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06/05/2004 09:17:59 AM · #26 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Dale- Proof Setup is just a preview and doesn't affect the actual image data (so there's no profile to dump). |
Yes, why do you think I believe otherwise? Ahh, I see, a misinterpretation (or miscommunication):
Originally posted by dwoolridge:
If you save your image after doing edits in that state, make sure you dump your profile too. |
Elaboration: If you edit your image while proofing (in Mac/Win RGB for example) because you expect the way it looks in that state to represent the final output, then the profile I recommend you dump (don't save it with your image) is the one embedded in the image in the first place (and there may not be one). Otherwise, other applications might see the profile and display it, not as you intended, but the way they should. When uploading to DPC, it's not an issue as it dumps your profile anyway.
Originally posted by scalvert:
When you say that Macintosh RGB and Windows RGB just dumps the image data to the targeted profile, that's the whole point. You see an approximation of how your image will look on an average monitor on each platform. |
Yes, but that wasn't my point. My point was that the Mac/Win RGB proofs are for those who intend to send their output directly (without conversion) to a non-profile aware application, such as the web, but it's not suitable for much else. If you're editing a JPEG in sRGB then it's probably fine.
In the rare case I'm editing a JPEG, I'm not using sRGB anyway and I prefer to proof to sRGB (without preserving color numbers). I find it produces better results anyway and is consistent with my CMW.
Originally posted by scalvert:
For more predictable results, either set Photoshop's Color Settings to Web Graphics Defaults or use Convert to Profile and choose sRGB as the destination space. |
Only in rare instances would I recommend using the Web Graphics Defaults, but sRGB conversion is highly recommended in general. Good luck getting your uncle's 15-year PC/CRT producing the intended results. :-) |
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06/05/2004 09:27:55 AM · #27 |
Just trying to make it clear for others. I don't use Web Graphics Defaults either since most of my work is for print. For Photoshop newbies whose only output is to DPC, though, that would be the way to go.
BTW- pretty sure the default white point on Macs these days is D65. Used to be 9300K eons ago. |
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06/05/2004 09:33:03 AM · #28 |
This has been very helpful, since every photo I upload appears lighter and loses depth of tone and color and I have to go back and darken things to get it to match what I did in Photoshop.
So to recap:
1. My color profile in Photoshop should be set to 'sRGB IEC.......' (I was told once to set it on Adobe RGB)
2. When finished with any photo, I should View the Proof Setup for Windows (I'm Mac based), to see what it will look like for Windows folks.
I'll try this, but just wanted to make sure I was correct in my thinking!
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06/05/2004 09:57:07 AM · #29 |
I was afraid this was getting convoluted. Let me summarize...
You were told correctly. Adobe RGB is far superior for editing- it's a wider gamut. Do your editing with Proof Setup set to Windows RGB and then use Convert to Profile with an sRGB destination space when you're finished (sRGB constrains the gamut somewhat for an average monitor and probably isn't critical). When you Save for Web, the image preview will appear lighter by default unless you right-click and choose Use Embedded Profile from the pop-up menu (be sure to check the ICC Profile in your JPEG settings). That's how most viewers will see your image (including Macs with Web Browsers that understand ICC profiles). Hope that helps.
BTW David, you're one of the most admired photographers here, and Desert Moonlight has been in my Favorites since the day I joined. I REALLY appreciate the great comment you left on my Threes entry yesterday- THANKS! |
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06/05/2004 11:00:10 AM · #30 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
You were told correctly. Adobe RGB is far superior for editing- it's a wider gamut. |
Adobe RGB is not a panacea for editing and it is generally recommended that you avoid the wide gamut spaces when editing low-bit input (like 8-bit/channel JPEGs). See these articles (by Bruce Fraser) for more information:
Exploring Wide, Open (Color) Spaces
The High-bit Advantage
Finessing Photoshop Color
Originally posted by scalvert:
Do your editing with Proof Setup set to Windows RGB and then use Convert to Profile with an sRGB destination space when you're finished (sRGB constrains the gamut somewhat for an average monitor and probably isn't critical). |
Only use Windows RGB as a proof entry if you aren't going to save your image with a profile and don't intend to convert to the target space (where your editing/working space differs from the target space).
