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05/08/2014 05:18:12 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by SaraR:
Originally posted by jab119:
Originally posted by SaraR:
Originally posted by jab119:
actually more people are killed by people with out guns than with guns, check the stats |
Not according to the FBI |
missing lots of data on other types of deaths. |
Such as? |
That has me scratching my head as well. When it comes to ways to murder people i'd say that list was pretty comprehensive particularly as it has an, 'Other weapons or weapons not stated' section. Black magic and the evil eye perhaps. |
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05/08/2014 05:20:20 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by TrollMan:
I absolutely don't think that people should have easy access to guns either.
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that's is a myth spread by anti-gun groups and the media.
People don't have easy access to guns. If you purchase it legally through an authorized gun dealer, over the internet, at a gun shop or gun show, you go through a background check. Unless you have a concealed carry license/permit, which means you have already gone through a background check and proper training. You STILL have to fill out the AFT ffl form 4473 to purchase the weapon legally. If you purchase or sell to an individual, called a person to person sale, at a gun show, neighbor hood park or dark ally way, a back ground check is not required by law.
Smart people will only sell person to person using an FFL transfer which involves a background check. If you are stupid enough to sell a firearm with out a proper FFL transfer, your an idiot. Even if you are selling it to your uncle Joe.
Bad guys have an easier time purchasing illegal weapons from other bad guys. They are called bad guys cause they don't care about the law. |
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05/08/2014 05:25:43 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by rooum:
Originally posted by SaraR:
Originally posted by jab119:
Originally posted by SaraR:
Originally posted by jab119:
actually more people are killed by people with out guns than with guns, check the stats |
Not according to the FBI |
missing lots of data on other types of deaths. |
Such as? |
That has me scratching my head as well. When it comes to ways to murder people i'd say that list was pretty comprehensive particularly as it has an, 'Other weapons or weapons not stated' section. Black magic and the evil eye perhaps. |
they left out the people murdered by drunk drivers, the people murdered by distracted driver texting, phone calls and what not. |
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05/08/2014 05:33:33 PM · #29 |
| Hey. I have a score to settle with someone. I'm gonna go drink a beer, grab my cellphone, jump in my car and see if I can get me some justice. |
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05/08/2014 05:34:24 PM · #30 |
Quick questions to  jab119.
Exactly what is involved in a background check. How do you assertain without fingerprints that the informtion relating to a person's record is indeed accurate, and is this background check mandatory in all states.
Ray
Message edited by author 2014-05-08 17:34:38. |
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05/08/2014 05:35:02 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by jab119:
Originally posted by rooum:
Originally posted by SaraR:
Originally posted by jab119:
Originally posted by SaraR:
Originally posted by jab119:
actually more people are killed by people with out guns than with guns, check the stats |
Not according to the FBI |
missing lots of data on other types of deaths. |
Such as? |
That has me scratching my head as well. When it comes to ways to murder people i'd say that list was pretty comprehensive particularly as it has an, 'Other weapons or weapons not stated' section. Black magic and the evil eye perhaps. |
they left out the people murdered by drunk drivers, the people murdered by distracted driver texting, phone calls and what not. |
Ah, right. Gotcha now. Quite a wide definition of 'murder' you are using there. |
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05/08/2014 05:38:54 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by jab119:
they left out the people murdered by drunk drivers, the people murdered by distracted driver texting, phone calls and what not. |
... actually, I would think that to fall into the category of murder one would have to prove intent... at least in the 1st degree category.
Ray |
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05/08/2014 05:41:47 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by jab119:
they left out the people murdered by drunk drivers, the people murdered by distracted driver texting, phone calls and what not. |
... actually, I would think that to fall into the category of murder one would have to prove intent... at least in the 1st degree category.
Ray |
Right. Furthermore, I'd wager the FBI "murder list" doesn't include death due to firearm accidents. |
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05/08/2014 05:46:03 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by TrollMan:
I absolutely don't think that people should have easy access to guns either. My point was only that blaming guns, nuclear weapons or baseball bats for murders is like blaming the existence and easy access to donuts for obesity. |
Or like blaming the existence and easy access to cigarettes or DDT for cancer. |
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05/08/2014 05:48:12 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by SaraR:
Originally posted by jab119:
missing lots of data on other types of deaths. |
Such as? |
Anvils. Research any Saturday morning cartoon. |
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05/08/2014 05:49:50 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by jab119:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Nuclear weapons don't kill people; people kill people... therefore everyone should have easy access to nuclear weapons. |
that's typical response I hear a lot when people dont like the truth |
"The earth is flat" is a typical response I hear a lot when people state the truth. |
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05/08/2014 05:56:12 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by TrollMan:
Guns don't kill people; people do. |
People with guns kill people. People without guns, not so often. |
How about this then
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05/08/2014 06:05:15 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Quick questions to jab119.
Exactly what is involved in a background check. How do you assertain without fingerprints that the informtion relating to a person's record is indeed accurate, and is this background check mandatory in all states.
Ray |
All states require a background check. Some states are stricter than others requiring wait periods, or the number of firearms you can purchase at 1 time or within a 30 day period. Fingerprints are indeed required to obtain a Concealed Carry License / permit. But not for general legal purchase.
for a NON CHL holder, A copy of your Drivers license is required, your social security # is required. The background check goes through the FBI. The AFT form 4473, is kept in the safe of the person/company/shop doing the FFL transfer. The ATF can request these documents at any time the want. |
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05/08/2014 06:08:20 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by bohemka:
Right. Furthermore, I'd wager the FBI "murder list" doesn't include death due to firearm accidents. |
Yes it does, The FBI list is condensed, the categories are well expanded if you go to the CDC web site, you will get an ENORMOUS amount of data broken out way more than the FBI site.
