likely others) have warnings about this on their websites and included with new cameras.
Originally posted by bitfarmer:
The only program I know that rotate JPEG in a lossless way is ACDSee: It rotate the coeficients that define each jpeg block, not pixel by pixel, so image size is exactly the same and the image quality is 100% the original. |
Jasc's Paint Shop Photo Album will also do this, and keeps the EXIF data. DiMage Viewer (comes with Minolta cameras) will too. I'm sure there are others as well that will rotate an image without decreasing file size/image quality, or losing EXIF data. However it is unlikely that any program will do this without altering, or adding to, EXIF in a detectable manner.
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06/18/2004 11:07:14 AM · #18 |
Originally posted by Zoomdak:
Yeah, but how much? Minimal
Small File (in Bytes):
Size: 144,522 ... After 1 rotation: 144,146
Bigger File: 1,834,916 ... After 2 rotations: 1,834,877 After 4 Rotations: 1,833,733
Not a big decrease if file size, which is directly linked to image quality.
I think that's right peecee. Or at least that is what I always do. =) |
The problem is not that you loose bytes, even if the number of bytes doesn't change, the jpeg have been decompressed, rotated, and recompresed, so you get more artifacts than in the original pic.
ACDSee may be also corrupt EXIF info, I don't know, but it doesn't recompress the jpeg, so image quality ramain intact: If you rotate if 4 times, you get to the original image EXACTLY, you can not get this even in PS, and also it is very fast doing so (because it doesn't recompress), so I only use ACDSee for image rotation and folder managing. |
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06/18/2004 11:26:31 AM · #19 |
| irfanview and (i think) qimage can do lossless jpeg transformations. I'm not sure if they manipulate exif data. |
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06/18/2004 12:53:05 PM · #20 |
If you just want to view the original for the first time in the correct rotation (to decide if you want it or not), but then don't "save" the rotation -- does this cause the correction to the metadata being spoken of, or only if you say "Yes, save that rotation".
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06/18/2004 12:56:36 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by Kylie:
If you just want to view the original for the first time in the correct rotation (to decide if you want it or not), but then don't "save" the rotation -- does this cause the correction to the metadata being spoken of, or only if you say "Yes, save that rotation". |
No, in order to have any effect, you have to save the change. In any case, you should make copies of your originals to work on, so in case you accidently "save" instead of "save as" you will still have another copy elsewhere.
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06/18/2004 04:50:03 PM · #22 |
Ah, I'm glad I asked. No more rotating in Windows XP. What about rotating in camera (anything done in camera is acceptable), would that decrease quality at all (I would think not)? Or can you rotate in camera and have it rotated the same on the computer as well (I just tried it and the ones I rotated in camera came out unrotated on the the computer.)
What program doesn't disrupt EXIF data, with something like a rotation, or resizing (if possible)?
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06/18/2004 04:55:35 PM · #23 |
I use ACDSee, but haven't put it to the DQ test yet! My Kodak also rotates in the camera automatically.
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06/18/2004 06:04:42 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by Zoomdak:
Ah, I'm glad I asked. No more rotating in Windows XP. What about rotating in camera (anything done in camera is acceptable), would that decrease quality at all (I would think not)? Or can you rotate in camera and have it rotated the same on the computer as well (I just tried it and the ones I rotated in camera came out unrotated on the the computer.)
What program doesn't disrupt EXIF data, with something like a rotation, or resizing (if possible)? |
Are you using POS sensor mode? |
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06/18/2004 07:01:14 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by Zoomdak:
...Or can you rotate in camera and have it rotated the same on the computer as well (I just tried it and the ones I rotated in camera came out unrotated on the the computer.)... |
When you do in-camera rotation, the camera just writes the rotation in the file header. It does not re-write the file. Most 'pooter software does not pick up on the rotation flag.
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