Suggesting a change to the voting guidelines.

05/20/2014 10:19:01 AM · #1

I'd like to suggest an update to the FAQ description of the voting guidelines. I'm fairly new here, and I've scoured this place for some sort of explanation on how votes should be cast. I realize this place has been around for a long time, and that existing rankings and "Average Point" competitions could all be torn asunder by changes to the guidelines, and god forbid that happen. But that said, I just can't make heads or tails of how voting is REALLY supposed to work.

Here's the current description...

How does voting work?

When you go to the voting page, thumbnail images of all of the submissions for the current challenge are displayed, along with the vote (if any) you've given to that picture. To start voting on photos, click the first thumbnail. Then, rate each photograph on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the best. You may always stop and continue voting at a later time. You do not need to enter a photo in order to be able to vote.

OK, so we're supposed to rate photos on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being "best". Does that mean that everyone should give their favorite photo a '10' and then rank everything else behind it, with their least favorite being a '1', working out the fractions in their head as they go along in some arbitrary order, trying to remember how many of each number they gave? If so, it sure makes it easier to understand why I've seen 1's on some photos, but it makes it impossible to comprehend why the scale we use when voting ranges from "Bad" to "Good" instead. "Worst" to "Best" would make more sense given the above description, and at least allow me to give out 1's like everyone else. But with the current scale under a photo, I have a tough time slamming even the most questionable things I've seen here with a '1' because that is essentially me saying, "Dude, that's the worst photo ever - that's how 'bad' that thing is."

So, which one is it? Can we either fix the text in the scale to match the description, or change the text to fit the criteria of what makes for a "good" photo and what makes for a "bad" one?

My apologies if you've all been through this before, but unless you're going to explain how Good and Best are really the same things (wouldn't Best be closer to "Great" or "Amazing"?), whatever you went through didn't resolve anything.

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 17-35mm f/2.8D IF-ED

05/20/2014 10:33:36 AM · #2

And if you're looking for a suggestion that would really clear things up, without disturbing the status quo, how about...

How does voting work?

When you go to the voting page, thumbnail images of all of the submissions for the current challenge are displayed, along with the vote (if any) you've given to that picture. To start voting on photos, click the first thumbnail. Then, put on your anonymous critic hat and rate each photo on a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being "Loved it!!" and 1 being "Hated it!!" You may always stop and continue voting at a later time. You do not need to enter a photo in order to be able to vote.

Then just change the ends of the voting scale to reflect the above described end points and we're probably good.

At least this way the process being used by most of the folks here is documented.

Message edited by author 2014-05-20 10:35:40.

tanguera

Nikon D750

05/20/2014 11:21:25 AM · #3

Ooooh, can o' worms!

I think we are encouraged to vote on each image individually, rather than compare it to any other image. When we are done voting, we can see how we voted the challenge, organized by vote. At that point, you can change your vote if you feel that some images are better than others in the same vote category.

Tiny

Apple iPad mini 4

05/20/2014 12:17:21 PM · #4

Its ok thanks anyway.

Message edited by author 2014-05-20 12:19:17.

Garry

Canon EOS-7D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

05/20/2014 12:21:13 PM · #5

Been a member at DPC for a few years and don't think I have EVER read the voting guidelines.

Always just voted how I wanted to. As long as you're consistent, then do your thing.

posthumous

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

05/20/2014 12:46:08 PM · #6

This has been argued many times, and nobody can agree, which is why the guidelines remain vague and rarely change. In your rewording, for example, some people would argue against using love and hate because they suffer under the delusion that they are objective. Some others would argue against the term "critic."

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/20/2014 12:57:03 PM · #7

Originally posted by Garry:

As long as you're consistent ...

This is the only important consideration ... as long as each person votes consistently, regardless of their method or criteria, the overall scores will also remain consistent.

Just as we don't all agree on which is the "best" photo in any challenge, it is likewise impossible to devise a voting system which will work for everyone.

There are probably hundreds of threads in which people describe/propose/argue-for specific voting criteria, but nothing has ever been proposed which will work better than what we have now.

Mike

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Tamron SP 24-70mm f/2.8 Di VC USD Canon Mount

05/20/2014 01:05:13 PM · #8

if only Venser were still here..

Spork99

OM System OM-1

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

05/20/2014 01:06:08 PM · #9

I just vote how I want, some people agree with me, the rest are wrong.

David Ey

Nikon D80

Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f2.8D

05/20/2014 01:13:17 PM · #10

I wish there was a zero.

ambaker

Google Glass Google Glass

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L USM

05/20/2014 01:17:27 PM · #11

This is the first time, in a very long time, that the word "chortle" has crossed my mind.