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05/08/2014 06:12:01 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by rooum:
Ah, right. Gotcha now. Quite a wide definition of 'murder' you are using there.
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you don't consider a person being killed by a drunk driver murder? Every prosecutor in the world calls death by drunk drivers Murder, ever family who lost a loved one to a drunk driver calls it murder.
you kill someone on accident or on purpose, its murder. |
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05/08/2014 06:12:04 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by TrollMan:
I absolutely don't think that people should have easy access to guns either. My point was only that blaming guns, nuclear weapons or baseball bats for murders is like blaming the existence and easy access to donuts for obesity. |
Or like blaming the existence and easy access to cigarettes or DDT for cancer. |
Exactly. And just like people kill them selves with cigarettes - just 'cause they can; people will continue to get guns and kill just 'cause they can. In Norway, not even police officers are allowed to carry guns without permission case by case. There is on average ONE shot fired every year by police in Norway and most years no killings at all (by police). I think ONE person was killed by a police officer back in 2011.
In 2011 (bad year apparently) the killings by weapon was like this (total murders 34 - population close to 5 million people).
Knife 17
By fighting (violence without weapon) 8
Strangling 3
Axe (seen Vikings?? ;) ) 2
Shotgun 2
Handgun 1
It's very easy to get guns in Norway - by means of being member of a gun club or simply a collector. And any criminal that wants a gun, will find a way to get it. So the access to guns doesn't seem to be a big cause of the murder rate. But we have no capital punishment (government setting example by telling its people that killing is an ok punishment when someone is bad) and most importantly, we have an extremely low rate of unemployment and poverty. |
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05/08/2014 06:12:58 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by jab119:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Nuclear weapons don't kill people; people kill people... therefore everyone should have easy access to nuclear weapons. |
that's typical response I hear a lot when people dont like the truth |
"The earth is flat" is a typical response I hear a lot when people state the truth. |
the earth was flat longer than it has been round. |
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05/08/2014 06:15:04 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by jab119:
Originally posted by bohemka:
Right. Furthermore, I'd wager the FBI "murder list" doesn't include death due to firearm accidents. |
Yes it does, The FBI list is condensed, the categories are well expanded if you go to the CDC web site, you will get an ENORMOUS amount of data broken out way more than the FBI site. |
No, the FBI's murder list does not include death due to accidents. For 2007, for example, there were more than 30,000 deaths due to firearms, and 10,000 of those were considered murder (per the FBI site). |
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05/08/2014 06:20:24 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by jab119:
All states require a background check. |
..but they only apply to DUMB criminals since 40+ states do not require ANY background check at gun shows or private sales, and straw purchases can be used to circumvent background checks anyway. |
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05/08/2014 06:30:57 PM · #45 |
. Quoted wrong post.
Message edited by author 2014-05-08 18:34:18. |
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05/08/2014 06:34:22 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by jab119:
Originally posted by bohemka:
Right. Furthermore, I'd wager the FBI "murder list" doesn't include death due to firearm accidents. |
Yes it does, The FBI list is condensed, the categories are well expanded if you go to the CDC web site, you will get an ENORMOUS amount of data broken out way more than the FBI site. |
No, the FBI data is straight homicide figures. The FBI records 8,874 homicides by firearm in 2010, the CDC data shows there were 31,672 firearm fatalities in the same year.
Oops, Sorry Bohemka - I think I just Yankoed you!
Message edited by author 2014-05-08 18:43:02. |
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05/08/2014 06:47:45 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by TrollMan:
It's very easy to get guns in Norway |
"Easy" in Norway is "impossible" by U.S. standards: mandated safety training and tests, strict storage requirements, nobody under 21 allowed to own a handgun, guns must be unloaded when transported, etc. Many countries have similar laws without apparent affect on hunting or sport shooting, yet in America those measures would be considered "taking our guns away." |
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05/08/2014 07:22:35 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by jab119:
[quote=rooum]
Every prosecutor in the world calls death by drunk drivers Murder, ever family who lost a loved one to a drunk driver calls it murder.
you kill someone on accident or on purpose, its murder. |
Nonsense. for example, In the UK it is only 'Murder' if the car was used as a weapon to intentionally kill someone. If the killing was not intentional then there is 'Manslaugher' or 'Gross negligence manslaughter' . Killing someone through drink driving is most commonly known as 'Causing death by dangerous driving'.
Details here if you're interested.
The terms 'to kill' and 'to murder' are different things which i think you are conflating (which is perhaps why you are expecting to see accidental deaths by firearms on an FBI murder list).
Message edited by author 2014-05-08 19:25:58. |
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05/08/2014 08:24:43 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by TrollMan:
Guns don't kill people; people do. |
People with guns kill people. People without guns, not so often. |
How about this then |
You DO understand the difference between "not so often" and "never" ...
Also, the kill rate in the example you cited it pretty low (zero?) compared to recent gun-related rampages, and I'd say it's a lot easier to take on someone wielding a knife (like hit him with a chair) than to confront someone with a gun who can kill you at a distance and through such improvised "protection" ... |
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05/08/2014 08:37:33 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by TrollMan:
Guns don't kill people; people do. |
People with guns kill people. People without guns, not so often. |
How about this then |
You DO understand the difference between "not so often" and "never" ...
Also, the kill rate in the example you cited it pretty low (zero?) compared to recent gun-related rampages, and I'd say it's a lot easier to take on someone wielding a knife (like hit him with a chair) than to confront someone with a gun who can kill you at a distance and through such improvised "protection" ... |
ok how about
this
Or this
By the way both of those are recent.....My point You dont need a firearm to cause pain...and sometimes death like the prom girl
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