Imagine you've got a new entry in your Proof Setup list, called "PC web". The target space is sRGB, preserve color numbers is not checked, intent is relative colorimetric (or perceptual), and black point compensation is on.
Now, this proof entry matches the way you intend to convert your image later (to sRGB) and your edits will be perceptually closer to your intent than if you used Windows RGB for your proof entry. |
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06/05/2004 02:26:59 PM · #31 |
To each his own. Why dumb-down the image to sRGB before editing? Some newer model cameras can shoot directly in Adobe RGB, so you'd just be working on the file in its original, wider gamut with minimal conversions. For images shot in sRGB (the default on most cameras), there's obviously no benefit to switching to a wider gamut.
Very few browsers recognize ICC profiles (and those few are Mac-based). The Windows RGB option in Proof Setup displays a preview of your image as it would appear on an average PC monitor (without any compensation applied). This should be how the image will appear to most DPC viewers. Since the sRGB profiles is also designed to simulate an average monitor's color space, there should little difference (if any) between the two. From Photoshop's own documentation:
Keeping colors consistent in images for the Web is a challenge. You have control over how your images display on your monitor, but you have no control over how they will display on other monitors. Additionally, most browsers do not recognize a document's embedded profile. They simply send the raw RGB values to your monitor. Without a profile, a computer's color management system must guess what colors a document's RGB values actually represent. Although it may seem impossible to produce consistent colors in an image for the Web, there are a few things you can do to keep the colors as consistent as possible.
To keep colors as consistent as possible in Web images:
Set up your monitor for a color-managed workflow
Calibrate and profile your monitor. Use a visual calibrator like Adobe Gamma (Windows), Monitor Calibrator (Mac OS) or, for more precision, use third-party software and hardware.
Set up color management in Photoshop
Choose Edit > Color Settings (Windows) or Photoshop > Color Settings (Mac OS) and specify the color management settings. You can either choose Web Graphics Defaults from the Settings menu in the Color Settings dialog box or customize the settings. If you prefer not to use the preset option, it's recommended that you at least use sRGB for your working space. sRGB is a smaller color space than Adobe RGB (1998) and supposedly represents the profile of the average monitor. Tagging your image with an sRGB profile increases the possibility that more monitors will correctly display the colors in your image.
(Optional) Convert the document to sRGB profile
If you have an image that's tagged with a profile other than sRGB, you can convert profile to sRGB so that the colors have a chance of maintaining a consistent appearance on a wide variety of monitors. Choose Image > Mode > Convert to Profile and choose sRGB for Profile under Destination Space.
Save for Web
Choose File > Save for Web. The Save for Web command gives you more control over the optimization of your image. You can specify the colors that are preserved when saving an image in GIF or PNG-8 format. In JPEG format, you have the option of embedding an ICC profile in the file. Currently, only Internet Explorer (Mac OS) and OmniWeb (Mac OS) can read embedded profiles in images if the user enables the ColorSync option in the preferences. If an image has no embedded profile, Internet Explorer (Mac OS) and OmniWeb (Mac OS) assume an sRGB profile for the image.
Message edited by author 2004-06-05 14:27:43. |
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06/05/2004 06:11:34 PM · #32 |
I think most people want to print these pics at sometime, so why set up PS to look good on the web? This seems to be a big waste of time. I would stick to the Adobe color space, BECAUSE of the wider gamut.
I use a G5 Mac, calibrated 20" monitor with iOne, and the way I described before, always comes out looking almost exactly the same when I check the pic on a Windows machine. That is with the Monitors Proof. To me it seems to be the inbetween of the Mac and Windows on MY computer (mine is third party hardware calibrated).
You can't go and fix everyones monitors, and that is the main problem, but if the person viewing it gives a crap they will have already done it.
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06/05/2004 08:08:34 PM · #33 |
Cool, thanks for the info scalvert and the rest, this info is good to know. I've finally been able to make my entries look the same on the website as the do on my PC but I want them to look good on as many PCs as possible obviously.
I use Adobe RGB 1998 for my PS profile. So generally, if the image looks the same to me in PS as it does when I upload it to the website, will it look that way to most other users if: 1) They also use Internet Explorer browser, and 2) Have the same general monitor settings and Display settings as I do?
