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DPChallenge Forums >> Rant >> Can we please get rid of all the editing rules?
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 12/03/2014 08:31:58 AM · #51
If the challenge is say "Apples" the challenge is to make an image perhaps involving "Apples" in the set time.

I am still of the view that we don't need loads of other rules to go with it.

The challenge is still a challenge.
 12/03/2014 09:45:47 AM · #52
Originally posted by rcollier:
Would that be the camera with built in HDR or multiple capture profiles to boost color saturation in camera, etc... That distinction doesn't really exist, it's pretty much a big grey area already.


That is why I won't do a Minimal challenge. There are a lot of settings that can be done in-camera and it's not worth my time to figure them out when I can get the same results shooting RAW and spending five minutes in Lightroom.
 12/03/2014 09:49:46 AM · #53
TEGWAR!
 12/03/2014 09:58:15 AM · #54


Message edited by author 2014-12-04 10:35:40.
 12/03/2014 10:01:37 AM · #55
I'm glad there are rules for a couple of reasons:

1. Regular "photography" -- pictures actually taken with a camera, rarely can stand on it's own next to fantasy creations. Life rarely is as interesting as fantasy unless you're on location with National Geographic.

2. Since you're allowed to draw in expert editing, you can create things that have nothing to do with photography. I created this, I like it, but it's not photography, imo.



It was a picture of a broken window frame with some clouds. The fire effect is entirely post processing. The birds are drawn in. There is hardly any photography here. So while it's "within the rules" of expert editing. I would really not want the site to move to things like this.

I can see where it would be nice to have a little more latitude. Tanguera's DQ because she added fur to part of the dress was understandable, but too bad. It would be nice to be able to "fix" something like that. It would be nice to simply be able to add more image area when you make a mistake of cropping too close in the camera. These things are small and stay within the realm of "photography", imo.

But if there were no rules, I'd probably wouldn't be interested in the site anymore. The rules have really helped me to stretch and grow as a photographer. I'll never be an artist with post processing. I'm amazed at the people who do the digital art so well. But it's not what I'm looking for in a photography site. I truly enjoy that there are expert editing challenges, even though I really don't particularly like doing them. Simply because I have learned a lot by trying them anyway. It has improved my editing skills for the type of editing I like to do.

Face it: knowledge is good. The mixture helps us grow in different areas. If there were no rules, we'd have a tendency to stick with what we like and know and not grow nearly as much.
 12/03/2014 10:05:23 AM · #56
Originally posted by Tiny:
If the challenge is say "Apples" the challenge is to make an image perhaps involving "Apples" in the set time.

I am still of the view that we don't need loads of other rules to go with it.

The challenge is still a challenge.


Exactly.

What is the purpose of this site? Most would say to become a better photographer. Various sectors in photography have differing rules. Photojournalism allows very little editing, portrait/wedding photography allows more editing, sales of photography as art is wide open. I think we all could agree that getting it "right" in-camera makes the processing easier, which should be the incentive to master your camera. Regardless of your area of interest in photography, a mediocre shot will not be successful. Two points: even photojournalism allows some basic adjustments and people have been "processing" their photos since the early days of film.

Each person should be able to decide what photography means to them and enter challenges using whatever techniques are important to them. For those who say they could not compete, I disagree.
 12/03/2014 10:05:27 AM · #57
Who benefits from "very restrictive processing" rules vs. "unlimited rules."
It may not be my idea, but I believe that the more you restrict what can be done in photoshop, the more the advantage goes to those who are very good at photoshop.(except minimal challenges, which favor better camera equipment). The more restrictions, the more a "photoshop oriented" site it becomes.

By that rationale, pure photography, and certainly creativity is diminished by restrictions, rather than freedom from them. Rather than creatively asking "how can I present on this topic" the photog asks- "how can I shoot this to process it within restrictions?"

Most people, I suspect, are not against lightroom and topaz and plug-ins that blur and lo-fi an image- but rather, can't stand the thought of losing to a "fantasy" image. and they know that the rule requiring "photographic in nature" has never held sway.

I know it won't happen, but I think Mike and Tiny have a very good point.
 12/03/2014 10:13:42 AM · #58
Wendy, I do agree that there should be some rules. Getting everyone to agree on what the rules should be is another thing! I would like to ban composites from most challenges. Take a photo and do whatever you want with it, but don't add elements from several photos. This would have allowed Samantha's photo to be validated.


Message edited by author 2014-12-03 10:15:03.
 12/03/2014 10:19:02 AM · #59


Message edited by author 2014-12-04 10:35:49.
 12/03/2014 10:34:16 AM · #60
I love composites. Just trying to find a way to relax restrictions without causing a stampede. :-)
 12/03/2014 10:47:35 AM · #61
Originally posted by Elaine:
Wendy, I do agree that there should be some rules. Getting everyone to agree on what the rules should be is another thing! I would like to ban composites from most challenges. Take a photo and do whatever you want with it, but don't add elements from several photos.


what if you can't tell if it was a composite? i've seen some pics that i was surprised to find they were composites. i say we allow composites and let the voters determine how photographic in nature the final image image needs to be.

