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DPChallenge Forums >> Hardware and Software >> Mirror less cameras ?
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Showing posts 1 - 14 of 14, (reverse)
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 03/16/2014 02:10:41 PM · #1
I am taking a course in the "camera' at a local art school. There are 21 of us in the class all with Canon or Nikon SLR's
some new, some entry level, all with a variety of lenses. I took the class hoping to understand the 'physics' of the camera and
to understand what I need to do to gain some consistency. The instructor is a 'professional' photographer having worked
30 years with film and 9 years with digital cameras. We are halfway through the class and the only thing we've learned is
that our SLR's are outdated and that the future is mirror less cameras and 'fast' lenses. This is the camera she is recommending
to all of us, regardless of our experience, skill level or personal goals.

//www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/968554-REG/panasonic_dmc_g6kk_lumix_dmc_g6_mirrorless_micro.html

We've figured out that she doesn't work for Panasonic but I am too new to photography to challenge her and am beginning to
wonder why I am schlepping around a heavy SLR and lens when I could be carrying something in my pocket that gets a better
result.

I apologize if this has been discussed before. I don't frequent 'equipment' discussions although maybe if I had I would not be so clueless.
I'd appreciate another point of view.

Thanks
Jane
 03/16/2014 02:26:05 PM · #2
The only 'outdated' camera is one that doesn't take photographs anymore.
 03/16/2014 02:27:19 PM · #3
Mirrorless won't get you better results, it is however a lot easier to live with, having something much smaller and much lighter shouldn't be underestimated. The sensors in these mirrorless cameras are just as good as in their bigger brothers but the ergonomics are probably not as good, this is easily outweighed though by the fact that they are always with you. I could never go back to using a big SLR.
 03/16/2014 02:49:59 PM · #4
It sounds like this instructor has a preference for this particular camera, but there is not a thing wrong with your D90. A nicer or different kind of camera can remove some limitations, but the most important component is always the 10" behind the viewfinder. Check out some of the high scoring entries that have been taken with lesser equipment.
 03/16/2014 02:55:13 PM · #5
Originally posted by MeMex2:
the only thing we've learned is that our SLR's are outdated and that the future is mirror less cameras and 'fast' lenses.

The nice thing about older and lesser equipment is that it is affordable and usually still takes photos as good as when new. I just bought a well used Rebel XTi that See was selling. Works great and gives me an inexpensive DSLR that I am comfortable leaving in my truck, so that I always have a good camera with me. Bought a pair of kit lenses (18-55 and 55-250) for a sweet price on Craigslist to go with it. My first challenge entry with it is waiting to go.

Message edited by author 2014-03-16 14:55:46.
 03/16/2014 02:55:22 PM · #6
As one who is "blessed" with large hands, small cameras are a hindrance to me.

There are very few hard and fast rules that are true for all. You can have too many pixels for a given sensor size. Crowded too close together electronic "noise" from neighboring pixels becomes a problem. For a given number of pixels, a larger sensor is better. It allows for each pixel or "photo site" to be larger, allowing more light to fall on that pixel, thus increasing sensitivity.

The camera that fits best in your hands, that feels the most balanced, and whose controls seem most naturally arranged, is the one that is likely going to work best for you.

What is perfect for the teacher, may or may not be perfect for you.
03/16/2014 03:05:39 PM · #7
There are a lot of cameras out there that are capable of producing professional quality work, including most DSLR's that came out in the past 3-5 years, and many of the mirrorless models that have been produced in the past couple of years. There isn't a one size fits all answer to which one is best for all uses, however. I wouldn't want to use that little Panasonic for shooting sports, for example, because it doesnt have the autofocus speed that a DSLR does. By the same token, I wouldn't want to use a massive DSLR for shooting on the street.

I have a small mirrorless camera that I use for about 90% of my shooting, and for most things, I would never go back to the huge, heavy DSLR. But when I need a DSLR, I need a DSLR. So I still have, and use, a D800.

