Australians need gun control! - DPChallenge Forums

Olympus 17mm f/1.8 M.Zuiko

01/26/2014 12:21:21 AM · #76

I looked at your link under "homicides" and thought it was interesting. However, it asks a different question than the one asked by the stats I linked above so the two don't need to be mutually exclusive. I'll let you ponder what that difference is. Your first link makes logical sense, but doesn't present any data and doesn't give me the requested correlation coefficient to determine the strength of the association. Wish not granted. It is also noted that the Harvard Injury Control Research Center is funded by the Joyce Foundation who, according to wiki, "Funds research and advocacy in firearms policy, including supporting anti-gun groups." Here's a link to another Harvard study not supported by Joyce that came up with the opposite conclusion.

I have no real desire to get caught up in this argument. Hell, Cory has been absent for a day and when he returns the wheels will completely fall off.

I leave you with this comic, which pretty well sums up arguments on the interwebs.

Message edited by author 2014-01-26 00:42:39.

ubique

Olympus PEN-F

01/26/2014 01:08:20 AM · #77

All these linked statistics on Australia v's USA miss the essential point, which is that in Australia people who want to own guns for no sensible reason (i.e. people other than cops, farmers, 'sporting' shooters and criminals) are quite sensibly viewed as immature wankers. There' s virtually no infantile gun culture in Australia.

America won't get on top of this problem until they realise that the problem isn't criminals, nor even people with genuine mental illness. The problem is law abiding citizens with guns. They scare the crap out of me. And they are the cause of the statistical differences between the two countries.

pamb

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM II

01/26/2014 01:17:40 AM · #78

Originally posted by ubique:

I knew I liked you.

01/26/2014 01:23:40 AM · #79

Originally posted by ubique:

America won't get on top of this problem until they realise that the problem isn't criminals, nor even people with genuine mental illness. The problem is law abiding citizens with guns. They scare the crap out of me. And they are the cause of the statistical differences between the two countries.

Surely that was just poorly thought out, or incredibly poorly worded.

01/26/2014 01:28:15 AM · #80

Much too tired to really engage here tonight (14 hours of driving is rough on a guy!) - but I think, after reading the above, this has been one of our most productive conversations on the subject to date.

Thanks, I've enjoyed reading the posts, and will dig deeper into the posted articles soon. (maybe..I hope)

scalvert

Olympus 17mm f/1.8 M.Zuiko

01/26/2014 02:13:36 AM · #81

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

the Harvard Injury Control Research Center is funded by the Joyce Foundation who, according to wiki, "Funds research and advocacy in firearms policy, including supporting anti-gun groups." Here's a link to another Harvard study not supported by Joyce that came up with the opposite conclusion.

So you ignore most of the articles, point out that one Harvard study may have been funded by a foundation that includes gun violence prevention (who else would fund such a study with the NRA actively working to block research?), and post a non-peer reviewed "Harvard study" published in a student journal by two actual pro-gun activists who neither attended nor worked for Harvard as a rebuttal? Imagine my surprise. Did you even read the "study?" It's embarrassing.

ubique

Olympus PEN-F

01/26/2014 03:12:39 AM · #82

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by ubique:

America won't get on top of this problem until they realise that the problem isn't criminals, nor even people with genuine mental illness. The problem is law abiding citizens with guns. They scare the crap out of me. And they are the cause of the statistical differences between the two countries.

Surely that was just poorly thought out, or incredibly poorly worded.

No, it wasn't, and no, it wasn't. Expanded response is under consideration.

ubique

Olympus PEN-F

Olympus 17mm f/1.8 M.Zuiko

01/26/2014 03:14:44 AM · #83

Originally posted by pamb:

Originally posted by ubique:
All these linked statistics on Australia v's USA miss the essential point, which is that in Australia people who want to own guns for no sensible reason (i.e. people other than cops, farmers, 'sporting' shooters and criminals) are quite sensibly viewed as immature wankers. There' s virtually no infantile gun culture in Australia.

America won't get on top of this problem until they realise that the problem isn't criminals, nor even people with genuine mental illness. The problem is law abiding citizens with guns. They scare the crap out of me. And they are the cause of the statistical differences between the two countries.

I knew I liked you.

Crikey!

dougi555

Nikon D800

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 28-300mm f3.5-5.6G ED VR

01/26/2014 03:22:23 AM · #84

Originally posted by pamb:

MattO

Nikon D4

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II

01/26/2014 12:21:19 PM · #85

Originally posted by ubique:

The problem is law abiding citizens with guns. They scare the crap out of me. And they are the cause of the statistical differences between the two countries.

I would really like to see an expanded explanation of this.

I'm really surprised that people are surprised that people are against gun control. I'm also really surprised that others are surprised that people are for gun control.

It's a tough balance that I believe no one has the answer for.

I do believe in the right to own guns, I also believe that you should have to pass an evaluation and training in order to legally own one.

My brother committed suicide and used a gun to kill himself. Do I blame the gun? No I don't, had he not used a gun another method would have been found. Had he been evaluated for mental health he wouldn't have been allowed to own a gun. Between alcoholism and drugs the gun was just the easy way out.

Matt

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

01/26/2014 12:45:20 PM · #86

Originally posted by MattO:

My brother committed suicide and used a gun to kill himself. Do I blame the gun? No I don't, had he not used a gun another method would have been found.

