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06/07/2004 11:18:02 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Can you give me specific examples with specific groups and specific laws that you are referring to? Do you have specific monetary amounts that are spent by these groups and who they are paying this money to?
Originally posted by Russell2566:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
These big companies that perpetrate these business policies and actions also pay out big money to politicians to push through laws that they want passed and in general corrupt the democratic process in the US. |
I'm curious, do you have an equal problem with the Extreme left special interests groups that get laws passed in the exact same manor? i.e. over bearing or stupid enviroment laws, gun laws, ineffective punishments or related laws, life style related issues...
It's pretty hypocritical of you to not take take equal issue with both isn't it, or is it OK, because you aggree with their adgenda? |
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Absolutly I do, are you actualy trying to tell me you think I'm lying? Thats sad if you think I am... Tommorrow when I have some time I'll try and write something up. Till then I'm off to bed. Moring comes in about 5 hours for me... |
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06/07/2004 11:20:34 PM · #27 |
| About the multinational companies, it's called globalization my friend, it is happening weather we like it or not, and as it is a new thing for you and me, there are lots of abnormalities in it, both you and I like and don't like. But I hope as we get used to it and as someone said above there will be more or less equal oportunities everywhere, things will settle. As for government involvment or corruption I agree with you that is happening too but it happens everywhere. That has been so every since democracys exist as a side effect of it, and I don't see it going away too soon. I belive it is going to exist for ever in onje form or another, the same way there will always be criminals, terrorists and such... |
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06/07/2004 11:28:46 PM · #28 |
I"m not accusing you of lying, Russell. It's just I need some specifics to respond to your questions.
Originally posted by Russell2566:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Can you give me specific examples with specific groups and specific laws that you are referring to? Do you have specific monetary amounts that are spent by these groups and who they are paying this money to?
Originally posted by Russell2566:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
These big companies that perpetrate these business policies and actions also pay out big money to politicians to push through laws that they want passed and in general corrupt the democratic process in the US. |
I'm curious, do you have an equal problem with the Extreme left special interests groups that get laws passed in the exact same manor? i.e. over bearing or stupid enviroment laws, gun laws, ineffective punishments or related laws, life style related issues...
It's pretty hypocritical of you to not take take equal issue with both isn't it, or is it OK, because you aggree with their adgenda? |
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Absolutly I do, are you actualy trying to tell me you think I'm lying? Thats sad if you think I am... Tommorrow when I have some time I'll try and write something up. Till then I'm off to bed. Moring comes in about 5 hours for me... |
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06/07/2004 11:38:08 PM · #29 |
There's nothing I like about corporate globalization. It's going to lead to corporations controlling world resources, including labor, water, and food and will only bring about equal opportunity for low paying wages while the few rich get richer and the poor will get only poorer. The environment will suffer and there will be no government powerful enough to stand up to the corporations. It will ultimately do away with the nation state as corporations will not have to obey local laws and ordinances. That has already happened. I do not want all aspects of my life controlled by corporate/monoculture, maybe you do.
Originally posted by frumoaznicul:
About the multinational companies, it's called globalization my friend, it is happening weather we like it or not, and as it is a new thing for you and me, there are lots of abnormalities in it, both you and I like and don't like. But I hope as we get used to it and as someone said above there will be more or less equal oportunities everywhere, things will settle. As for government involvment or corruption I agree with you that is happening too but it happens everywhere. That has been so every since democracys exist as a side effect of it, and I don't see it going away too soon. I belive it is going to exist for ever in onje form or another, the same way there will always be criminals, terrorists and such... |
Message edited by author 2004-06-07 23:41:42. |
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06/07/2004 11:38:42 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
If "shareholder's best interest" is the only factor being considered (as seems to be the current case in Corporate America) in corporate decision-making, then I'd say it's only a matter of time, regardless of current(ly disclosed) plans. |
Paul today most all U.S. citizens are "Corporate America". That's because we own almost every major company thru our 401K investments.
