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06/11/2004 06:25:49 PM · #1 |
Gay activist Larry Kramer writes:
Our murderer is dead. The man who murdered more gay people than anyone in the entire history of the world, is dead. More people than Hitler even.
Was Ronny personally having anal sex with millions of guys behind our backs? How else could he have MURDERED them? I guess this a sly way of saying the six billion dollars spent on AIDS research during his administration wasn't enough. Yet, all these years (and administrations) later, we still have no cure. And truthfully, how many viruses in the world have a cure? Besides how much money has Larry Kramer contributed to a cure? God forbid someone take some responsibility for their own actions. People got AIDS on their own. Ronny and the government didn't give it to them.
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06/11/2004 07:37:01 PM · #2 |
That guy has some serious drama issues. I suppose he's mad that it wasn't until two years after the virus had be identified that the government earmarked serious funds or that he didn't mention it in speeches until the late 80's. More likely though, he bought into the propaganda and actually believes all the rhetoric the gay community churned out in the 80's. Complete garbage.
BTW: Where was that written?
Message edited by author 2004-06-11 19:38:19. |
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06/11/2004 07:59:40 PM · #3 |
| Another Reagan rant? Aren't you tired? Do some photos for change.... |
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06/11/2004 08:46:14 PM · #4 |
There was a local piece in the paper today by some lame ass liberal + gay activist claiming how he was to blame for the deaths of thousands and thousands of gays in the 80's and was the sole reason for the problem of the homeless...
I think certain writers need to turn the lights on while they are stuck up their ass so far! |
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06/12/2004 12:34:20 AM · #5 |
Originally posted by TechnoShroom:
BTW: Where was that written? |
It's in July issue of the Los Angles Advocate. Also, found the article
here. |
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06/12/2004 01:17:55 AM · #6 |
[quote=thelsel] Gay activist Larry Kramer writes:
Our murderer is dead.
Figures. Just another person who doesn't want to take responsibility for his own actions and instead wants to blame someone else. Gays are responsible for spreading AIDS, not Reagan, and now many people are suffering from it. And this a$$hole wants to blame a dead president instead of his own "practices". Grrrrrrr.
Reagan came from another era and may have been "insensitive" to the problem at the time, but I'm sick and tired of the blame game. Take responsibility for your actions, Larry.
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06/12/2004 01:44:20 AM · #7 |
When I think of AIDS I am usually reminded by memories of Ryan White.
Neither gay nor responsible for the spread of AIDS. One of the highlights of Ryan's short life was attending an Oscar party as the guest of Ronald and Nancy Reagan.
Ryan White's Testimony before the President's Commission on AIDS
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06/12/2004 04:51:13 AM · #8 |
Originally posted by thelsel:
Originally posted by TechnoShroom:
BTW: Where was that written? |
It's in July issue of the Los Angles Advocate. Also, found the article
here. |
After reading this drivel I have to wonder if this guy even believes what is coming off of his keyboard or if he is just trying to cause controversy to promote his own political agenda. |
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06/12/2004 12:27:43 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by ChrisW123:
[quote=thelsel] Gay activist Larry Kramer writes:
Our murderer is dead.
Figures. Just another person who doesn't want to take responsibility for his own actions and instead wants to blame someone else. Gays are responsible for spreading AIDS, not Reagan, and now many people are suffering from it. And this a$$hole wants to blame a dead president instead of his own "practices". Grrrrrrr.
Reagan came from another era and may have been "insensitive" to the problem at the time, but I'm sick and tired of the blame game. Take responsibility for your actions, Larry. |
Interesting how often all you conservative gay-bashers seem obsessed with "assholes" in your posts. :D
By the way, AIDS is responsible for the spread of aids, and gay people didn't "give " it to the straight world.
There have been many times more heterosexual people with aids, spreading aids, ( with OUR straight type of sexual behaviour), dying from aids than gay people, as if such a "blame game" mattered, as you say.
You conservatives are such amazing hypocrites. Look at what you write! Chris, you chastize a fellow for blaming someone else, then in the same breath, YOU BLAME SOMEONE ELSE! :D
And what, pray tell, is wrong with criticizing a president - who is the guy who is supposed to be the main responsible guy in the country, when he truly screwed the pooch?
