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05/14/2004 10:29:17 AM · #1 |
I think it would be nice to have a place to anonymously offer some information about the current challenge entries.
For example, on my own Opposites entry, there's something I would like to say to the votinng public, but I cannot, because it would give away my identity. (In my case, it has to do with people reading my title, getting misdirected by it, and then not seeing the obvious opposites. Kind of like one of those brain games where you are tricked into not seeing it. It's right there BOLDLY in front of people's noses--but they are looking past it, because it's different than what they are expecting, especially given the title.)
But enough about my own case. I was just thinking about this in general. What if we had a forum where you could post anonymous comments about the entries? Wouldn't that also solve the PM problem? People could supplement the information about a particular entry (their own), without giving away who's entry it was?
It may help people understand some of the entries. Or at least provide a legal channel to provide supplemental information anonymously. Voters may or may not look at this, but at least it would be out there, and those puzzled by entries would have a place to look for answers.
As to abuse, while the names would be hidden, the posters name should be available to the site council.
I am just suggesting we might try something like this. I don't know how well it will work out in practice, but perhaps it will help to relieve peoples frustrations to be able to explain something about their entry. I know in this case, it would have relieved some of mine.
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05/14/2004 12:00:47 PM · #2 |
I can understand your thoughts on this, and I can see some merit in the idea. The thing is, and I have seen this discussed in various threads before, and you will find differing opinions, I believe a picture should stand on it's own. Each challenge has a specific topic, and that is part of the challenge, to convey your take on that topic in a photograph. Otherwise it would be just, everybody submit your favorite photo you've taken this week. If people aren't getting it then either a) maybe you need improvement in that area or b) don't worry about it and just be happy with your work for your own satisfaction. Or, maybe usually you are right on target, and from time to time you tap into a creative edge that maybe doesn't connect with a lot of people.
Let me give an example, if I were looking for a print to hang on my wall, I certainly would not want to hang something that required a small sign with it so that it could be fully appreciated. After all, it is photography, not creative writing. That's what we are striving for as a photographer, to tell a story, or invoke a feeling, etc. with our photo.
Also, with 300 or more photos to look at, most people have a hard time trying to view them all and vote and give comments anyway. I know I sure wouldn't want to try to add to that finding time to go read hundreds of little quipets about certain techniques used and why, or individual intrepretations, etc. etc.
Photos should definetely stand on their own IMHO. Keep in mind, you just aren't going to connect with everybody everytime. If you feel strongly enough about explaining something, wait till after the challenge and post it on the forum. I know that is too late to boost a score, but it is not like money is on the line. You should get lots of feedback, and if you're not careful, you might learn something new now and then.
relax, learn, improve, try to enjoy life a little :-)
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05/14/2004 12:06:18 PM · #3 |
Really you entered a photo like that,,, different title and opposites is so obvious, it bite ya in the nose? Yeah me too...
Thats not a bad idea......Mostly newbies will pm me occasionally like on the final day of voting the open challenge....I just pretend I didnt have a clue whose photo it was.... and be glad to have helped someone...
I think its fair if we dont pm during the challenge at all not no way,,,unless site council is DQing, to make sure noone plays favorites, or gives their buds all 10s.....lol sometimes I wonder....just kidding.
Anyways neat idea
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05/14/2004 12:11:18 PM · #4 |
| Seems to me that nshapiro's photo probably is standing on it's own, but her title is distracting voters from just looking at the photo for voting purposes. I also title some of my photos with 'long term, permanent' titles, and it's bitten me in the butt. I wish everyone would appreciate my title, but still vote on the photo as a whole. I like that my title enhances the work, but I don't really want it to take away from my photo for not being too in sync with my photo. So, it's a dilemma really. It appears that most people will vote however they see fit and there's nothing we can do to change it except have the SC send a very large print email out to all members asking them to please read the challenge descriptions more carefully when they vote. This could end up being pretty insulting to some people... so the SC would probably not do that. I don't think we'll be allowed anonymous places to write... it is as it is, as it is been for a while, and as it will probably be for some time. |
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05/14/2004 12:15:38 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by taterbug:
Each challenge has a specific topic, and that is part of the challenge, to convey your take on that topic in a photograph. Otherwise it would be just, everybody submit your favorite photo you've taken this week. If people aren't getting it then either a) maybe you need improvement in that area or b) don't worry about it and just be happy with your work for your own satisfaction. Or, maybe usually you are right on target, and from time to time you tap into a creative edge that maybe doesn't connect with a lot of people.
...snip...
Photos should definetely stand on their own IMHO. Keep in mind, you just aren't going to connect with everybody everytime. If you feel strongly enough about explaining something, wait till after the challenge and post it on the forum. I know that is too late to boost a score, but it is not like money is on the line. You should get lots of feedback, and if you're not careful, you might learn something new now and then.
...snip...
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I understand your points, and I have mixed feelings on the suggestion myself.
Right now, you only get one chance to shine with a critic, and it last about 2 seconds for most critics. That's not the same as a photo not "speaking for itself". Mine is clearly IN YOUR FACE opposite, but it may take more than 1 or 2 seconds to see it, because there are many facets that can be oppposite, and I chose one that more novel. And as I mentioned, my title throws you off even further.
Since you only get one score, and only get a small minority of comments, this degrades the use of the challenges for feedback and learning. It also dissuades creativity and novel approaches to a problem.
While I am happy with my photo and thus it doesn't matter to me if it doesn't finish well, on the other hand, the DPChallenges are tied into the sales promotion portion of the site. Unless I can produce a ribbon, I don't get to take advantage of the DPCPrints promotions. And yet, when the voting is skewed towards something so blatently obvious it can be seen it 1-2 seconds, I don't consider that fine art either.
