1st & 2nd shutter curtain on single shot?

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

11/11/2014 11:05:33 AM · #1

I have a project in mind that would need a flash pop when the shutter opens and when it closes. Has anyone here done that or have any ideas as to how to do it?

Thanks

Spork99

OM System OM-1

11/11/2014 11:27:41 AM · #2

Use T or B and pop the flash manually.

11/11/2014 11:27:52 AM · #3

how long of a shutter? you could do it manually.

11/11/2014 11:42:57 AM · #4

Of course, I have considered the manual option, but it's just not precise enough. I would use two strobes. The exposure lengths begin at about 1/20sec. through several seconds.

I am looking for a way to actually trigger one flash at first curtain opening (1st curtain sync) and the other at close (2nd curtain sync). Not "sometime" after opening and "sometime" before closing.

11/11/2014 12:07:54 PM · #5

another problem you will have is setting a strobe to second curtain as this only works with speedlights.

Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 35mm f/1.8G

11/11/2014 12:11:03 PM · #6

you can try this.

first you need a two triggers that can act as a shutter release. set one to trigger the camera and the other to fire a strobe. that should set the first light to fire when the shutter opens. next, have a speedlight on the hot shoe set to second curtain on the lowest power setting so it will set off the second strobe (set as an optical slave) at the end of the exposure.

edited for clarity.

Message edited by author 2014-11-11 12:17:55.

damjanev

Nikon D3200

11/11/2014 12:16:05 PM · #7

Originally posted by jemison:

If your flashgun has multi or stroboscopic mode, you can try the following approach:
- Use 1st curtain flash
- Set the frequency according to your shutter speed. 1 sec = 1 Hz, 1/20sec = 20 Hz. I would suggest to keep the shutter open just a tad more (e.g, for 20Hz go with 1/15 sec, or 21Hz for 1/20sec) but this will depend on the flash power setting (the actual duration of the flash pulse).
- Set the flash count to 2
- Experiment a lot :-)

Limitations to this approach, that i can think of at the moment, are:
- TTL is out of the question. You have to set the flash power manually.
- The shutter speed must be set manually so you can set the frequency accordingly.
- Most of the flash guns would not go with frequencies less than 1 Hz (1 pop each second)

Another option is to use some sort of flash/camera triggering hardware that allows you to set the duration between the flashes, like the ones used for high speed photography.

Message edited by author 2014-11-11 15:03:16.

11/11/2014 01:06:16 PM · #8

Originally posted by Mike:

another problem you will have is setting a strobe to second curtain as this only works with speedlights.

This is the key to the solution. I didn't realize that studio strobes don't normally allow for second curtain sync. I used to be able to use second curtain and studio strobes with my old Hassy, but remember that I had to use a different sync socket at the rear curtain.

So the solution is simple. Use one speedlight on-camera set to second curtain and any other flash through the sync. socket. I just got through testing with a cheapo wireless transmitter via sync socket to a 420 w/550 on camera. Also tried with a photogenic speedlight attached directly to the sync socket.

Thanks for the hint!

11/11/2014 01:34:05 PM · #9

i completely overlook that in my solution that you can't use a radio trigger and a hotshoe speedlight!

glad to hear the solution is even simpler.

11/11/2014 02:16:41 PM · #10

Originally posted by Mike:

i completely overlook that in my solution that you can't use a radio trigger and a hotshoe speedlight!...

I use the speedlight on the camera hotshoe and the wireless trigger is attached to the sync socket. I like your idea of using the on camera speedlight to optically trigger an off camera strobe, but I'm having trouble getting past the fact that it will trigger with the first curtain flash as well. I would love to be able to have a strobe w/softbox for that second curtain flash.

Message edited by author 2014-11-11 14:19:07.

11/11/2014 02:50:48 PM · #11

did you intend to have two different lights fire at two diferent times?

if the second strobe is set an an optical slave, it will trigger with the light that fires on the first curtain. the on camera speedlight will trigger the second curtain light as well. the problem will be having the strobe on the first curtain fire when the second curtain light fires.

the second curtain light should fire twice (assuming it can recycle fast enough) but the first curtain light will only fire on the first curtain.

right?

Message edited by author 2014-11-11 14:53:07.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

11/11/2014 04:00:55 PM · #12

The C1 (first curtain) source will not be a problem. It can be a strobe, speedlight, etc. and should only fire once. Whether hard wired via the sync socket or wirelessly triggered via a trigger attached to the sync socket, it should only fire on C1. I have tested many setups and they all work as predicted.

C2 is the problem. It can easily work with a hotshoe mounted speedlight set to ittl. It can only fire once at C2. That is how it should be. I don't want any of the flash units to ever trigger more than once.

That setup works, but is limited to the on camera light for C2. If I could carry it to the next step, the C2 light would be an off camera strobe w/softbox. How to trigger that C2 flash without it being triggered by C1 flash as well is the issue. A standard optical trigger won't work. Standard wireless triggers only sync on C1, so they won't work. I'm not sure if a ittl capable wireless trigger would work...don't have any at present.

I guess I could try to shield the off camera C2 strobe w/softbox's optical trigger so that the C1 flash doesn't trigger it.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

11/11/2014 09:17:16 PM · #13

Originally posted by jemison:

I guess I could try to shield the off camera C2 strobe w/softbox's optical trigger so that the C1 flash doesn't trigger it.

That's what I was thinking, if you're using a remote to trigger the shutter you can stand by the softbox and cover the sensor ... I'd suggest a piece of black carboard or plastic you can drop or pull away. You'll probably need a shutter time of around a half-second in order to have enough reaction-time between flashes.

Sounds like a really interesting project though ... hope you post some examples even if it doesn't work for a challenge entry.

Message edited by author 2014-11-11 21:17:38.

11/12/2014 07:41:37 AM · #14

Originally posted by jemison:

I guess I could try to shield the off camera C2 strobe w/softbox's optical trigger so that the C1 flash doesn't trigger it.

can you shield it from the first first strobe and have the speedlight aimed in a direction so it only picks up the second curtain flash?

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

11/12/2014 01:47:38 PM · #15

yes, that is what I meant...realize the wording was ambiguous. I have had to do similar things in the past with a couple of my really old strobes. The optical trigger on them worked even with a sync cord attached.

Originally posted by Mike:

Originally posted by jemison:

I guess I could try to shield the off camera C2 strobe w/softbox's optical trigger so that the C1 flash doesn't trigger it.

can you shield it from the first first strobe and have the speedlight aimed in a direction so it only picks up the second curtain flash?

MelonMusketeer

Nikon D7000

Nikon MF 50mm f/1.4

11/12/2014 02:09:25 PM · #16

If you can find a cord type hotshoe to flash remote, then you can put the hotshoe flash away from the camera and still maintain the C1 sync to it.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

11/12/2014 02:21:43 PM · #17

Originally posted by MelonMusketeer:

If you can find a cord type hotshoe to flash remote, then you can put the hotshoe flash away from the camera and still maintain the C1 sync to it.

I think the hotshoe is for the C2 flash, but yeah, you could get it off the camera that way.