Jesse Helms - Reagans ally on this issue - admitted that his greatest regret from office was his opposition to aids research and money for patients.
Frankly, many people with aids might be alive today if it weren't for Reagan. Maybe. Murderer in that context is a rather strong word.
But Murderer hits the nail on the head when it comes to his legacy in Central America. |
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06/12/2004 02:23:44 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by gingerbaker:
Originally posted by ChrisW123:
[quote=thelsel] Gay activist Larry Kramer writes:
Our murderer is dead.
Figures. Just another person who doesn't want to take responsibility for his own actions and instead wants to blame someone else. Gays are responsible for spreading AIDS, not Reagan, and now many people are suffering from it. And this a$$hole wants to blame a dead president instead of his own "practices". Grrrrrrr.
Reagan came from another era and may have been "insensitive" to the problem at the time, but I'm sick and tired of the blame game. Take responsibility for your actions, Larry. |
Interesting how often all you conservative gay-bashers seem obsessed with "assholes" in your posts. :D
By the way, AIDS is responsible for the spread of aids, and gay people didn't "give " it to the straight world.
There have been many times more heterosexual people with aids, spreading aids, ( with OUR straight type of sexual behaviour), dying from aids than gay people, as if such a "blame game" mattered, as you say.
You conservatives are such amazing hypocrites. Look at what you write! Chris, you chastize a fellow for blaming someone else, then in the same breath, YOU BLAME SOMEONE ELSE! :D
And what, pray tell, is wrong with criticizing a president - who is the guy who is supposed to be the main responsible guy in the country, when he truly screwed the pooch?
Jesse Helms - Reagans ally on this issue - admitted that his greatest regret from office was his opposition to aids research and money for patients.
Frankly, many people with aids might be alive today if it weren't for Reagan. Maybe. Murderer in that context is a rather strong word.
But Murderer hits the nail on the head when it comes to his legacy in Central America. |
If you can call the President a murderer, because he was in office when the Contra/Sandinista rebellion occurred, why not spread the blame equally among all those who worked in/for or held shares in any of the companies that manufactured/sold/distributed the weapons and munitions, including those that manufactured/sold/distributed machetes or supplied the funds for purchasing such? That would, of course, include those who owned U.S. Savings Bonds, U.S. Treasury Bonds, stock in the Banks that provided financing to Penn-Texas Corporation ( owners of Colt Firearms ) and others, NYSE index funds, etc. Neither Reagan nor any of the aforementioned shareholders actually pulled the triggers/swung the machetes, but if you choose to blame Reagan, why not include blame for all the others?
Ron |
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06/12/2004 02:34:41 PM · #11 |
Whether AIDS be a "gay" or "straight" disease is irrelevant to me. Blaming a president is ludicrous.
I've known 3 or 4 "gay" men that have died with AIDS (and one is currently dying now), and a "straight" man that died from it, and one woman that has it. In each of those cases, the responsibility for contracting AIDS was their own responsibility. The gay men I knew had sexual involvement with other men that they knew were HIV positive or already had AIDS(and I'm sorry, that's just not bright), or even several other men. And the straight man was married, but insisted on running around with all kinds of women. The woman contracted it from a pusher who was giving her free drugs. (I don't think those were real bright either).
How is a president, or a conservative, or a liberal, or a fish in the pond responsible for that?
If you have sex with someone you know has AIDS, especially repeatedly, you will probably get it. If you have AIDS, and you have sex, you will probably give it to someone else. If you are living a high risk lifestyle (several partners, IV drug use, et. etc.), you run the risk of getting it.
I don't think that was Reagan's fault.
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06/12/2004 02:38:23 PM · #12 |
And now, a friendly reminder from karmat the SC member --
The rant forum is here to sound off and voice opinions. You still need to maintain a certain level of decorum and respect for your fellow posters.
Please proceed.