First off, I'm sorry for your loss, but most studies of suicide seem to indicate that this really isn't so in a majority of cases, that many if not most suicides are impulsive rather than carefully planned, and that the easy availability of handguns is a major factor in their ability to carry out the act -- it takes a lot more work to drive to a bridge or train station than to grab a pistol out of a drawer ...

DrAchoo

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

01/26/2014 01:13:26 PM · #87

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Let's assume the link is true. (Frankly I don't doubt the possibility although I have no confidence in the strength of the association). How would one possibly address this practically in any manner that would have a chance of meeting constitutional muster?

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

01/26/2014 01:26:55 PM · #88

As we've seen, "constitutional muster" has some flexability to it. At least one of the Supremes (Alito, I think) points out that if you want to be a true constitutional originalist the 2nd Amendment only guarantees you the right to posess a muzzle-loading flintlock rifle or musket, and only with the justification that State Militias (i.e. National Guard) were necessary since there was to be no standing Federal army, and they didn't want the government having to supply the weaponry.

Requirements for registration, training, insurance, legal liability, etc., are all areas where we could do more to ensure that guns are limited to those able to possess and use them responsibly without conflicting with the 2nd, even under the current (distorted IMO) interpretation.

01/26/2014 01:37:58 PM · #89

Originally posted by GeneralE:

I take serious exception with Alito's apparent inability to read.

I don't mind those who cite the 'well regulated' bit, since that does seem relevant, and it's actually written into the document - however, nowhere does it even imply that it only should apply to the technology of the day.

scalvert

Sigma 12-24mm f/4.5-5.6 EX Aspherical DG HSM for Nikon

01/26/2014 02:40:19 PM · #90

Originally posted by Cory:

I don't mind those who cite the 'well regulated' bit, since that does seem relevant, and it's actually written into the document - however, nowhere does it even imply that it only should apply to the technology of the day.

Given that bans on sawed off shotguns and automatic weapons have already been examined and upheld by the Supreme Court, your personal opinion regarding specific wording is moot.

bohemka

Nikon D700

01/26/2014 02:54:28 PM · #91

Cory, do you think there's a gun violence problem in the US?

see

Canon PowerShot S95

01/26/2014 03:06:24 PM · #92

Relevance today, you make up your mind.
Back in the 80's there was a interview with a high ranking officer in the USSR just after the cold war. I can't quote the news source but probably news paper. The following is the gist of the answer given when asked why the USSR refrained from attacking the USA.
It was believed at the time most Americans owned guns, so be successful the USSR believed it would have had to use weapons that would have destroyed the #1 reason for invading in the first place. Our food production specifically wheat. Ultimately that brought the fall of the USSR, they couldn't beat us out our food, so they had to make the adjustments to trade with us. Many of you my age and older will remember our good faith shipment immediately after the announcement of Russia's decision to become a democratic government.

see

Canon PowerShot S95

01/26/2014 03:12:35 PM · #93

To add, USSR thought they could beat the US military, but not a populous of gun toting Americans.

Stagolee

Kodak Easyshare C180

Canon EF 50mm f1.2L

01/26/2014 03:18:36 PM · #94

Originally posted by see:

To add, USSR thought they could beat the US military, but not a populous of gun toting Americans.

I find it hard to believe....surely the logistics of USSR invading the USA would be main reason they refrained!

scalvert

01/26/2014 03:28:14 PM · #95

Originally posted by see:

To add, USSR thought they could beat the US military, but not a populous of gun toting Americans.

If handguns were a more serious threat than thousands of nuclear weapons, then we have an even bigger problem.

DrAchoo

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5

Sigma 12-24mm f/4.5-5.6 EX Aspherical DG HSM for Nikon

01/26/2014 03:29:48 PM · #96

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Requirements for registration, training, insurance, legal liability, etc., are all areas where we could do more to ensure that guns are limited to those able to possess and use them responsibly without conflicting with the 2nd, even under the current (distorted IMO) interpretation.

But, Paul. Seriously. How is registration, training, insurance, or legal liability going to prevent the impulse of grabbing the gun to blow your own head off? We're specifically talking suicide prevention. The conversation started off about gun control because of a mass shooting. I mentioned that the correlation between # of guns and murders is pretty non-existent. You countered that suicides are correlated and inferred that I wasn't being caring. For the sake of the argument I will concede and say, fine, let's assume guns and suicide are linked. I am now asking you how would you stop suicides with some form of gun control that would pass constitutional muster (mainly meaning you cannot BAN them because that will never happen).

Do you get my point? You seem to have hitched yourself to suicide prevention, but I'm not sure what your endgame would be.

see

Canon PowerShot S95

01/26/2014 03:30:19 PM · #97

That's the way I remember the interview, I am currently trying to find to find a internet copy of the article. But this predates the internet.

bohemka

Nikon D700

01/26/2014 03:47:23 PM · #98

Originally posted by see:

To add, USSR thought they could beat the US military, but not a populous of gun toting Americans.

Are you sure this was a general and not the screenwriter of Red Dawn?

David Ey

Nikon D80

Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f2.8D

01/26/2014 03:53:19 PM · #99

Originally posted by bohemka:

Cory, do you think there's a gun violence problem in the US?

I can't answer for Cory, but there is a criminal and drug problem in the US which leads to a lot of people both innocent and criminal getting hurt. I am convinced there would be much more crime if the good citizens were unable to protect their selves. Criminals just knowing there MIGHT be weapons in the hands of their potential 'customers' stops untold crime. I am in favor of EVERY criminal who harms or steals an honest persons stuff suffer consequences for their actions.