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01/16/2015 01:46:25 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by Tom Burnham's The Dictionary of Misinformation (1975):
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." These are not Voltaire's words, though the sentiment is Voltairean enough. Whether or not Voltaire ever said—or, more accurately, wrote—a similar sentence is a somewhat sticky question. When E. Beatrice Hall, writing under the name S.G. Tallentyre, first put these words on paper, she did not claim they were Voltaire's; she offered them of a free paraphrase on a sentence from Voltaire's Essay on Tolerance: "Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too."
The question is further complicated, however, by the fact that Norbert Guterman claims that Voltaire wrote in a letter to one M. le Riche "... I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write.." The letter, says Guterman, was written February 6, 1770.
As things stand now, one can only say as usually printed, the statement varies from Voltaire's written words while preserving, of course, their sense. |
Something he apparently did say ... 
Message edited by author 2015-01-16 13:48:58. |
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01/16/2015 01:56:55 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Tom Burnham's The Dictionary of Misinformation (1975):
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." These are not Voltaire's words, though the sentiment is Voltairean enough. Whether or not Voltaire ever said—or, more accurately, wrote—a similar sentence is a somewhat sticky question. When E. Beatrice Hall, writing under the name S.G. Tallentyre, first put these words on paper, she did not claim they were Voltaire's; she offered them of a free paraphrase on a sentence from Voltaire's Essay on Tolerance: "Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too."
The question is further complicated, however, by the fact that Norbert Guterman claims that Voltaire wrote in a letter to one M. le Riche "... I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write.." The letter, says Guterman, was written February 6, 1770.
As things stand now, one can only say as usually printed, the statement varies from Voltaire's written words while preserving, of course, their sense. |
Something he apparently did say ... |
Which is a very cleverly boiled down version of that diatribe I just went on. :-D |
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01/16/2015 01:58:28 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Which is a very cleverly boiled down version of that diatribe I just went on. :-D |
I guess that's why he's raking in the big bucks! ;-) |
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01/16/2015 02:00:23 PM · #54 |
| I'll happily back down on the Voltaire thing. I didn't even mean a kerfuffle, I was just adding info to GeneralE's refutation, then I got mildly peeved at Doc (not peeved enough to bop him in the nose, though) because he was being snarky with me. As Ubique points out quite correctly, it's certainly very true to Voltaire's expressed viewpoint, even if he never said those exact words, which anyway he wouldn't have, because he didn't write in English :-) |
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01/16/2015 02:03:21 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
No, I just reject that all Cory. I won't argue because it's impossible to do so with the ultracynic. No matter what I say you will either say I am saying it out of a self-interested position (and thus view whatever as invalid) or you will say I am too blind to see the self-interested motivation of others. It is a steel cage that is impossible to penetrate, but, ironically, also impossible to escape.
I'm quite sure the Pope is Christian. It would be odd if he wasn't. I'm also quite sure this Pope has a life's worth of action that speaks to his concern for the poor and downtrodden as well as one of peace and reconciliation. Squinting my eyes until I see a call for violence is, really, inane. |
I bet Soheil Arabi wishes he could just reject all that. |
I bet so too, but what does that have to do with the Pope? Nothing. |
Well, as much as I hate to repeat myself:
The problem is simple, if you accept belief as a justification for ANYTHING, you must accept it as a justification for EVERYTHING, therefore I reject the justification summarily. Have your faith, and eat it too if you wish, but if you feel you are compelled to act based on faith/belief/commandments from god himself/etc, then you have a serious epistemological issue.
--
Broken down a bit more, that means that since the Pope is one of the purveyors of this whole religion thingy, and this religion thingy tends to be kinda unpredictable in so far as what God might require one to do, or not do. Add to this the general acceptance of psychotic episodes as 'divine guidance' (hearing voices is a bad thing guys, not god, not good, not good at all.) so basically what I'm saying is that the Pope is another leg of the table upon which stands this thing called "religion" or "faith". And upon that table innumerable atrocities have been committed. It is this man's opinion that we need to just replace the entire table, actually, replace is a bit of the wrong idea, what I really mean is that we need to choose another table, one that doesn't occasionally catch afire randomly, one that has a set of rules which can be debated via some sort of mechanism that would allow examination of claims, and perhaps give some possibility of real progress and genuine agreement. This whole idea of believing things with conviction based on nothing more than a very old book of questionable provenance, or even worse, personal 'experience', has, frankly, had it's run. It was a good run, but it's time for something more practical. I guess in that respect, the 'table' of faith is a bit like the wire-spool and cinderblock furniture I had when I was in college, it worked fine at the time, but it eventually proved impractical for my needs. |
Here's some ammo for you Cory. It appears God is recruiting for the US Army... //www.dailykos.com/story/2015/01/15/1358006/-STOP-READ-LOOK-AT-SHOCKING-PHOTO-U-S-Army-Official-Recruitment-for-Mission-for-God?detail=email |
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01/16/2015 02:08:58 PM · #56 |
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01/16/2015 02:09:58 PM · #57 |
THAT is absolutely blood-curdling! I can't believe they actually did that... |
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01/16/2015 02:19:23 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
THAT is absolutely blood-curdling! I can't believe they actually did that... |
Am I the only one seeing that is PS'd? or am I just not getting a joke? |
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01/16/2015 02:30:52 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by smardaz:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
THAT is absolutely blood-curdling! I can't believe they actually did that... |
Am I the only one seeing that is PS'd? or am I just not getting a joke? |
It's not a joke, and the photo's are real. |
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01/16/2015 02:32:32 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by smardaz:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
THAT is absolutely blood-curdling! I can't believe they actually did that... |
Am I the only one seeing that is PS'd? or am I just not getting a joke? |
It's not a joke, and the photo's are real. |
eta: A comment from the site... The "due diligence" was sending a photographer ... (38+ / 0-)
... to verify that the poster was still there and get our own photos taken of it so that those photos would be current (as opposed to photos off the internet from October and November). Ironically, the photographer hired by MRFF did such a good job that the photos (he took about six of them) look too good. Maybe we should have just had someone take some crappy shots with their cell phone camera to avoid these ridiculous accusations of photoshopping ... LOL
by ChrisRodda on Thu Jan 15, 2015 at 06:22:30 PM PST |
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01/16/2015 02:41:43 PM · #61 |
Holy cow you guys love to take something literally when it serves your purposes. You have never heard the phrase "for God and country" before? The original literally says "for altars and hearths" and the meaning is "for the things important to us" and it goes back long before the United States was even around.