Art Roflmao

Canon EOS-6D Mark II

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

05/20/2014 01:25:14 PM · #12

Can't blame the guy for trying.

IMO, everyone's voting habits evolve over time, which is fine with me. I've been here so long, I currently vote telepathically.

...or maybe I meant pathologically. ...one of those.

Pentax DA 18-135mm F3.5-5.6ED AL [IF] WR DC

05/20/2014 01:53:49 PM · #13

My bad. Can't believe I thought that a photography website would have some sort of guidelines by which you'd want to cast a vote in a challenge. Having as many as you'd like seems so much easier - as long as you're consistent.

Time to break out the dice.

tnun

Ricoh GR III

05/20/2014 02:06:07 PM · #14

appreciate the discomfort... I have been searching for years for a rationale to bestow one votes with the joy and abandon with which they have been showered upon me.

Mike

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Tamron SP 24-70mm f/2.8 Di VC USD Canon Mount

05/20/2014 02:45:42 PM · #15

sometime i'll give a one just to see if someone calls me a troll in the score threads.

Message edited by author 2014-05-20 14:45:57.

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

05/20/2014 04:00:41 PM · #16

Originally posted by Mike:

sometime i'll give a one just to see if someone calls me a troll in the score threads.

Which would be fine if we knew who gave us those 1's.

Spork99

OM System OM-1

05/20/2014 04:04:59 PM · #17

Originally posted by backdoorhippie:

Originally posted by Mike:
sometime i'll give a one just to see if someone calls me a troll in the score threads.

Which would be fine if we knew who gave us those 1's.

Some members tend to take low votes personally, no matter how awful their entry.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/20/2014 04:16:59 PM · #18

You can't have a bell curve without a few outliers.

In 12 years of reading these threads I have yet to see someone start a thread to complain about votes of ten given to an "imperfect" image ...

Despite all of the complaints and concerns the voting has remained remarkably consistent over the years, perhaps especially surprising since there is an ever-changing electorate ...

There are some excellent statistical analyses and discussions of DPC voting patterns in the forum "archives" which for the most part show that the problems people perceive in the voting system either don't exist or have a negligible effect on the challenge results ... links to the stats themselves are on

DJWoodward's profile page.

EstimatedEyes

Fujifilm GFX 50R

Fujifilm GF 45mm f/2.8

05/20/2014 04:21:18 PM · #19

Originally posted by Spork99:

Some members tend to take low votes personally, no matter how awful their entry.

Some members also tend to take their high/low votes personally, no matter how bad their judgment. :-)

spiritualspatula

Panasonic LUMIX DMC-LX100

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

05/21/2014 01:50:57 AM · #20

Originally posted by backdoorhippie:

Originally posted by Mike:
sometime i'll give a one just to see if someone calls me a troll in the score threads.

Which would be fine if we knew who gave us those 1's.

No, because then there would be a substantiated witchhunt, as compared to the unofficial rantings about trolls and such. Anonymity is absolutely critical, and that's made evident by how ridiculously hurt everybody gets by anything but glowing results. If we collectively grew up and accepted critique better, we'd be in a different boat, but I'm not holding my breath.

Vote how you want. Be consistent. I've given 1's to winners and 10's to losers. Vote how you feel, be confident in it.

Having established guidelines would only anger people further and lead to further strife and frivolous arguments over "does this adhere to x criteria?" more than we already get (how could anybody not vote high for this glorious shot!?). The results here currently and will always reflect a vote based on the accessibility of a photo. This is logical, since we have all levels of abilities here and we're going on averages. Note the results of the mock Ansel Adams entry-

And this is fine. Understand that the voting results express a particular aesthetic peculiar to the population of DPC and that it doesn't necessarily translate beyond this community. Also note that those that fail to succeed here may be failing at the DPC aesthetic but achieving photographically without being recognized. It's for this reason that we encourage commenting and things like the Posthumous Ribbons which give additional attention to things a bit more off the beaten path.

But again, to reiterate, any vote is inherently legitimate if it is honest. Do not degrade that.

chalice

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8L Macro IS USM

05/21/2014 02:20:15 AM · #21

spiritualspatula: Thanks for posting the mock/real Ansel Adams photo. I had never seen this one and the comments are priceless.

undieyatch

Olympus E-10

Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM

05/21/2014 03:03:44 AM · #22

Guidance for evaluating a visual image: One should probably refrain from voting until they figure it out.