US Marshal attacks woman and smashes camera

04/29/2015 06:40:09 AM · #76

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by RayEthier:
... but why not wait till all the facts are out and substantiated before we start condemning all police officers.

Some of the reactions towards the police are no better than what it is we are against.

Perhaps the past history of police cover-ups/lack of accountability influence people's opinion of any "investigation" ... just consider it "profiling" ...

Indeed, and if "Profiling" is frowned upon when undertaken by those in authority, it should also be an issue of consideration in instances such as these.

Ray

04/29/2015 06:44:56 AM · #77

Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by RayEthier:
...but why not wait till all the facts are out and substantiated before we start condemning all police officers...

Based on the behavior of those bad officers and the fact that they wear exactly the same uniform as the good officers, waiting could be a lethal mistake.

I see, so you are OK with condemning ALL within a specific group regardless of the fact that we have no concrete proof as to what exactly happened.

Are you suggesting that the bahaviour is something that is something that can be transmitted like the common cold?

I have no problems whatsoever with ferreting out who committed these heinous acts and holding them accountable, but I shudder at this rush to judgement and the painting of all police officers with the same brush.

Let's get all the facts and work from there.

Ray

Message edited by author 2015-04-29 06:45:31.

04/29/2015 09:02:46 AM · #78

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Are you suggesting that the bahaviour is something that is something that can be transmitted like the common cold?

I have no problems whatsoever with ferreting out who committed these heinous acts and holding them accountable, but I shudder at this rush to judgement and the painting of all police officers with the same brush.

Ray

You know, that's a great way to put it. Bad behavior IS like the common cold. Especially when you throw the whole "no snitching" thing in the mix.

I understand you don't like it when we paint with a broad brush, but let me remind you that from my perspective most cops are guilty to at least some degree. If they've taken ANY action to cover up for the actions of another officer, then IMO they're complicit at best, and guilty of conspiracy most likely. I also know you claim you've never done such a thing, and never saw such a thing done - no offense, but I really have an extremely hard time buying into that Ray - especially seeing how ready you are to defend them still to this day, even in a different country.

Even a good cop is a part of the problem if they're not actively trying to stop the criminals they work with.

The ONLY officer who had the fortitude to stand up and cry foul in ABQ recently was a cadet, who was still fresh enough to know right from wrong.

I know you don't like it, but I hope you can see why I think the best tool for this job is an extremely wide brush.

04/29/2015 09:08:15 AM · #79

Also, 'little' incidents like this do nothing for my opinion of the police in general.

04/29/2015 09:38:07 AM · #80

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by RayEthier:
...but why not wait till all the facts are out and substantiated before we start condemning all police officers...

Based on the behavior of those bad officers and the fact that they wear exactly the same uniform as the good officers, waiting could be a lethal mistake.

I see, so you are OK with condemning ALL within a specific group regardless of the fact that we have no concrete proof as to what exactly happened.

Are you suggesting that the bahaviour is something that is something that can be transmitted like the common cold?

I have no problems whatsoever with ferreting out who committed these heinous acts and holding them accountable, but I shudder at this rush to judgement and the painting of all police officers with the same brush.

Let's get all the facts and work from there.

Ray

That sounds great, but as a regular person on the street, I don't have access to all the facts and, really, no one does. The assumption that all cops are good is wrong, so is the assumption that all cops are bad. From a standpoint of minimizing my personal risk, the potential consequence of assuming that a cop is good when in fact they are bad is extremely severe. The potential consequence of the reverse scenario,(assuming the good cop is bad) is far less severe. In the interest of self preservation, my default assumption has to be that any cop IS indeed bad until proven otherwise. There may be situations where I may decide that the risk associated with trusting the cops are acceptable, but I will proceed with caution nonetheless.

And, yes, I do believe that the poor behavior and attitude are, at least partially "learned" by officers and thus could be seen as contagious. The saying, "one bad apple spoils the bunch" is true.

Message edited by author 2015-04-29 12:15:02.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

04/29/2015 12:55:11 PM · #81

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Let's get all the facts and work from there.

Ray

It's hard to "get all the facts" when Maryland law apparently says that the DA can't even interrogate the officers for ten days -- that should be plenty of time for them (and their lawyers) to get their story straight ...

04/29/2015 01:08:11 PM · #82

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by RayEthier:
Let's get all the facts and work from there.

Ray

It's hard to "get all the facts" when Maryland law apparently says that the DA can't even interrogate the officers for ten days -- that should be plenty of time for them (and their lawyers) to get their story straight ...