The instructor does bring up a good point about lenses, however. If you've never had one, a high quality, fast lens is a life changing experience.
 03/16/2014 03:18:05 PM · #8
The camera has little to do with how good your photographs will be. That being said, I do enjoy my small mirrorless camera and will never buy another SLR. I don't do any studio work and hardly ever shoot photographs at home so mirrorless works best for me. I wouldn't want to go much smaller because of what ambaker said. I'm 6'3" and have no issues handling a mirrorless camera.

Message edited by author 2014-03-16 15:56:18.
 03/16/2014 03:41:28 PM · #9
The only reason for the mirror in an SLR is to enable an optical viewfinder with a single lens system. A secondary purpose of the mirror system is to house the AF sensors, but that's completely secondary. The SLR design is all about optical viewing through the taking lens.
Once the need/desire for the optical viewfinder goes away due to evolution of EVF technology, the mirror's days are numbered. I suppose that, like many other things, there will still be demand for traditional DSLRs. The AF systems on mirrorless cameras are not yet at the performance levels of higher-end DSLRs, so for applications requiring fast AF and AF tracking in particular, the DSLR will continue to hold its position for some time. But the mirror system is large, heavy, limiting on camera performance(frame rate) and costly. The writing is truly on the wall.
All that said, my next camera will definitely be a DSLR. Perhaps the one after that, in another 6-8 years, will be mirrorless.
 03/16/2014 04:46:30 PM · #10
Any photography teacher should be teaching you photography and not getting into the discussions on brands.
If they were suggesting this to those who are only borrowing equipment and looking to purchase after the course it would be understandable.

Having said that, I sold my canon gear to go all in with mirror less (7d, 60d, flashes and about 6 or seven lenses)
I love my Olympus m43 cameras and new fast lenses. So light and amazing image quality.
If you are thinking of updating it would be a really good idea. The G6 is an excellently prices m43 camera that does both great stills and video. I can see why they were recommending it.

Most of the more recent work here flickr is with my new Olympus gear. I LOVE IT!!!!!!

Message edited by author 2014-03-16 16:47:46.
 03/16/2014 04:52:42 PM · #11
Thanks for your responses. I am not deluding myself into thinking I'll be a better photographer with a different camera. It just feels so freeing to know that I do
not have to shlep my DSLR, 55/300 lens and tripod all over the place to get a decent quality photograph. I feel completely clueless. I packed and hauled all this
gear all over Sicily for 3 months last year and the best shots I got were with my iPhone. I have never taken the time to learn how to shoot manually and really get
the relationship between iso, shutter speed, aperture etc. That was the reason for this course.
I developed so many bad habits when I got into this. I wanted an 18-200 for design work and became addicted to that range knowing that the Nikkor lens was
especially slow and only worked with a tripod.

I thought you were all going to say that I would not be able to get good DOF or rapid fire or a technically good image with, in essence, a point and shoot.
Thanks for the reinforcement about a 'fast' lens Ann and thanks to all of you for your opinions as I believe all of you (I know your work) before the instructor.
Jane
 03/16/2014 09:21:53 PM · #12
Originally posted by kirbic:
The only reason for the mirror in an SLR is to enable an optical viewfinder with a single lens system. A secondary purpose of the mirror system is to house the AF sensors, but that's completely secondary. The SLR design is all about optical viewing through the taking lens.
Once the need/desire for the optical viewfinder goes away due to evolution of EVF technology, the mirror's days are numbered. I suppose that, like many other things, there will still be demand for traditional DSLRs. The AF systems on mirrorless cameras are not yet at the performance levels of higher-end DSLRs, so for applications requiring fast AF and AF tracking in particular, the DSLR will continue to hold its position for some time. But the mirror system is large, heavy, limiting on camera performance(frame rate) and costly. The writing is truly on the wall.
All that said, my next camera will definitely be a DSLR. Perhaps the one after that, in another 6-8 years, will be mirrorless.


Indeed. Horses for courses.