Or would I still need to go through the steps that scalvert posted in order to achieve this?
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06/05/2004 08:16:27 PM · #34 |
| In short, yes. Given the wide variations between monitors and the fact that most web browsers ignore the profile anyway, getting an exact match for everyone is an exercise in futility. The people who will really benefit from this thread are the Mac users who couldn't understand why their image looks so different after uploading to DPC. |
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06/05/2004 08:51:09 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
....In short, yes. Given the wide variations between monitors and the fact that most web browsers ignore the profile anyway, getting an exact match for everyone is an exercise in futility. |
I use Microsoft IE 6.x browser. So given that the image on the website looks exactly the same as it does in PS, does this mean that IE does not ignore the profile?
BTW, I switched my color profile back to sRGB IE... in Color Settings. I think this is the better one to use after reading more since I mostly post my images on the web rather then printing them.
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06/05/2004 09:11:45 PM · #36 |
| I don't think IE6 reads profiles. Essentially sRGB simulates what you're already seeing- a PC monitor with no color conversions applied. Since your Fuji is likely capturing images in sRGB anyway, working in that color space in Photoshop is probably fine unless you also work with images from another source (like a drum scanner). |
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06/06/2004 02:45:13 AM · #37 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
To each his own. Why dumb-down the image to sRGB before editing? Some newer model cameras can shoot directly in Adobe RGB, so you'd just be working on the file in its original, wider gamut with minimal conversions. For images shot in sRGB (the default on most cameras), there's obviously no benefit to switching to a wider gamut. |
I don't think I recommended dumbing down an image to sRGB, but your advice to dsidwell was to use Adobe RGB even though his camera produces sRGB images. If you are going to (heavily) edit 8-bit images (either in sRGB or Adobe RGB) I think it's preferable to convert to BruceRGB and use that as your 8-bit working space. However, this is a contentious issue. When working with 8-bit input, there are a few policies from which to choose:
1. Honour the embedded profile and edit it that way (and in 8-bit)
2. Honour the embedded profile if it's wide enough (Adobe RGB or some others, but not sRGB), but switch to 16-bit mode for all editing. Perform appropriate mode/profile changes later.
3. Do not honour the embedded profile except as source input in converting to alternate 8-bit working space (like BruceRGB).
4. Ignore the embedded profile completely and assign a device-specific profile, then convert to working space of your choice (similar choices as above).
scalvert seems to advocate 1, whereis I advocate 3. There are still others that advocate 2. 4 is really only an extra step added before making a choice between 1-3.
Originally posted by scalvert:
Very few browsers recognize ICC profiles (and those few are Mac-based). |
Yes, my point was about future-proofing. See the following documents for more info:
CSS3 module: Color
Color Profiles for CSS3
A Standard Default Color Space for the Internet - sRGB
Originally posted by scalvert:
The Windows RGB option in Proof Setup displays a preview of your image as it would appear on an average PC monitor (without any compensation applied). This should be how the image will appear to most DPC viewers. Since the sRGB profiles is also designed to simulate an average monitor's color space, there should little difference (if any) between the two. |
Indeed, but you recommended using Windows RGB for proofing (editing for perceptual corrections), then converting to sRGB later on. Adding the conversion in this workflow eliminates the benefit of proofing (unless your editing space is sRGB in which case it's a no-op, as is the proofing step).
Imagine I have my 8-bit file (a JPEG) with an embedded profile, Adobe RGB. Here's my interpretation of your suggested (partial) workflow:
1. Open file and edit until you get the desired result.
2. Proof with Windows RGB
3. Make additional edits until results of (1) are achieved again.
4. Convert to sRGB
5. publish to web
Step 4 eliminates all your hard work as it then transforms your Adobe RGB data (which you modified as if it was sRGB) into sRGB. Result: your image doesn't look like what you intended at all. Go ahead, try it.
If you're going to use Windows RGB, you have to ignore step 4 and make sure you don't embed your profile when saving. Alternatively, create a new proofing entry (as I've already suggested) to use instead of Windows RGB and keep step 4. |
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