As owners, we already have the power to change.. we just need the will. |
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06/08/2004 12:03:57 AM · #31 |
I work very hard for every penny of my salary, and I make the money that I prove to the company that I'm worth. I went to college, I paid my own way there by working hard as well. However, the CEO of my company makes millions. Including stock options, he probably makes 200 times what I make. Buy you know what? He does his job at least 200 times better than I could do it. So, is he a thief, making absurd amounts of money he doesn't deserve? No. He's a man like I am, who works hard for his money. And he earns every penny.
However, if I go to the local grocery store, the unionized checker there makes almost as much as people in my department at work. Clearly, that is high above market value for that job. I worked as a checker for a while in college - it took me one week to learn every single nuance of the job. Do I think checkers are worth $25 or $30 an hour? No way. Do I think they don't deserve to support themselves or their families? No, I absolutely think they deserve to support themselves. They can go to college, too.
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06/08/2004 12:09:17 AM · #32 |
Originally posted by garrywhite2:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
If "shareholder's best interest" is the only factor being considered (as seems to be the current case in Corporate America) in corporate decision-making, then I'd say it's only a matter of time, regardless of current(ly disclosed) plans. |
Paul today most all U.S. citizens are "Corporate America". That's because we own almost every major company thru our 401K investments.
As owners, we already have the power to change.. we just need the will. |
None of "us" owns enough individual shares to have any influence, and our plans are "managed for us" by the same people I'm concerned about ... when the California Public Employees Retirement System (CalPERS) -- one of the largest shareholders in the country -- recently tried to get some shareholder resolutions considered they got nowhere ... that we own a "piece" of Corporate America is fine in theory but fails in practice to provide any protection for the ordinary worker who produces a productuct from the predations of the money manipulators who produce nothing of value, just money ... |
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06/08/2004 12:19:36 AM · #33 |
| I try to keep a positive perspective on it Paul. While it is true that today we lack the vehicle to take control of what we own, there is always tomorrow. Accepting responsiblity for what we own is the first step. |
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06/08/2004 12:21:09 AM · #34 |
How do you know the CEO of your company does his job 200 times better than you could? How would you feel if he eliminated your job for a foreign worker in another country because he would pay them half of your salary and not have to pay any benefits to that person?
How would you feel if, god forbid, you needed medical care, and the hospital got someone to care for you or do some proceedures from a person that was less qualified than other personnel, but could do the job for half the salary?
Where do you get market value from?
Originally posted by StevePax:
I work very hard for every penny of my salary, and I make the money that I prove to the company that I'm worth. I went to college, I paid my own way there by working hard as well. However, the CEO of my company makes millions. Including stock options, he probably makes 200 times what I make. Buy you know what? He does his job at least 200 times better than I could do it. So, is he a thief, making absurd amounts of money he doesn't deserve? No. He's a man like I am, who works hard for his money. And he earns every penny.
However, if I go to the local grocery store, the unionized checker there makes almost as much as people in my department at work. Clearly, that is high above market value for that job. I worked as a checker for a while in college - it took me one week to learn every single nuance of the job. Do I think checkers are worth $25 or $30 an hour? No way. Do I think they don't deserve to support themselves or their families? No, I absolutely think they deserve to support themselves. They can go to college, too. |
Message edited by author 2004-06-08 00:22:52. |
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06/08/2004 12:33:24 AM · #35 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
There's nothing I like about corporate globalization. It's going to lead to corporations controlling world resources, including labor, water, and food and will only bring about equal opportunity for low paying wages while the few rich get richer and the poor will get only poorer. The environment will suffer and there will be no government powerful enough to stand up to the corporations. It will ultimately do away with the nation state as corporations will not have to obey local laws and ordinances. That has already happened. I do not want all aspects of my life controlled by corporate/monoculture, maybe you do.
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You are probably right but that's not news you are telling me there, just our good old human self distructive nature.