There is no way you'll see mirrorless cameras replacing DSLRS for sporting or action photography for a decent amount of time. The tech just isn't there yet, and they still aren't on par for ISO (though that gap is closing faster, I feel). DoF is a real consideration, as well; they really do look fundamentally different, but the same can be said of a full frame camera vs medium format. Horses for courses.

Would a sports shooter prefer a mirrorless? Most likely not, other than the fact that there is some use in some of the smaller sensor sizes for "multiplying" reach, but then on the other hand, would a street shooter like Jagar find more utility in a DSLR, where silent shooting, unobtrusiveness, and portability are paramount? Absolutely not.

In general, I'm pretty dubious of anybody that advocates the impossibility of getting results from a given system. Perhaps 90% of the time there is a legitimate and perfectly fine go around if you are willing to accept some limitations in place of throwing your money at everything as a solution. This runs the gamut of lighting a portrait to capturing an action shot to creating a wonderful landscape. Today, with some tinkering and messing about you can do all those things without throwing immense amounts of money at things; the cameras today are really quite top notch and extremely versatile.
 03/16/2014 10:20:18 PM · #13
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
...
... the cameras today are really quite top notch and extremely versatile.


Indeed. Some cameras are better for some things, but nearly everything available today is a very good general purpose camera.

I shot a wedding with a RX100II a few weeks ago. It was an odd, last minute situation, and if I'd known I was going to be shooting a wedding I would have brought more camera, but the results I got from a $700 compact were good, solid, professional results. I would have liked a faster lens to get shallower DOF on a few shots, but for 98% of the images, the happy couple will never notice the difference between the RX100 and the D800 and fast glass that costs ten times as much and weighs enough to be a good boat anchor.

I also shoot with the RX100II every day out on the street, so I know how to shoot people with it, so there's that as well...practice still counts, regardless of camera.
 04/11/2014 08:53:57 AM · #14
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
Originally posted by kirbic:
The only reason for the mirror in an SLR is to enable an optical viewfinder with a single lens system. A secondary purpose of the mirror system is to house the AF sensors, but that's completely secondary. The SLR design is all about optical viewing through the taking lens.
Once the need/desire for the optical viewfinder goes away due to evolution of EVF technology, the mirror's days are numbered. I suppose that, like many other things, there will still be demand for traditional DSLRs. The AF systems on mirrorless cameras are not yet at the performance levels of higher-end DSLRs, so for applications requiring fast AF and AF tracking in particular, the DSLR will continue to hold its position for some time. But the mirror system is large, heavy, limiting on camera performance(frame rate) and costly. The writing is truly on the wall.
All that said, my next camera will definitely be a DSLR. Perhaps the one after that, in another 6-8 years, will be mirrorless.


Indeed. Horses for courses.

There is no way you'll see mirrorless cameras replacing DSLRS for sporting or action photography for a decent amount of time. The tech just isn't there yet, and they still aren't on par for ISO (though that gap is closing faster, I feel). DoF is a real consideration, as well; they really do look fundamentally different, but the same can be said of a full frame camera vs medium format. Horses for courses.

Would a sports shooter prefer a mirrorless? Most likely not, other than the fact that there is some use in some of the smaller sensor sizes for "multiplying" reach, but then on the other hand, would a street shooter like Jagar find more utility in a DSLR, where silent shooting, unobtrusiveness, and portability are paramount? Absolutely not.

In general, I'm pretty dubious of anybody that advocates the impossibility of getting results from a given system. Perhaps 90% of the time there is a legitimate and perfectly fine go around if you are willing to accept some limitations in place of throwing your money at everything as a solution. This runs the gamut of lighting a portrait to capturing an action shot to creating a wonderful landscape. Today, with some tinkering and messing about you can do all those things without throwing immense amounts of money at things; the cameras today are really quite top notch and extremely versatile.


Watch the Sony A6000 video on the focusing system! Pretty incredible. My Nikons really never impressed me in their tracking ability. But I'm neither a bird or a sports shooter, so perhaps it's a practice issue. The Sony makes it look pretty easy (at least in the video).

Ann, that's pretty impressive to shoot a wedding with the RX100II!

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