(And before anyone asks or accuses me of something, let me add that, no, I haven't seen any violations yet, but with any conversation that has to do with politics and sexual orientation, it tends to digress and get dirty. Throw in religion, and we'll probably have to lock this puppy! :-P)
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06/12/2004 02:43:12 PM · #13 |
I thought the rant forums were unmoderated? Sometimes it seems that way with all of the bashing.
Originally posted by karmat:
And now, a friendly reminder from karmat the SC member --
The rant forum is here to sound off and voice opinions. You still need to maintain a certain level of decorum and respect for your fellow posters.
Please proceed.
(And before anyone asks or accuses me of something, let me add that, no, I haven't seen any violations yet, but with any conversation that has to do with politics and sexual orientation, it tends to digress and get dirty. Throw in religion, and we'll probably have to lock this puppy! :-P) |
Message edited by author 2004-06-12 14:43:53. |
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06/12/2004 02:47:13 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by jimmyn4:
I thought the rant forums were unmoderated? Sometimes it seems that way with all of the bashing.
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They still have to abide with and follow the Terms of Service that everyone agreed to when they signed up. Unmoderated does not mean a free for all.
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06/12/2004 05:37:14 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Whether AIDS be a "gay" or "straight" disease is irrelevant to me. Blaming a president is ludicrous.
I've known 3 or 4 "gay" men that have died with AIDS (and one is currently dying now), and a "straight" man that died from it, and one woman that has it. In each of those cases, the responsibility for contracting AIDS was their own responsibility. The gay men I knew had sexual involvement with other men that they knew were HIV positive or already had AIDS(and I'm sorry, that's just not bright), or even several other men. And the straight man was married, but insisted on running around with all kinds of women. The woman contracted it from a pusher who was giving her free drugs. (I don't think those were real bright either).
How is a president, or a conservative, or a liberal, or a fish in the pond responsible for that?
If you have sex with someone you know has AIDS, especially repeatedly, you will probably get it. If you have AIDS, and you have sex, you will probably give it to someone else. If you are living a high risk lifestyle (several partners, IV drug use, et. etc.), you run the risk of getting it.
I don't think that was Reagan's fault. |
I agree with you, Karmat, none of those particular actions are Reagans fault, of course.
On the other hand, I am not ready to say all gay people shouldn't be having sex. By that logic, nobody in Thailand or most of Africa deserves treatment either, I guess?
What I , and others, critize is that Reagan denied monies to fight the desease in order to please the religious right, despite the enormous public health ramifications.
If a member of your family comes down with Parkinson's, and in the future, stem cells become the cure, but they are too late for your family member because off W's stricture against scientific research using this material, you might feel the same way as Mr Kaplan?
Reagan had a public Health responsibility to provide enough funding to meet the challenge of the largest and most deadly public health epidemic the world has seen since the flu of 1920. And he did nothing because he thought, incorrectly, that it was relegated to gay men. He did nothing because he was a bigot, I think.
Message edited by author 2004-06-12 17:46:33. |
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06/12/2004 05:54:22 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by RonB:
[quote=gingerbaker] [quote=ChrisW123] [quote=thelsel] Gay activist Larry Kramer writes:
Our murderer is dead.
If you can call the President a murderer, because he was in office when the Contra/Sandinista rebellion occurred, why not spread the blame equally among all those who worked in/for or held shares in any of the companies that manufactured/sold/distributed the weapons and munitions, including those that manufactured/sold/distributed machetes or supplied the funds for purchasing such? That would, of course, include those who owned U.S. Savings Bonds, U.S. Treasury Bonds, stock in the Banks that provided financing to Penn-Texas Corporation ( owners of Colt Firearms ) and others, NYSE index funds, etc. Neither Reagan nor any of the aforementioned shareholders actually pulled the triggers/swung the machetes, but if you choose to blame Reagan, why not include blame for all the others?
Ron |
Because the others were making a factory product with no intent?
Reagan was making an illegal war, using monies from illegally selling missiles to terrorists who held U.S. citizens captive. What a great guy!
These monies supported death squads who slaughtered approx. 200,000 children, women, and old men in Central America.
I find evil pretty easy to recognize sometimes.