And that's the overriding theme here - we believe (nearly universally) that the police are highly deceptive and very willing to use underhanded tactics.

04/29/2015 01:29:59 PM · #83

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by RayEthier:
Let's get all the facts and work from there.

Ray

It's hard to "get all the facts" when Maryland law apparently says that the DA can't even interrogate the officers for ten days -- that should be plenty of time for them (and their lawyers) to get their story straight ...

And that's the overriding theme here - we believe (nearly universally) that the police are highly deceptive and very willing to use underhanded tactics.

How is anyone supposed to believe the "facts" as presented by the police, who are investigating themselves? The police are well known for closing ranks to protect their own from meddlesome "civilian" authorities. That's letting the fox guard the henhouse.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

04/29/2015 01:38:20 PM · #84

A think the US DOJ is also conducting an investigation.

04/29/2015 01:39:13 PM · #85

Cory thank you ever so much for casting aspersions on my character and making the inference that by defending the police environment I am somehow complicit in the actions being alluded to and/or a part of some major conspiracy.

Considering that you and others can't seem to grasp the fact that I prefer to have concrete proof before throwing people under the bus, then I am done with this discussion and you can attack who you want at your leisure.

Have a great day.

Ray

04/29/2015 01:41:13 PM · #86

Originally posted by Spork99:

[quote=Cory] [quote=GeneralE] [quote=RayEthier]Let's get all the facts and work from there.
How is anyone supposed to believe the "facts" as presented by the police, who are investigating themselves? The police are well known for closing ranks to protect their own from meddlesome "civilian" authorities. That's letting the fox guard the henhouse.

You are familiar with the fact that there are bodies other than the police involved in these investigations right.

Why bother, I am obviously dealing with people who have no interest in seeing the process go it's natural course.

The police are guilty... end of story.

Ray

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

04/29/2015 01:51:00 PM · #87

Ray, we all want "the facts." It is the police who have failed to be forthcoming with the necessary information to make an informed judgment.

However, note that prior to being taken into custody, Mr. Gray was apparently healthy (at least healthy enough to run). A few days after being shackled and taken into custody, he died of a severed spinal cord.

Now, it is possible that Mr. Gray intentionally broke his own back. However, on the list of possible causes I think most reasonable people would rank this as a considerably less likely possibility than several of the many alternative explanations.

04/29/2015 01:57:16 PM · #88

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Considering the general concensus that seems to exist with the posters in DPC regarding the police, I would counter that you are getting your just dues. Why would anyone in their right mind even consider joining a police environment if indeed they are to be held in such contempt from the get go.

Enjoy yourselves with your delusions and appreciate the fact that you may very reap garner what you sow... distrust and contempt.

By the way Cory thank you ever so much for casting aspersions on my character and making the inference that by defending the police environment I am somehow complicit in the actions being alluded to and/or a part of some major conspiracy.

Considering that you and others can't seem to grasp the fact that I prefer to have concrete proof before throwing people under the bus, then I am done with this discussion and you can attack who you want at your leisure.

Have a great day.

Ray

Sorry if I hurt your feelings Ray - but I do find it hard to believe - I know you to be a good guy, but really cannot believe that you never covered for anyone, at any point in your career. If true, I think it to be rare, and most impressive.

I would counter with the argument that the police are in fact now reaping what they've sown for decades, and I feel it's well deserved. Perhaps that's only because I've been the subject of their petty insults, disrespect, and abusive behaviors more than once. I've never been one to accept being treated that way, but have zero effective recourse when it's the police doling out the abuse. The feeling of helplessness in the face of an enemy who you can not fight is upsetting, so I do admittedly revel in the current state of affairs.

Message edited by author 2015-04-29 14:02:21.

04/29/2015 02:16:20 PM · #89

Please refer to comment posted on 04/29/2015 01:39:13 PM Â· #85

Ray

04/29/2015 02:16:20 PM · #90

Originally posted by GeneralE:

A think the US DOJ is also conducting an investigation.

Which is better than the police investigating their own department, but this is not the normal course of action. All too often the police department will investigate themselves, hold a press conference affirming that "proper procedures were followed" and sweep the whole incident under the rug. Investigations external to the police department in question aren't started until these incidents come under scrutiny from the media and others, more frequently because of citizens recording police actions as in the original post.

04/29/2015 02:21:44 PM · #91

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Please refer to comment posted on 04/29/2015 01:39:13 PM Â· #85

Ray

Please refer to reality.... You can pretend there's not a problem, and that we're all just making stuff up to suit our own agendas, but really, I think it's obvious that's not the case. Again, sorry if I've hurt your feelings, that's not my intent.