12/03/2014 11:59:32 AM · #62
Originally posted by Mike:
Originally posted by Elaine:
Wendy, I do agree that there should be some rules. Getting everyone to agree on what the rules should be is another thing! I would like to ban composites from most challenges. Take a photo and do whatever you want with it, but don't add elements from several photos.


what if you can't tell if it was a composite? i've seen some pics that i was surprised to find they were composites. i say we allow composites and let the voters determine how photographic in nature the final image image needs to be.


Personally I am fine with "anything goes" for all challenges. Change will happen slowly, with many baby steps along the way. Many are afraid they cannot compete against Gyaban if all challenges are expert and others are concerned we will lose the "photography" aspect. I was trying to show we can have some rules without being as restrictive as it is now. If we did allow composites, I would want a rule that all components must be taken/created during the challenge period.
 12/03/2014 12:08:18 PM · #63
Originally posted by Mike:
for the longest time i loved this place, i shot end edited based on the rules, but then i realized something, when i wasn't shooting for dpc i still restricted myself to dpc rules. one day i realized i was doing this and i stopped and started letting my imagination go and taking my photographs and applying my style to them, and something happened. i got good at it, i developed a style I was happy with and it became really fun because i saw myself improving.

it wasn't until i broke free of the dpc editing mindset that i was able to really become the photographer i was happy with.

Neat, you mentioned i haven't entered anything since august, this is true, my membership expired and i have yet to see a reason to renew and i really dont see this place as a challenge any longer. i dont want to compete against some ruleset, i want to compete against what i consider some really good photographers and their best efforts, not their best effort under a handicap.


What you're saying, I have seen in many other artists who've never heard of DPC or have ever posted to challenge based communities. Be it instagrammers or people recently out of art school. So, I don't believe it's the editing rule set that pushes one into that corner. It is our own personal doing in uploading something to do well on the site (or what you think editors and reviewers want to see) vs being honest and posting what you like. If your portfolio mainly consists of shots that are to be posted or have been posted for DPC, for a our weekly theme or two. You'll always have DPC in mind. Not a bad thing, unless it bothers you. If it's not the editing rule set, it will be the style of what does well ala the avg. voters' aesthetic. If your style happens to fit, then it's easier. If you start going off the path, well that's when the inside struggle begins.

A lot of artists have this journey they go through to find their unique vision. Long story short, doing well on this site and add to that, being completely content here, does not always translate well into the outside world of photography (getting a job or art show, etc). It's a great place to be. It's a great tool. It's the community. You just have to know how to use it and not let it pull you down. Some people grow out of it and leave. Understandable.

People ask, what's the best camera? well it depends on so many things. Give me a list of what your budget is and what things you shoot, how you want to grow with your camera, etc.

If someone asked, I'd like to learn the basics or re-learn what I once loved about photography. Slow down the process and start to peel each layer off slowly. Learning more and more as I go. I'd suggest DPC. If you already know where you want to go and it's mainly about editing //fx.worth1000.com/
If you want a curated experience, 1x. If you just want to shoot (and not just edit) but post in a challenge type environment viewbug or dpreview.

Overall, doesn't the range of DPC rule sets already cover a wide spectrum? from Minimal to Expert? There seems to be an expert challenge every week. I wouldn't mind a minimal one. I just bought a crown graphic. Talk about slowing it down. Sometimes you have to get back to the roots/basics. I work better when I have constraints. Thus Free Studies used to overwhelm me and I used to mainly shoot to post here. The site tought me a lot about being resourceful in working with what one has, it's a great challenge. So if you're on set and you have to make it work, you find magic in the little things that you didn't before. Sometimes it makes the shot even better. So even though Basic was fun, and I did best in those. Loved to have an advanced editing challenge pop up as well. The challenge in learning to getting it right in camera, it's a personal journey. I believe, there's no wrong or right. Christopher Nolan still prefers to get as many of the effects done "in camera" , whilst other directors opt for more use of green screens. Depends on what your artistic vision is and how you prefer to work.

Message edited by author 2014-12-03 12:13:50.
 12/03/2014 12:11:59 PM · #64
Techo

12/03/2014 12:32:07 PM · #65
Originally posted by Techo:
Christopher Nolan still prefers to get as many of the effects done "in camera" , whilst other directors opt for more use of green screens.


imagine is the other directors were forced to use effects done in camera. we'd have Nolan winning ribbons because he was good at his style and the others were stuck trying to win in a realm that didnt fit them. the quality would suffer. instead we get a plethera of styles to choose from and the movies are better for it.