So in short, I thought that maybe if there was a place to actually discuss the photos during the challenge, without losing the important anonymity feature, we might get more out of it, and perhaps skirt some of the above issues.
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05/14/2004 12:36:18 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by taterbug:
...I certainly would not want to hang something that required a small sign with it so that it could be fully appreciated. After all, it is photography, not creative writing... |
Good creative writing should not require explanation either. The fact that our acedemia produces a hundred dilutions for each each original does little to change this.
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05/14/2004 12:41:39 PM · #7 |
It's not a bad idea, but the problem I see is that we are humans and can feel guilt. Once you start reading what the photographer wanted you to see, based on your low vote or negative critique, you will feel guilty and even if you don't like the photo, you are more likely to bump up the vote if you have made a connection, albeit minor, to the photographer.
So, for best results, the challenges are probably just best left as is. I do think about ideas to get voters to start thinking like professional judges and some of them do, indeed, need training. Anyone can say they like or don't like the photo, but without experience and training... all you should get is a choice of 'like" or "dislike". With good training, you can talk about quality, color, tone, clarity, overall feel, does it meet the challenge, etc. Perhaps a pop up box for the first time you come to vote on that particular challenge, reminding you of the challenge rules (in a shortened form) that the photographer had to take into consideration when taking the photo.
Example pop up box: "Dear Voter, the photographs you are about to see have been taken for the "SOMETHING NEW II" challenge. The photographers were required to take photos of subjects they have never entered before, in places they have never taken photos before. The titles may or may not represent the photographed subject"
Of that, some parts should be in red or bold or something perhaps. Just an idea, a reminder... |
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05/14/2004 12:45:30 PM · #8 |
I certainly see where you are coming from n. I can sympathize with your frustration. I guess we can just try to keep it in perspective, I've looked at stats and there are tens of thousands of people voting on challenges, out of that there are going to be some that just don't get it, or are dense, or totally not taking it serious, or speed voting or whatever. From what I've seen, the people here that do take this to heart all share in that frustration, 'cause on almost any given day there is some forum thread discussing some type of voting issue. :-)
A short while back in a thread there was a senior member of the site addressing such issues, and they crunched the numbers and showed that the oddball votes, high or low, don't really affect the overall average. It pretty much evens out in the end and should represent a pretty fair avg. score.
I think that most of the people here, at least the serious ones, try to be pretty subjective with their voting. I know I look at the title as kind of an "attachment" to a photo. Sometimes they give me a little chuckle. Sometimes I look to the title for a little clarification if I'm not "getting" it. If I'm not getting a photo, or I at first think it doesn't "fit" the challenge, I give it extra time and try to broaden my thoughts and sometimes I'll go...Ahhh, now I get it, clever, interesting, creative, nice take on the challenge, etc., or sometimes,, I see where you're going, but I think maybe you're stretching it, just doesn't work for me, etc. and if scoring really high or really low, I leave a comment explaining why.
In conclusion, God bless the "Trolls", they keep us on our toes!!!
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05/14/2004 12:51:13 PM · #9 |
Well as I've been thinking about it more, I have to say in a more "General" form:
Wouldn't we all learn more if we could discuss the photos while being voted? Sure we could discuss them afterwards, but it seems like old news to me then, and I rarely do.
So if we had an anonymous forum, we could openly discuss them, as they are being voted on, while people are looking. Short of people cheating and trying to give away whose photo is whose (at which point I would be happy to pull the plug on the idea), wouldn't that be more interesting and beneficial than the way it is now?
Edited for grammar.
Message edited by author 2004-05-14 12:52:00. |
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05/14/2004 12:52:33 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by mirdonamy:
It's not a bad idea, but the problem I see is that we are humans and can feel guilt. Once you start reading what the photographer wanted you to see, based on your low vote or negative critique, you will feel guilty and even if you don't like the photo, you are more likely to bump up the vote if you have made a connection, albeit minor, to the photographer.
So, for best results, the challenges are probably just best left as is. I do think about ideas to get voters to start thinking like professional judges and some of them do, indeed, need training. Anyone can say they like or don't like the photo, but without experience and training... all you should get is a choice of 'like" or "dislike". With good training, you can talk about quality, color, tone, clarity, overall feel, does it meet the challenge, etc. Perhaps a pop up box for the first time you come to vote on that particular challenge, reminding you of the challenge rules (in a shortened form) that the photographer had to take into consideration when taking the photo.
Example pop up box: "Dear Voter, the photographs you are about to see have been taken for the "SOMETHING NEW II" challenge. The photographers were required to take photos of subjects they have never entered before, in places they have never taken photos before. The titles may or may not represent the photographed subject"
Of that, some parts should be in red or bold or something perhaps. Just an idea, a reminder... |
Awesome idea! Some of the best, most constructive thinking I've seen anywhere in a while. Not just new people, but even others that are still in the process could use a slight reminder now and then. Great! If SC could do that without big problems, I'm all for it. Hooray!
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05/14/2004 12:57:07 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by nshapiro:
Well as I've been thinking about it more, I have to say in a more "General" form:
Wouldn't we all learn more if we could discuss the photos while being voted? Sure we could discuss them afterwards, but it seems like old news to me then, and I rarely do.
So if we had an anonymous forum, we could openly discuss them, as they are being voted on, while people are looking. Short of people cheating and trying to give away whose photo is whose (at which point I would be happy to pull the plug on the idea), wouldn't that be more interesting and beneficial than the way it is now?
Edited for grammar. |
Good idea. I agree with what you're saying, but I think the problem would be, who is going to standby with plug in hand, ready to pull it when someone crosses the line and get's specific or starts "lobbying" for votes?
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