Edit:
And about my life being runned by corporate or whatever monoculture, I'm pissed too about many aspects of it and I agree with you. I could go as far as giving you a good example of what I'm pissed about. Every since my country has to obey European Union rules, peasants here can no longer do what they do best. For example they do a home made drink called "palinka" verry good dring that got appreciated wordwide sort of like mexicans have theyr "tequilla". Well from next year it will be illegal to make drinks in your own backyard, because EU sais so. In other words, corporates, most probably multinational ones, will take away from the peasants theyr culture. I can give you 100's of other examples, but the question is can we really do something about it, and what?
Message edited by author 2004-06-08 00:47:08. |
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06/08/2004 01:09:42 AM · #36 |
That's a very good example, Frumoaznicul, of what globalization is doing to the common person. Corporations will dictate everything. Yes, we can do something about this...speak out and loudly, against what's going on. There have been huge demonstrations against globalization all over the world. As of late, all of the WTO meetings, and G8 meetings have been demonstrated against. Huge crowds of peaceful people came out against these organizations, as well as, organizations such as the International Monetary Fund, World Bank and others. The common person has to be part of the decision making processes of globalization before policies are in place.
Also, we have to let the corporations we buy from know that unless they are doing business in ethical ways, we will not support them or buy from them.
Originally posted by frumoaznicul:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
There's nothing I like about corporate globalization. It's going to lead to corporations controlling world resources, including labor, water, and food and will only bring about equal opportunity for low paying wages while the few rich get richer and the poor will get only poorer. The environment will suffer and there will be no government powerful enough to stand up to the corporations. It will ultimately do away with the nation state as corporations will not have to obey local laws and ordinances. That has already happened. I do not want all aspects of my life controlled by corporate/monoculture, maybe you do.
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You are probably right but that's not news you are telling me there, just our good old human self distructive nature.
Edit:
And about my life being runned by corporate or whatever monoculture, I'm pissed too about many aspects of it and I agree with you. I could go as far as giving you a good example of what I'm pissed about. Every since my country has to obey European Union rules, peasants here can no longer do what they do best. For example they do a home made drink called "palinka" verry good dring that got appreciated wordwide sort of like mexicans have theyr "tequilla". Well from next year it will be illegal to make drinks in your own backyard, because EU sais so. In other words, corporates, most probably multinational ones, will take away from the peasants theyr culture. I can give you 100's of other examples, but the question is can we really do something about it, and what? |
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06/08/2004 01:12:47 AM · #37 |
Interesting article here about how a major multinational company killed 2 union leaders in Columbia and forced to resign all members of the union.
This action by this company was protested by some shareholders and they got escorted out of the room when they peacefully brought up the issue in a shareholders' meeting. |
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06/08/2004 01:26:07 AM · #38 |
Originally posted by garrywhite2:
I try to keep a positive perspective on it Paul. While it is true that today we lack the vehicle to take control of what we own, there is always tomorrow. Accepting responsiblity for what we own is the first step. |
The only stock I own is through a mutual fund which screens all of the companies it invests in for degree of "social responsibility" -- wages, working conditions, anti-pollution/waste-reduction, etc. -- practiced beforehand ... so I personally am doing my best to support only companies whose values are at least on my side of the midline. I work for a non-profit drug treatment program, and a minority-owned commercial print shop. I put in over 12,000 of volunteer over several years at another health clinic for indigent adults. I have a kid graduating from First Grade this Friday. Anything else I need to be responsible for? :) |
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06/08/2004 01:45:53 AM · #39 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
That's a very good example, Frumoaznicul, of what globalization is doing to the common person. Corporations will dictate everything. Yes, we can do something about this...speak out and loudly, against what's going on. There have been huge demonstrations against globalization all over the world. |
Well I find myself agreeing with you for once. :) I'm for free enterprise and capitalizm, but our greedy politicains and corporate buddies have allowed corporations to screw the American people out of jobs that are now going to cheap labor overseas and by allowing an influx of cheap labor into the country, and for companies to move off shore with no reprecussions. And don't give me this crap (not you) about how companies are here to make profit, we know that and want FREE trade, but not UNFAIR trade! It's all about politicans (Bush) who are selling out our country and allowing big corps to scam people out of their life savings, to get unfair tax advantages by moving their jobs OUT of the country, and allowing BILLION DOLLAR DEFICIT trading with countries like China, India, Mexico, etc. all in the name of this great global economy vision and votes. So next month we will have frieght trucks from Mexico trucking in cheap crap from Mexico into the US, in addition to smuggling MORE illegal immagrants into our country, and also polluting our air (Mexico doesn't have pollution standards), causing accidents because they don't have the proper training and guildlines we have, and all of this in the name of "free trade". Bull crap, it isn't free trade when it's ONE SIDED (billion of dollars in deficit trading) against the US. Why is Bush prentending this is good for our country!