Message edited by author 2004-06-12 17:55:11. |
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06/14/2004 10:17:55 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by ChrisW123:
Gays are responsible for spreading AIDS, not Reagan, and now many people are suffering from it. |
Oh that's rich. I suppose that the 40% of the population infected with AIDS in the worst-stricken African countries are all homosexuals. Or that huge numbers of fags were traveling to the lost continent and buggering the entire populace in an attempt to spread it?
Could it be, if money had been afforded to research an emerging problem, that the 'spread' itself could have been prevented? Maybe people call Reagan a murderer because it was his government that chose to ignore the first signs of a global epidemic in the making because it was 'only' happening to homosexuals.
Is there no possible world in which gays could have been protected by government-funded studies resulting in clear safer sex guidelines, vaccines and drugs, or simply increased awareness, protecting everyone else in the bargain? I guess not, 'cause you know... they're gay! Not me! Not me! It'll never happen to me!
Reagan wasted valuable YEARS due to the prejudice of the religious right. Years that the virus was allowed to spread unchecked. Years of people dying. Years that don't just go away after we finally turned around and realized that this is everyone's problem, not just 'the gays'. We are still feeling the effect of those years. We always will.
I don't say he's a murderer, but I will blame him for this mistake. Even presidents can make mistakes! And this was a doozy.
- Mousie, happily not spreading AIDS for 33 years.
Message edited by author 2004-06-14 22:20:05.
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06/15/2004 12:25:48 AM · #18 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
[quote=ChrisW123] Gays are responsible for spreading AIDS, not Reagan, and now many people are suffering from it. |
Originally posted by Mousie:
Oh that's rich. I suppose that the 40% of the population infected with AIDS in the worst-stricken African countries are all homosexuals. Or that huge numbers of fags were traveling to the lost continent and buggering the entire populace in an attempt to spread it? |
Well gee Mousie, do you think it would be wise for the population in the "worst-stricken African countries" to keep it in their pants and stop spreading the desease, or would that be "to restrictive" for them to have to do? Why don't they put a condom on, or better yet, stop breading like flies to further the desease and poverty in general? And with gays, I'm talking about the USA not Africa. Reagan was from America, not Africa.
Originally posted by Mousie:
Could it be, if money had been afforded to research an emerging problem, that the 'spread' itself could have been prevented? Maybe people call Reagan a murderer because it was his government that chose to ignore the first signs of a global epidemic in the making because it was 'only' happening to homosexuals. |
I think anyone that calls Reagan a murderer for AIDS, or Phillip Morris a murderer for cancer deaths, or McDonalds a murderer for making someone fat, is a person who doesn't take responsibility for THEIR OWN ACTIONS. Take responsibility, the government isn't (nor is meant to be) your mommy and daddy.
Originally posted by Mousie:
Is there no possible world in which gays could have been protected by government-funded studies resulting in clear safer sex guidelines, vaccines and drugs, or simply increased awareness, protecting everyone else in the bargain? I guess not, 'cause you know... they're gay! Not me! Not me! It'll never happen to me! |
It was the start of the epedemic and it takes time for those "protections" to kick in and for government to react. I hate to say it, but there are consiquences of "deviant" behaviour. This isn't a hatefull statement, but a true statement and a fact of nature. I don't condem nor condon gay activity. I believe gays do not choose their sexuality, but I DO believe there are consiquences (not by God), that are just natural consiquences of out of the norm things like this.
Originally posted by Mousie:
Reagan wasted valuable YEARS due to the prejudice of the religious right. Years that the virus was allowed to spread unchecked. Years of people dying. Years that don't just go away after we finally turned around and realized that this is everyone's problem, not just 'the gays'. We are still feeling the effect of those years. We always will. |
Well you are probably right he didn't react fast enough but I think calling him a murderer (not you) is like the teapot calling the kettle black. After the first signs of this showing up in the gay community back then, don't you think that gays should have said to themselves, well gee, maybe we shouldn't go to the bath-house tonight and have sex with 10 other people, and instead be monogamous and use a rubber until we find out what is going on? But no, we can't do that.