12/03/2014 12:37:47 PM · #66


Message edited by author 2014-12-04 10:35:56.
 12/03/2014 12:40:44 PM · #67
There are plenty of sites that offer Mike exactly what he wants...he's still here for some reason insisting that DPC should change to suit his wishes.

It's like going into a Chinese restaurant and insisting that they serve you tacos.
 12/03/2014 12:41:01 PM · #68
Originally posted by Mike:
Originally posted by Techo:
Christopher Nolan still prefers to get as many of the effects done "in camera" , whilst other directors opt for more use of green screens.


imagine is the other directors were forced to use effects done in camera. we'd have Nolan winning ribbons because he was good at his style and the others were stuck trying to win in a realm that didnt fit them. the quality would suffer. instead we get a plethera of styles to choose from and the movies are better for it.


It works the other way around too. Someone will always have a problem. True, he uses both effects to his vision. He has a style. He decides how he wants to work, not how other people see it. It's the journey. From what I get, this site is about the photography aspect. It's about the split second before you click the shutter. For some that's 10% of the work, others 90%.

Imagine if Woody Allen cared how well his movies would do at the box office, ala winning ribbons. For the record, he doesn't. As long as they(the studios) give him the opportunity to make movies without butting in, he will continue to do. Sometimes his flicks bring in the $$$, sometimes they don't. Some films appease the critics and are a dud at the box office. Others rake in the $$$ and the critics hate it. Some find a good balance. Maybe that's what we strive for as artists? Some don't care about either and just do their thing. Many camps to choose to be in.

ETA:
Mike: That particular shot that got DQed was posted to an advanced editing challenge. So you're saying the solution is for all challenges to run under expert editing? Adding another ruleset... if you add enough, there will not be enough of that something that differentiates each one. Level II advanced, you can add a little bit of not existing detail. Level III , a little more. Level IV , etc. till we reach Expert Editing. ETA2: So with all being "expert editing", will it still be a photography centric site? or DPC = Digital Photoshopping(Post) Challenge. Photoshopping is not only a modern(digital times) term either.

Message edited by author 2014-12-03 13:20:22.
 12/03/2014 12:42:51 PM · #69
Originally posted by Mike:
the problem with dpc is the overall quality is not great so if you win ribbon with bad practice you dont know its bad practice.

there is no reason some of these images should be ribboning except that the competition was and is poor. i dont consider it an accomplishment to ribbon here any longer, maybe that's arrogant but its how i feel. ...

So what exactly happened then with your last 30 challenge entries?

<bold emphasis added>
 12/03/2014 12:44:11 PM · #70


Message edited by author 2014-12-04 10:36:05.
 12/03/2014 12:50:52 PM · #71
Originally posted by Mike:
the problem with dpc is the overall quality is not great so if you win ribbon with bad practice you dont know its bad practice.

there is no reason some of these images should be ribboning except that the competition was and is poor. i dont consider it an accomplishment to ribbon here any longer, maybe that's arrogant but its how i feel. its like playing chess with my daughter, i could beat easily her but its not like I'm any good at chess so it isn't any measure of my skill either.


If the photography here is so poor, do you only hang around to bitch about it in the forums? There are other sites that offer what you are looking for.
 12/03/2014 12:53:11 PM · #72
Originally posted by LN13:


If the photography here is so poor, do you only hang around to bitch about it in the forums? There are other sites that offer what you are looking for.


good question, the conversation used to be good here, too.

i miss what it used to be.

challenging and fun.

Message edited by author 2014-12-03 12:54:40.
 12/03/2014 12:56:31 PM · #73
Originally posted by Mike:
Originally posted by Spork99:
There are plenty of sites that offer Mike exactly what he wants...he's still here for some reason insisting that DPC should change to suit his wishes.

It's like going into a Chinese restaurant and insisting that they serve you tacos.


it more like going to a Chinese restaurant and expecting good Chinese.


Not at all. If you want Chinese, go to a Chinese restaurant. If you want tacos, go to a Mexican restaurant.

You're here whining about the rules, going on about how poor the other entries are and how awesome your photography is without DPC rules. There are other sites, that are not DPC, that offer you exactly what you want...yet here you are, ordering tacos in a Chinese restaurant. If you want something, go someplace that offers what you want. Unless what you really want is people to hear your whining, then let DPC indulge you.

12/03/2014 12:57:27 PM · #74
wait? we're a Chinese restaurant? I thought this was a burger and fries truck...no wonder I don't seem to be fitting in ;P
 12/03/2014 12:59:04 PM · #75
Originally posted by RyanW:
wait? we're a Chinese restaurant? I thought this was a burger and fries truck...no wonder I don't seem to be fitting in ;P


Yeah, ask Mike about the tacos.
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