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
As of late, all of the WTO meetings, and G8 meetings have been demonstrated against. Huge crowds of peaceful people came out against these organizations, as well as, organizations such as the International Monetary Fund, World Bank and others. The common person has to be part of the decision making processes of globalization before policies are in place. |
NO GLOBALIZATION!!! Otherwise we are going to become a third world country! Corporations (large ones) will be the supreme winners in this, and the rest of the World will be the losers.
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Also, we have to let the corporations we buy from know that unless they are doing business in ethical ways, we will not support them or buy from them. |
Absolutely, never buy a foriegn made product ever! And boycott all companies that ship their job overseas. Tell them that you will NOT buy a thing from their company if you even suspect that they have an operation overseas. And don't listen to their story that they are doing this to be competitive and to survive. BS! They are doing it out of pure greed and they a shafting the American labor force in the process and have nooo problem doing it. And Bush is HELPING THEM DO IT!! Bush is selling out this country for his grand vision of when he will sit on a throne with Visenta Fox (mex. Pres) and drink tequila together.
NO MORE I SAY!! :p
Message edited by author 2004-06-08 01:50:43. |
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06/08/2004 01:54:17 AM · #40 |
Originally posted by Russell2566:
over bearing or stupid enviroment laws |
i dont belive in a world like it is today, if its pro-environment, there is such a thing.
Message edited by author 2004-06-08 01:56:04. |
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06/08/2004 02:58:43 AM · #41 |
I know nothing about this company beyond this press release, except the coffee is OK and -- even at Fair Trade prices -- about half what I pay for beans at Safeway.
Oakland Tribune
June 2, 2004
San Leandro-based San Francisco Bay Coffee Co. is celebrating the building of another school in Nicaragua, this time at the Santa Maura Coffee Farm.
The company, which sells coffee through Costco stores all over the West, is actively helping to improve the quality of life for workers at 17 of its Latin American coffee farms. The company's "Source Aid Development Program" guarantees that the farm receives more than the price mandated by Fair Trade, money that can be used to provide houses, schools, medicine, medical care, food, and even a baseball diamond and uniforms.
In one Mexican community, students are paid to attend school. They are given the amound the child would earn if [s]he was working in the fields. San Francisco Bay Coffee Co. has built eight schools and 41 classrooms in Mexico, Zambia, Nicaragua, Guatamala, Costa Rica, and Panama. The company is owned by the Rogers Family of Companies. |
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06/08/2004 03:28:03 AM · #42 |
Yes, but that's not all there is too it and as everything besides the bad parts it has lots of good parts too. As about the anti globalization meetings I have the feeling they are as naive and useless something can be. In the world we live today money is everything. It is so easy to pay a few guys that always mix with the peaceful crowds, and turn everything into the chaotic violent acts, we see on tv on allmost all those meetings. Money is power today my friend, and without them, you can't fight against it, you just can't because they will always pay those violent guys to discreditate your peaceful demonstrations. And when you will try another way of protest they will pay for something else to discreditate that too. Take it in this terms, the more money you have the better weapons you get. And who has them? They do. But thanks for bringing this up, I now answered a question I been asking myself for quite a while. That whas - why do someone who already has billions need more money? Well I guess I finaly came to an ideea about that.