And now we are getting quite far from Pope Francis who is neither a Marine nor an American...
And I can't believe Bear could ever get peeved at me!
Message edited by author 2015-01-16 14:44:17. |
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01/16/2015 02:49:33 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
And I can't believe Bear could ever get peeved at me! |
Not enough to bop you on the nose... |
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01/16/2015 02:55:30 PM · #63 |
| aw go ahead, you can say you were just swatting that fly |
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01/16/2015 03:08:59 PM · #64 |
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01/16/2015 03:21:50 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by tnun:
nothing to sneeze at? |
This is where we need a "like" button. :) |
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01/16/2015 03:28:58 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
It's not a joke, and the photo's are real. |
I dont know how anyone can not see that sandwich board was 'shopped in there, you can see artifacts all around it. |
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01/16/2015 04:14:28 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by smardaz:
Originally posted by Kelli:
It's not a joke, and the photo's are real. |
I dont know how anyone can not see that sandwich board was 'shopped in there, you can see artifacts all around it. |
I think that might be some poor sharpening on a high contrast edge. |
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01/16/2015 04:25:39 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by smardaz:
Originally posted by Kelli:
It's not a joke, and the photo's are real. |
I dont know how anyone can not see that sandwich board was 'shopped in there, you can see artifacts all around it. |
I think that might be some poor sharpening on a high contrast edge. |
I'm sure you know betr than me on the technicals but thats not all thats fishy about that photo
Message edited by author 2015-01-16 16:25:49. |
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01/16/2015 05:13:15 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by smardaz:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
THAT is absolutely blood-curdling! I can't believe they actually did that... |
Am I the only one seeing that is PS'd? or am I just not getting a joke? |
From the Army Times today.
The the cited catalog. |
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01/16/2015 05:18:19 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by sfalice:
Originally posted by smardaz:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
THAT is absolutely blood-curdling! I can't believe they actually did that... |
Am I the only one seeing that is PS'd? or am I just not getting a joke? |
From the Army Times today.
The the cited catalog. |
TY Alice. Quite appreciated. |
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01/16/2015 06:00:09 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by Cory:
numbered killings estimated total killings
God 2,476,633 25 million
Satan 10 60 |
Sort of a pointless statistic if you think about it since both wind up with all the dead people anyway. Supposedly. Fun trivia: Hell doesn't actually exist according to the Bible. There is no reference to any sort of punishment after death in the Old Testament (death itself is the ultimate punishment), and every mention of Hell in the New Testament boils down to creative translations of a handful of words that originally referred to either a specific terrestrial location, a grave, or death.
As for the Pope, what do you expect? He could be a very nice guy full of noble intentions, but endorsing religious criticism (or even critical thinking) would quickly put him out of a job. |
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01/16/2015 06:01:59 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Fun trivia: Hell doesn't actually exist according to the Bible. There is no reference to any sort of punishment after death in the Old Testament (death itself is the ultimate punishment), and every mention of Hell in the New Testament boils down to creative translations of a handful of words that originally referred to either a specific terrestrial location, a grave, or death.
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we've been talking about this door to door for decades.... |
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01/16/2015 06:36:58 PM · #73 |
thank you detective Alice. but of course now we have to worry about the fallout:
""The Military Religious Freedom Foundation is delighted that the Constitution has been adhered to by the U.S. Army Recruiting Command," Weinstein said after the poster was removed. "But whoever, in any way, shape or form, allowed that poster to be designed, prepared and displayed, those individuals should be aggressively investigated and very visibly punished.""
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01/16/2015 07:10:57 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by tnun:
thank you detective Alice. but of course now we have to worry about the fallout:
""The Military Religious Freedom Foundation is delighted that the Constitution has been adhered to by the U.S. Army Recruiting Command," Weinstein said after the poster was removed. "But whoever, in any way, shape or form, allowed that poster to be designed, prepared and displayed, those individuals should be aggressively investigated and very visibly punished."" |
You know, I saw that line, and wondered about the definition of "very visibly punished."
Stoned, drawn and quartered, or just ... paintball. (oh, never mind - the mind boggles) |
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01/17/2015 01:29:28 AM · #75 |
Originally posted by sfalice:
Originally posted by original article:
"... those individuals should be aggressively investigated and very visibly punished." |
You know, I saw that line, and wondered about the definition of "very visibly punished."
Stoned, drawn and quartered, or just ... paintball. (oh, never mind - the mind boggles) |
I'd settle for having the person who ordered the poster reprimanded, formally, on the record. That really was disgraceful, and showed an abysmally poor understanding of the principles that person is supposed to defend.
We have enough devout, but misguided, people trying to make this a "Christian nation" without people in the Army getting into the act.
On the other hand, maybe it just takes a little education on the part of the person's commander. Not every slip is cause for severe punishment. (side note: if any of you had known me 20 years ago, you'd be astounded I just said that.)
Message edited by author 2015-01-17 01:32:12. |
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