Freedom of expression - DPChallenge Forums

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

01/11/2015 07:22:10 PM · #26

I think we are going off on quite a tangent now though.

Message edited by author 2015-01-11 19:22:25.

gyaban

Canon EOS-1D X

01/11/2015 07:27:23 PM · #27

Originally posted by rooum:

I totally agree but the situations I'm talking about are when they are taken out of the context of a humorous French satirical magazine and placed elsewhere [...]

Ah, yes, I see your point, thanks for the explanation.

tanguera

Nikon D750

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 17-35mm f/2.8D IF-ED

01/11/2015 08:11:19 PM · #28

Thank you, Paul: " freedom is a socially constructed phenomenon that has its own rule set built by its community"

I do see the IRONY in having a freedom of expression challenge dictated by "rules". However, in the context of where it will take place, it is not "ridiculous".

posthumous

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

01/11/2015 08:48:34 PM · #29

Whenever speech is censored, it is called something heinous. Ulysses was called pornography.

I don't think it's ridiculous for DPC to have this challenge. I think it's hilarious, and I'm all for it.

I have full confidence in the voters' ability to be offended. I just hope the photographers step up to the challenge.

Spork99

OM System OM-1

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

01/11/2015 09:16:03 PM · #30

FYI, in the USA, we have Larry Flynt (of Hustler magazine) to thank for satire being protected under the First Amendment. Hustler Magazine v Falwell

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

01/11/2015 10:19:48 PM · #31

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by ubique:
Freedom of expression is absolute, otherwise it's not freedom. As we will see when the SC get to grips with this excellent challenge suggestion.

That's kind of insulting to SC, friend. Wildly insulting, in fact. But the good news is, we won't censor your statement :-)

I wasn't intending to be insulting, I was predicting that, ironically, SC would not be able to lift the fig leaf for the challenge, as had been suggested.

'We won't censor your statement' sounds like something those faux-Charlie politicians like Obama and Cameron would say. And they'd add a smile, too.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

01/11/2015 11:38:19 PM · #32

Originally posted by ubique:

I wasn't intending to be insulting, I was predicting that, ironically, SC would not be able to lift the fig leaf for the challenge, as had been suggested.

You say it in such a way as to imply that we should be lifting that restriction and that by not doing so we are somehow deficient in the quality of our libertarian-ness ...

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

01/12/2015 12:11:29 AM · #33

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by ubique:
I wasn't intending to be insulting, I was predicting that, ironically, SC would not be able to lift the fig leaf for the challenge, as had been suggested.

You say it in such a way as to imply that we should be lifting that restriction and that by not doing so we are somehow deficient in the quality of our libertarian-ness ...

Yes and No.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

01/12/2015 12:15:49 AM · #34

Originally posted by ubique:

'We won't censor your statement' sounds like something those faux-Charlie politicians like Obama and Cameron would say. And they'd add a smile, too.

Well, I added that line because it's YOU, see? And I knew you'd get the irony there.

gyaban

Canon EOS-1D X

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

01/12/2015 12:33:36 AM · #35

The challenge is there, thanks.
However, could we please change the rules to expert, pretty please? It would allow for text and composites, which seems more in line with the topic.

Neat

Canon Canon 1d x Mark II

Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM

01/12/2015 12:39:40 AM · #36

??

Message edited by author 2015-01-13 08:26:33.

MadMan2k

Sony Alpha a6400

Tamron 70-180mm F/2.8 Di III VXD

01/12/2015 12:42:10 AM · #37

Not a superstitious man, but the day before that happened I was chatting with my co-worker about terrorism and I said something to the effect that we (the US) get all the terrorist attention because of the things we do internationally, and that countries like France for example don't seem to have as much of that drama going on.

If I was superstitious I'd have to start keeping my mouth shut for fear of jinxing people.

Voigtlander Ultron 35mm f/1.7 Aspherical MF Wide Angle - Black

01/12/2015 01:14:20 AM · #38

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Are you such an absolutist as to condone the "right" of people to yell "fire" in a crowded theater or to post "We should kill all the s" or other "expression" which has the intent of harming others?

Besides, freedon of expression is a right not to be limited by governments -- and that freedom includes the freedom of voluntary private associations to set whatever limits they want.

I don't think you were replying to me, but yes. You should have the right to yell fire in a crowded theatre, if you believe there's a fire. And that right inevitably extends to extremist hate speech, which is odious, but not so odious as the suppression of it. See Orwell, et al.

None of which absolves you from responsibility for the consequences of what you say.

As for the second part of your quote, freedom of expression is limited by governments, including those of all of the pious 'solidarity suits' in attendance at Paris yesterday. I agree that voluntary private associations should be free to set whatever limits they want. But they aren't. As one example, such associations are not permitted, by law, to be discriminatory. Thus their freedom is limited by governments.