Also I don't like any sort of extremist thoughts. I don't like to see only black and white. Globalization has it's good parts too. Probably as many good parts as bad parts. I belive nothing in this world is 100% good and nothing is 100% bad. Except god perhaps but I have doubts about that too.
More than everything else I am worried about the enviroment, but in that, I trust mother nature. No money has the power to beat her. I think with this global worming we see and feel today, she is only showing us her teeth, she is just warning us, but in the near future if we keep ignoring her, she will retaliate. I predict we will see such unexpected metheorological phenomenoms we never imagined before, and we will be lucky if the human species will even survive. I'm sure she will.
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
That's a very good example, Frumoaznicul, of what globalization is doing to the common person. Corporations will dictate everything. Yes, we can do something about this...speak out and loudly, against what's going on. There have been huge demonstrations against globalization all over the world. As of late, all of the WTO meetings, and G8 meetings have been demonstrated against. Huge crowds of peaceful people came out against these organizations, as well as, organizations such as the International Monetary Fund, World Bank and others. The common person has to be part of the decision making processes of globalization before policies are in place.
Also, we have to let the corporations we buy from know that unless they are doing business in ethical ways, we will not support them or buy from them.
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06/08/2004 06:15:05 AM · #43 |
I don't usually tread into the Rant forum but I am glad I dropped into this thread. First, apologies for a reaaaaallly long reply. All the spin from the left is making me dizzy... BTW in case anyone is wondering I consider myself a Libertarian with a right leaning tendency on fiscal policy and a left leaning tendency in social policy, so take this note with that grain of salt in mind.
GM - 3 bil in China
How about Rockford Il or Gary Indiana ?
Some of our cities are falling in third world shape while blue chips are taking the money away ! Sad...
I'd classify this as a smart investment by GM...if they don't make the investment in an up-and-coming economy like China, someone else will, and chances are Americans will see less of the money resulting in that investment.
As for Rockford, Il and Gary, Indiana, I'm assuming you are referring to the auto workers being employed and the local economies in those cities that depend on the factories. My answer is this: if a person or group of people wishes to be employed by a company, it is their responsibility to demonstrate value to that company. If a time comes where their value is less than their cost (i.e. someone else will do the job cheaper, or their job is replaced by a computer/machine) it is their responsibility to proactively seek training and education to renew their value, or to lower their cost (read: salary) to the company to make their labor worthwhile. The obligation of the company is to survive and profit and pass the profit to their shareholders. This goal is not achievable by paying above market value for labor, hence globalization.
What happens when the "bottom line" dictates that they start importing those Chinese vehicles at $2500 less than the ones made in Michigan?
Then the price conscious American consumer will see cheaper vehicles, triggering lower car costs (or its brother, increased car value at the same cost)
If "shareholder's best interest" is the only factor being considered (as seems to be the current case in Corporate America) in corporate decision-making, then I'd say it's only a matter of time, regardless of current(ly disclosed) plans.
it is only a matter of time, because the worldwide capitalistic market is Darwinist and only the most profitable companies will survive. Unless the market deviates radically from history and starts a pattern of buying that is completely different than today - for instance, consumers paying MORE for cars on the basis of where they were made, or making buying decisions on things other than cost.
I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. . . . Corporations have been enthroned, an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money-power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until the wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed.
Abraham Lincoln (1809 - 1865), quoted in Jack London's "The Iron Heel"
GeneralE - I find this quote ironically appropriate. Do you realize that the wealth is spread more evenly among the people today than when Lincoln made that statement? And that the Republic is a much stronger Union, both economically and as a world power? I do not wish to tear down the words of a great man in Lincoln but I must believe he would smile on the America he sees today. Our economy, even in this downturn is the strongest in the World. Corruption is like roaches, you can never kill it. I take the recent news of Enron’s and WorldCom’s as good news - we brought it into the light and are actually punishing those responsible, vs. past days when those people may have gone unpunished.