Originally posted by Mousie:
I don't say he's a murderer, but I will blame him for this mistake. Even presidents can make mistakes! And this was a doozy. |
Well all presidents make mistakes. But PEOPLE need to take responsibility also. I don't know about you, but I don't need another mom and dad, I already have them (knock on wood). :)
Message edited by author 2004-06-15 00:26:21. |
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06/15/2004 12:54:44 AM · #19 |
it's been 16 years since reagan and billions upon billions of dollars spent on research vaccines, meds, and still nothing has been found to cure/prevent hiv/aids
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06/15/2004 12:13:56 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
- Mousie, happily not spreading AIDS for 33 years. |
That's not surprising, since AIDS is a syndrome, not a disease - you can't spread AIDS.
And although you CAN spread HIV, there is still no conclusive evidence that HIV causes AIDS. However, there is empirical evidence that shows a positive correlation between the use of intravenous and recreational drugs, anti-HIV drugs, and malnutrition, with AIDS. This correlation has been ignored by most researchers - probably because it suggests that prevention / treatment would a) not require billions of dollars in research grants, and b) not require the development of new, expensive drugs.
For those interested, see This Article. Note: this link points to a PDF file ( requires Adobe Acrobat Reader ).
Ron |
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06/15/2004 12:24:00 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Mousie:
- Mousie, happily not spreading AIDS for 33 years. |
That's not surprising, since AIDS is a syndrome, not a disease - you can't spread AIDS.
And although you CAN spread HIV, there is still no conclusive evidence that HIV causes AIDS. However, there is empirical evidence that shows a positive correlation between the use of intravenous and recreational drugs, anti-HIV drugs, and malnutrition, with AIDS. This correlation has been ignored by most researchers - probably because it suggests that prevention / treatment would a) not require billions of dollars in research grants, and b) not require the development of new, expensive drugs.
For those interested, see This Article. Note: this link points to a PDF file ( requires Adobe Acrobat Reader ).
Ron |
Ron, here you and I are in 100% agreement, for a change. I commend you on your enlightened and progressive (notice I didn't say liberal lol) stand. |
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06/15/2004 12:38:55 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Ron, here you and I are in 100% agreement, for a change. I commend you on your enlightened and progressive (notice I didn't say liberal lol) stand. |
Agreement acknowledged and gratefully accepted. I hope that I can reciprocate soon and often.
Ron |
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06/15/2004 12:49:06 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Ron, here you and I are in 100% agreement, for a change. I commend you on your enlightened and progressive (notice I didn't say liberal lol) stand. |
Agreement acknowledged and gratefully accepted. I hope that I can reciprocate soon and often.
Ron |
I guess you could call it a miracle, but it's kinda like lighting striking the same place twice...lol. Anyway, I do hope we can agree more often. |
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06/15/2004 02:03:02 PM · #24 |
Have we grown tired of bashing Bush? We must now bash dead republicans for things they did 20 years ago?
Well, I'm going to start a post bashing George Washington. That SOB owned slaves! |
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06/16/2004 12:16:38 AM · #25 |
Originally posted by ChrisW123:
Originally posted by Mousie:
[quote=ChrisW123] Gays are responsible for spreading AIDS, not Reagan, and now many people are suffering from it. |
Originally posted by Mousie:
Oh that's rich. I suppose that the 40% of the population infected with AIDS in the worst-stricken African countries are all homosexuals. Or that huge numbers of fags were traveling to the lost continent and buggering the entire populace in an attempt to spread it? |
Well gee Mousie, do you think it would be wise for the population in the "worst-stricken African countries" to keep it in their pants and stop spreading the desease, or would that be "to restrictive" for them to have to do? Why don't they put a condom on, or better yet, stop breading like flies to further the desease and poverty in general? And with gays, I'm talking about the USA not Africa. Reagan was from America, not Africa. |
Here's my guess: Just like our own government, little effort was made (AKA complete denial) by their governments to get information out to the population, giving HIV that much longer to spread completely unchecked. There's that pesky delay between infection and full blown symptoms of AIDS that allows HIV to spread undetected for a long time. Are poorly educated, subsistance-living, rural Africans supposed to understand what's bearing down on them and change *existing* behavior when nothing of this sort has occurred in their history? How about insufficiently educated Americans?