I am offended by discrimatory behaviour because it's unfair and ignorant. But the right to freedom does not mean you have the right to not be offended. You can have one or the other, but not both.

ETA: The yelling fire in a crowded theatre is a Reductio ad Absurdum chestnut, Nevertheless, I'd correct my reference to it above to say that you should have the right to so yell even if you don't believe there's a fire. And you do have that right. I'm not aware of any jurisdiction where the act of yelling the word fire is prevented by law. Liability for consequences of doing it is another matter. But there are many jurisdictions, including mine and yours, where the very act of saying something is indeed criminalised, regardless of whether anybody suffers actual harm or loss as a result. And the number of things that you simply cannot say is growing fast, especially in the very institutions where freedom of expression matters most: schools, universities and the (credible) news media. Even, alas, unto art.

Message edited by author 2015-01-12 04:48:01.

Paul

Leica SL

01/12/2015 02:32:18 AM · #39

Originally posted by Neat:

Definetley not entering this, can only imagine what will be in this challenge!!

What do you mean? I don't understand.

Alex_Petrini

Sony Alpha a7R III

Sony FE 24-70mm f/2.8 GM

01/12/2015 04:41:24 AM · #40

Originally posted by Neat:

Definetley not entering this, can only imagine what will be in this challenge!!

What's wrong with Freedom of expression? I think this could be one of the most interesting challenges of the last month's. We have a similar one (in some way) with the SOPA challenge.

01/12/2015 04:41:46 AM · #41

I'll try and find time to photograph something for the challenge.

I think I was probably being a bit grumpy yesterday and should just have playfully pointed out the ironies instead of using words like ludicrous and sham. Was getting a bit fed up of the recent media circus with all the politicians and newspapers jumping on the bandwagon banging on about freedom of speech and non-censorship when up till now they have been anything but. As a British comedian tweeted.. 'I'm reading a defence of free speech in a paper that tried to have me arrested and charged with obscenity for making a joke about the Queen.'. Then it just turns into weasily hypocrisy and I think those thoughts spilled over into DPC.

Message edited by author 2015-01-12 06:14:20.

Neat

Canon Canon 1d x Mark II

Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM

01/12/2015 04:49:33 AM · #42

!!

Message edited by author 2015-01-13 08:27:06.

01/12/2015 05:27:31 AM · #43

I've had a shrill PM from a member whom I believe is barred from participating in the DPC forums, protesting my toxic opinions and my monstrous ego. Thus a forlorn and ineffectual PM is the only way this member has of expressing their condemnation. It seems incongruous that we should have a challenge to celebrate freedom of expression while continuing to bar a member of the community from exercising it.

Ironically, it's a person who once had SC force me to change a comment I'd made on a photograph â�� in which I had expressed my genuine negative view of it, but nothing of an ad hominem nature â�� simply because the member in question was offended by the comment.

We might first celebrate freedom of expression by seeing this member's right to it restored.

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

01/12/2015 05:35:26 AM · #44

Originally posted by ubique:

I had one of those as well. Perhaps it was copied and pasted. It was signed off as 'Speechless' which made me giggle. I didn't know anyone was barred from posting on the forums but if so, yes, this does seem like a good opportunity for an amnesty.

langdon

Canon EOS-20D

01/12/2015 07:08:47 AM · #45

Originally posted by gyaban:

However, could we please change the rules to expert, pretty please? It would allow for text and composites, which seems more in line with the topic.

Fixed, sorry, Expert was the intention originally.

gyaban

Canon EOS-1D X

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

01/12/2015 07:25:52 AM · #46

Originally posted by langdon:

Fixed, sorry, Expert was the intention originally.

Fantastic! Thanks a lot Langdon, much appreciated.

Mike

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Tamron SP 24-70mm f/2.8 Di VC USD Canon Mount

01/12/2015 07:47:10 AM · #47

Originally posted by Neat:

nothing wrong with freedom of expression, accept for my 'freedom' would be a lot different to what others would think, so some things are better left to one self, enough said!

translation - there is nothing wrong with expressing your opinion, but please keep your opinion to yourself.

Message edited by author 2015-01-12 07:47:24.

Tamron SP 24-70mm f/2.8 Di VC USD Canon Mount

01/12/2015 07:55:24 AM · #48

Originally posted by Mike:

Originally posted by Neat:

nothing wrong with freedom of expression, accept for my 'freedom' would be a lot different to what others would think, so some things are better left to one self, enough said!

translation - there is nothing wrong with expressing your opinion, but please keep your opinion to yourself.

Na, I don't think that is what Anita is saying. I don't think she's telling others to keep their opinions to themselves, she's saying that she keeps her opinions to herself because she expects people to disagree with her and that's too much trouble. That's entirely fair enough.

Mike

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

01/12/2015 07:59:37 AM · #49

so she's expressing that she doesn't want to express herself.