Yes, capitalism is built on competition, but the big companies which are getting bigger and bigger, are doing it because they somehow eliminate the competition and form oligopolies and monopolies, which are free then to charge whatever they want.
Somehow? Competition doesn't just vanish - it is defeated by superior price power, marketing, and business practice. Even when a monopoly forms, there is always competition in some form or fashion, waiting to fill the void should the incumbent slip. And monopolies are NOT free to charge whatever they want, there are several protections both in the Gov't and in the market to prevent this, such as the Sherman Act and our own self-denial of their product, or finding and buying from a competitor and accepting their products limitations in price, support, or features to avoid the monopoly.
I do this today with my cable, I buy from a local cable company that offers less channels than Time-Warner so that I don't have to give money to a large company that I have received poor service from. I accept the limitation and pay equal money for an inferior product, and I am OK with that. I find that most of the time when people moan about paying a monopoly for something they are either speaking hypothetically, don't know about the competition's offerings, or are not willing to accept the limitations of the competitions product or service. There is always an option.
There's nothing I like about corporate globalization. It's going to lead to corporations controlling world resources...
This is an extremely pessimistic viewpoint IMHO. Just out of curiosity, who should control "world resources?" "The People?" "The Government?"
...including labor, water, and food and will only bring about equal opportunity for low paying wages while the few rich get richer and the poor will get only poorer. The environment will suffer and there will be no government powerful enough to stand up to the corporations.
Define "control." Is the labor market not already under the control of corporations? Employment is a two-way street, and individuals have the ability to choose who they work for and what salary they demand.
If the environment suffers it is because the People are not willing to trade the money in their pocketbooks for products from companies that respect the environment. If "the People" voted enough with their wallets for products that were "green," all products would be green. It is not the fault of the corporation for delivering the product desired by the market - fault the People for not having the same values you hold for the environment.
The Government is just another word for the People. Until corporations can vote, they will never be as powerful as the People. Hence, Government (at least Representative Democracies like the USA) will always have the "power" to stand up to corporations. The point is that the power is better exercised by the Market and restrictions imposed by the Gov't are impediments to the Free Market exercising her will (note: I am in favor of limited Gov't regulation in certain areas)
These companies are far from being free from govt intervention. They pay alot of money to politicians to help pass laws for their benefit and to deregulate and privatize some industries. They also get huge tax breaks...
As is their right, granted to them by representatives elected by and serving for the People who put them in office and can remove them from office if they so choose...
Capitalism is built on competition of local markets, but what we have today is multinational companies controlling most of the markets and eliminating competition....
aka, the Free Market. Olyuzi - Please cite sources for capitalism being built on the competition of "local markets” Also define "local" in the age of the Internet...
Democratic governments are more beholden to these companies than the people of their respective countries because through corporation monies that they are paying out to politicians, they are getting elected and re-elected. Far from democracy or true capitalism. There is a tremendous amount of corruption now both in business and in government.
True statements. But it is this way because the People via the Market desire it to be so, and so it is. The People could change it if there was consensus otherwise...
None of "us" owns enough individual shares to have any influence, and our plans are "managed for us" by the same people I'm concerned about ... ... that we own a "piece" of Corporate America is fine in theory but fails in practice to provide any protection for the ordinary worker who produces a productuct from the predations of the money manipulators who produce nothing of value, just money ...
There are three solutions to this problem: 1) Become one of the "few" by hard work, luck, and vigilant money management, purchase enough stock to become and influencer. 2) Start your own company or work up the ranks of an existing one and influence from the inside. 3) Exert your influence in the Market externally by making smart buying decisions.
How do you know the CEO of your company does his job 200 times better than you could? How would you feel if he eliminated your job for a foreign worker in another country because he would pay them half of your salary and not have to pay any benefits to that person?
I would feel sad that I did not adapt my skills to a changing marketplace, and they I would start my own company so that I couldn't be fired.