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

04/29/2015 02:22:47 PM · #92

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Enjoy yourselves with your delusions and appreciate the fact that you may very reap garner what you sow... distrust and contempt.

This goes both ways, Ray. The police in a community, all too often behave in the manner of an occupying army, regarding the "civilians" with distrust and contempt.

BrennanOB

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

04/29/2015 02:45:51 PM · #93

Originally posted by Cory:

I know you to be a good guy, but really cannot believe that you never covered for anyone, at any point in your career.

Over the line here Cory. I now plenty of cops who are Dudley Do-Right level clean. Big inner city high crime departments you may have a point, but the vast majority of towns' police are small town neighbors, not "death from above". And as you say, you know Ray; about as honest a fellow as I have met on the net.

04/29/2015 03:19:37 PM · #94

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Originally posted by Cory:
I know you to be a good guy, but really cannot believe that you never covered for anyone, at any point in your career.

Over the line here Cory. I now plenty of cops who are Dudley Do-Right level clean. Big inner city high crime departments you may have a point, but the vast majority of towns' police are small town neighbors, not "death from above". And as you say, you know Ray; about as honest a fellow as I have met on the net.

Certainly seems to be that way to me in my dealings with him, he's always struck me as a good guy. And you did cut off the second part of that statement that said "if true.... Most impressive" which was meant to open the door to the possibility that he really is genuinely guilt free at all levels. However, it's also important that you recognize that this would be very much in direct conflict with everything I have experienced with the police in my life. And I'm sure many of the cops who do cover the asses of the few are actually good folks, or at least mean to be.

If anything Ray, please be angry at the cops who've caused me to feel this way towards all police. As was mentioned earlier, the cost of me assuming all cops are bad is fairly low - the price of me assuming all cops are good could be extremely high. On that basis alone my assumptions always lean towards bad. Again, I know there are lots of great cops out there - but I also know that many of the good ones have covered up for the bad ones, and I also know that I cannot immediately discern good cops from bad cops, so the only reasonable course of action is to treat all police with suspicion and distrust.

Also, how do you KNOW they were Dudley Do-Right level clean? Unless you served with them every day, and never let them out of your sight, there's basically no way you can make this claim with certainty.

Really in the end, let's just view this through the approach criminal justice usually takes: If a fellow volunteers 4 days a week, feeds the homeless from his own pocket, donates to the police department, and is a community leader of great standing, not a damned bit of that matters once he shoots his wife in the face during a heated argument.

The same should hold true on a more macro level when talking about the police - I don't care about the good ones, nor how much awesome kind amazing stuff they've done. All I care about is the bad ones and the evil they do. Unfair? Only if you accept that treating them as a group is unfair, but that is how the police treat gangs, and arguably there's not a hell of a lot of organizational differentiation between the police and street gangs. In the end I'm doing nothing more than applying the same approach to them that they've been championing for decades and have implemented without remorse until we have filled our prisons beyond capacity with people who may well have only made a single mistake and been caught. I would invite you, or anyone else, to tell me why you find this approach inappropriate, as to me it seems as though I'm just playing by the rules they themselves have created.

Message edited by author 2015-04-29 15:32:39.

Mike

Tamron SP 24-70mm f/2.8 Di VC USD Canon Mount

04/29/2015 04:19:01 PM · #95

certainly a lot of generalizing going on in this thread.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

04/29/2015 05:34:04 PM · #96

Originally posted by Mike:

certainly a lot of generalizing going on in this thread.

Hey, my posts are pretty short and to the point, and not all that frequent. ;-)

04/29/2015 05:39:32 PM · #97

Originally posted by Mike:

certainly a lot of generalizing going on in this thread.

So? In the instance when you encounter police officers, it's not like one is wearing a "good cop" shirt and the other a "imma break your spine" shirt. Generalization is a survival tool in the absence of further information. Goes back to the caveman days.

Message edited by author 2015-04-29 17:40:37.

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 50mm f/1.8G

04/29/2015 05:45:30 PM · #98

Originally posted by Spork99:

[...] "good cop" shirt and the other a "imma break your spine" shirt. [...]

Great idea - frankly this would work much better than body cameras and save a ton of money. ;-)

nygold

Nikon D5000

05/01/2015 02:30:45 PM · #99

This just in.
Baltimore's State's Attorney Marilyn Mosby announced Friday morning that Freddie Gray's death has been ruled a homicide, and that six officers will face criminal charges

Doesn't look good for these 6 cops

Mike