Originally posted by ChrisW123:
Originally posted by Mousie:
Could it be, if money had been afforded to research an emerging problem, that the 'spread' itself could have been prevented? Maybe people call Reagan a murderer because it was his government that chose to ignore the first signs of a global epidemic in the making because it was 'only' happening to homosexuals. |
I think anyone that calls Reagan a murderer for AIDS, or Phillip Morris a murderer for cancer deaths, or McDonalds a murderer for making someone fat, is a person who doesn't take responsibility for THEIR OWN ACTIONS. Take responsibility, the government isn't (nor is meant to be) your mommy and daddy. |
When someone knows better and does not act, it's negligent. I find it intruiging that the government should not protect us from negligence since it's not my mommy or daddy, but it's totally okay for the government to tell me what relationships I can and can't have, like my mommy or daddy.
Originally posted by ChrisW123:
Originally posted by Mousie:
Is there no possible world in which gays could have been protected by government-funded studies resulting in clear safer sex guidelines, vaccines and drugs, or simply increased awareness, protecting everyone else in the bargain? I guess not, 'cause you know... they're gay! Not me! Not me! It'll never happen to me! |
It was the start of the epedemic and it takes time for those "protections" to kick in and for government to react. I hate to say it, but there are consiquences of "deviant" behaviour. This isn't a hatefull statement, but a true statement and a fact of nature. I don't condem nor condon gay activity. I believe gays do not choose their sexuality, but I DO believe there are consiquences (not by God), that are just natural consiquences of out of the norm things like this. |
There are consequences to all behavior, "deviant" or not. What is your point? Are you trying to state that there are always *specific* and *bad* consequences attached to "deviant" behavior, some sort of dire warning to tow the party line or get struck down?
Originally posted by ChrisW123:
Originally posted by Mousie:
Reagan wasted valuable YEARS due to the prejudice of the religious right. Years that the virus was allowed to spread unchecked. Years of people dying. Years that don't just go away after we finally turned around and realized that this is everyone's problem, not just 'the gays'. We are still feeling the effect of those years. We always will. |
Well you are probably right he didn't react fast enough but I think calling him a murderer (not you) is like the teapot calling the kettle black. After the first signs of this showing up in the gay community back then, don't you think that gays should have said to themselves, well gee, maybe we shouldn't go to the bath-house tonight and have sex with 10 other people, and instead be monogamous and use a rubber until we find out what is going on? But no, we can't do that. |
Well gee, I've never been to a bathhouse in my life, let alone for sex with 10 people! I'll cop to having been to a spa and having an hour long massage after a soak in a hot tub, but the masseuse was a chick so don't get any ideas.
If I understand my history, weren't heterosexuals the ones who coined 'free love'? I seem to recall hearing about a lot of promiscuity on both sides of the fence. You know, the pill, the sexual revolution, all that good stuff. What you're calling deviant was practically a cultural norm until HIV came along and spoiled the party. The hangover after the binge. What does this have to do with specifically gay behavior, apart from trying to tie homosexulaity to promiscuity?
Who exactly was informing people about the 'first signs' that were vague and which nobody understood? Who's job would it be to do so? Who didn't?
Thankfully, it's nice hearing that you think I'm probably right about Reagan's government not reacting fast enough. Since that was my only point.
Originally posted by ChrisW123:
Originally posted by Mousie:
I don't say he's a murderer, but I will blame him for this mistake. Even presidents can make mistakes! And this was a doozy. |
Well all presidents make mistakes. But PEOPLE need to take responsibility also. I don't know about you, but I don't need another mom and dad, I already have them (knock on wood). :) |
You keep coming back to your point that people need to take responsibility for themselves. I'm not sure what this has to do with anything I've said, since I agree with you and did not even discuss culpability. However, I do not think this excuses the actions of a government that could have done something and did not.
Message edited by author 2004-06-16 00:28:44.
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