How would you feel if, god forbid, you needed medical care, and the hospital got someone to care for you or do some proceedures from a person that was less qualified than other personnel, but could do the job for half the salary?
I would go to a hospital and pay a higher rate to get a doctor I knew was qualified.
Where do you get market value from?
Value is defined by what the Market dictates it to be.
...It is so easy to pay a few guys that always mix with the peaceful crowds, and turn everything into the chaotic violent acts, we see on tv on allmost all those meetings...
I am sure the majority of protestors are peaceful. But please don't play off the violence by some of the WTO/G8/IMF/World Bank protestors as the actions of a few paid moles planted by the corporations to incite riots in the peaceful masses. Many of these groups are well organized, and plan their riots and disruptions ahead of time. These are not the acts of a few individuals.
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That was an extremely long post, I apologize. There was a lot of information I wanted to address. Here is the crux of what I believe:
Globalization is completely, 100% inevitable. I would say it has already happened. I have an extremely difficult time understanding the goals of the protestors at these conferences, since they are in essence protesting against themselves. Globalization means that workers in "3rd world" countries will be paid higher wages. Yes it will mean that higher paying jobs in America and Europe will go away. This is not a bad thing, it is progress. Cheaper labor will mean cheaper product that these new workers will be able to consume, meaning more markets for corporations to sell their Cokes, Dell Computers, and Sony flat screen TV's into...which will fuel the influx of value into these companies and make them more valuable, driving up their stock value and delivering more money into the shareholders, which if you haven't already picked up on it yet, is where you want to be in the end, because you will be in the receiving end of the chain of money, which you will use to restart the cycle by reinvesting in another company, which will use your investment to hire a 3rd world worker who will buy a flat screen TV, etc, etc, etc.
All that being said, I have not forgotten the Worker. Just as I believe in the power of the Market to set price, I believe in the power of the Worker to set wage, either via their skill-set (higher skilled = higher wage) or by collectively bargaining (aka Union) with the Company. The Worker gains the protection of the masses, and the Company has the power to find someone cheaper. But in the end, it will all be decided by...
The Market. |
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06/08/2004 06:57:30 AM · #44 |
I have two questions for everyone outraged by American companies moving work overseas:
1. If tomorrow morning you got a call from someone offering you a job -- the same responsibilities as the job you have now, similar commute, same job security, but at a 25% increase in pay and benefits, would you take it? Assume the ONLY two differences between the jobs are the compensation and the company that issues the paycheck.
2. Are you equally outraged that, for example, Japanese car companies outsource some of their manufacturing to the United States? Is Honda, for example, abdicating some responsibility to Japanese workers to provide them with jobs?
-Terry
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06/08/2004 07:00:25 AM · #45 |
Just a remarque to those complaining about "foreign worker from another country" you are probably forgetting that america is built on that. Unless you are native indians, your anchestors, were all foreign workers from another country.
I find it even more funny that pitsaman started this, but if I look at his profile there is no US flag, but there is a Macedonia flag :)
Message edited by author 2004-06-08 07:05:32. |
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06/08/2004 09:01:10 AM · #46 |
Originally posted by WebHorn:
Corruption is like roaches, you can never kill it. I take the recent news of Enron’s and WorldCom’s as good news - we brought it into the light and are actually punishing those responsible, vs. past days when those people may have gone unpunished.
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There is so much corporate corruption in America today that these examples, while being large in nature, are just the tip of the iceberg. And while some of the criminals are going to jail will their sentences match the crime? Have any of the Enron executives that stole millions of dollars from their employees returned any of that money? Is there any hope that these employees will recoup their life savings? As far as I know, Kenneth Lay (a friend and big contributor to President Bush) is still a free man. He took away illegally something like $342 million. I would also like to see the executives that have been sentenced to jail time to be doing their time in Rikers Island or other penitentaries that usual criminals serve their time in and not the "club fed" facilities that Skilling and others of his ilk will serve in. |
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06/08/2004 10:35:51 AM · #47 |
Originally posted by WebHorn:
Yes, capitalism is built on competition, but the big companies which are getting bigger and bigger, are doing it because they somehow eliminate the competition and form oligopolies and monopolies, which are free then to charge whatever they want.
Somehow? Competition doesn't just vanish - it is defeated by superior price power, marketing, and business practice. Even when a monopoly forms, there is always competition in some form or fashion, waiting to fill the void should the incumbent slip. And monopolies are NOT free to charge whatever they want, there are several protections both in the Gov't and in the market to prevent this, such as the Sherman Act and our own self-denial of their product, or finding and buying from a competitor and accepting their products limitations in price, support, or features to avoid the monopoly.
I do this today with my cable, I buy from a local cable company that offers less channels than Time-Warner so that I don't have to give money to a large company that I have received poor service from. I accept the limitation and pay equal money for an inferior product, and I am OK with that. I find that most of the time when people moan about paying a monopoly for something they are either speaking hypothetically, don't know about the competition's offerings, or are not willing to accept the limitations of the competitions product or service. There is always an option.
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Price fixing, price gouging, collusion to fix markets, or forcing a product on customers and other dubious business practices are what defeat the competetion. Your ideas are wonderful ideologies, but do not seem to be the common practice of many of the big companies. I would be happy to go to the competition for a product, but most often in today's markets there really isn't much choice. Many companies are subsidiaries of other major corporations. An example would be Clear Channel in radio, which now owns a major percentage of the airwave licenses for many different markets in the nation. They have also given lots of money to politicians so that laws get passed for their benefit. Competition is dwindling in this country and fast. |
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06/08/2004 10:50:55 AM · #48 |
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
I have two questions for everyone outraged by American companies moving work overseas:
1. If tomorrow morning you got a call from someone offering you a job -- the same responsibilities as the job you have now, similar commute, same job security, but at a 25% increase in pay and benefits, would you take it? Assume the ONLY two differences between the jobs are the compensation and the company that issues the paycheck.
2. Are you equally outraged that, for example, Japanese car companies outsource some of their manufacturing to the United States? Is Honda, for example, abdicating some responsibility to Japanese workers to provide them with jobs?
-Terry |
1. Things are never so simple and black and white issues. Companies more their operations elsewhere to evade govt regulations and accountibility for their actions as relate to pollution or the requirement to pay benefits to their workers. Accessiblity of natural resources and cheap labor and tax benefits would be others. Individual workers seldom have that much to benefit from moving from one company to another.
2. I am outraged by any company that tries to evade accountibility to the land in which they operate and tries to change legislation for their benefit so that the rights of citizens become secondary. That is what's happening with globalization. |
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06/08/2004 11:17:35 AM · #49 |
Lockheed...General Motors...Ford...Nasa...etc....etc.....etc
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Where do janitors get $30/hr with bennies? The janitors I know get paid much less and work with harsh irritating and sometimes dangerous chemicals. They have hard jobs and many have to moonlight to make ends meet.
Originally posted by David Ey:
sweeping the floor is not worth 30 bucks with benefits in any part of the world |
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06/08/2004 11:20:13 AM · #50 |
WELL SAID Steve!!!
Originally posted by StevePax:
I work very hard for every penny of my salary, and I make the money that I prove to the company that I'm worth. I went to college, I paid my own way there by working hard as well. However, the CEO of my company makes millions. Including stock options, he probably makes 200 times what I make. Buy you know what? He does his job at least 200 times better than I could do it. So, is he a thief, making absurd amounts of money he doesn't deserve? No. He's a man like I am, who works hard for his money. And he earns every penny.
However, if I go to the local grocery store, the unionized checker there makes almost as much as people in my department at work. Clearly, that is high above market value for that job. I worked as a checker for a while in college - it took me one week to learn every single nuance of the job. Do I think checkers are worth $25 or $30 an hour? No way. Do I think they don't deserve to support themselves or their families? No, I absolutely think they deserve to support themselves. They can go to college, too. |
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