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12/29/2013 06:23:52 PM · #76 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by PennyStreet:
You're too quick for me, Cory, but I think you understood me perfectly.. It's an historic fact that military needs to train their personnel to use firearms safely and appropriately. And there are people for whom it is a necessity to kill their own food. Other than that, I don't think ordinary citizens need guns - whether I see them or not.. If you question my intelligence, so be it.
Certainly I am entitled to my opinion that teaching children how to use a gun is unnecessary, if not appalling. |
I don't know if I should question your intelligence or not - but I generally believe you to be a smart person, and I know that you are completely right about being entitled to your opinion. Now, let's see if I can't influence your opinion here a little bit.
What I do know is that by your measure, no private citizen should be armed, as there isn't a citizen in the nation for whom it can't be argued that hunting isn't absolutely necessary. I'm certain I don't agree with that. And given that at least two of the recent shooting rampages were actually done by military personnel, I don't know that this helps your premise much - in fact, in terms of raw numbers, the probability of military personnel carrying out mass shootings is about the same as the probability of teenage males doing so. Essentially they're both top-tier risks statistically speaking. (numbers: 1 million active duty men in the military, 10 million teenage boys)..
What I hope you can understand is that there are certain groups of high-risk people, for whom gun-ownership is a much higher risk than it is for the general population. I don't know that I could ever support any measure that attempts to create a one-size-fits-all solution for the issue. Gun crime isn't a major problem across all demographics, and in fact, much of it is isolated within a small number of demographic groups..
I hope someone has a rational and reasonable proposal as to how we fairly and effectively deal with that reality. I really don't know that I do, but someone must, and fair doesn't mean that everyone is treated the same - that's most certainly not fair, and would fail to take the reality of the situation into account. |
I agree that, generally, gun crimes and most of the associated problems with owning guns are isolated within a small number of demographic groups. But that still doesn't make it ok, IMO.
Question for you... if ordinary citizens were not allowed to buy guns at will, how would that change law enforcement/military personnel's need to carry on the streets? Or wouldn't it?
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12/29/2013 06:39:33 PM · #77 |
Penny,
The real issue here isn't gun ownership. It's the ability to protect yourself if needed from those who the law means nothing too. Illegal ownership/use of guns has been a problem for generations, decades, and all across the world. Not just the US. The military and Police would still have to carry and use guns for enforcement against those who commit violent crimes.
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12/29/2013 06:42:08 PM · #78 |
Originally posted by ubique:
The solution, Cory, is quite simple: the only people who should be forever disqualified from owning guns are the people who want to. And that works no matter where you live. |
How does disarming the sportsmen, hobbyists, collectors and such folks count as a solution? The gangsters, angry youths, etc, sure, but there are plenty of people who wish to own guns that should be allowed to.
Your statement sounds genius, but doesn't really address anything useful.
I'm curious - do you know what percentage of US guns are involved in homicides each year?
In fact 0.004% of guns are used in homicides in the US, and even expanding out to ANY crime with ANY gun involvement (good or bad) the number is still only 0.25% of guns. That means 4 out of every 1000 guns has some tie to a crime, defensive or offensive, and that means that only 1 in 25,000 guns is used in a homicide.
(For perspective, compare this to the 0.015% of cars involved in fatal accidents each year in the US, meaning cars are statistically about 3x more likely to kill someone than a gun)....
Message edited by author 2013-12-29 19:57:32. |
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12/29/2013 06:44:05 PM · #79 |
Originally posted by PennyStreet:
Question for you... if ordinary citizens were not allowed to buy guns at will, how would that change law enforcement/military personnel's need to carry on the streets? Or wouldn't it? |
It wouldn't change anything at all in terms of crime or the tactics used to combat it.
Pandora's box has been opened, you can make guns illegal, but that won't stop the wrong people from owning them.
ETA: As for the military, it is constitutionally prohibited for military troops to take an active role of law enforcement within the US except under declaration of martial law.
Message edited by author 2013-12-29 18:48:06. |
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12/29/2013 06:56:01 PM · #80 |
I have really tried to read all the post in here....(there were too many) I have seen people that say why would you let an 8 year old hunt with a gun... well my niece has been trained in safety 1st off. I took her out just target practice before we went to the stand. She had never fired a weapon like this and I wanted her to know the in and outs of this weapon. For an example..She had never fired a semi auto. So I taught her that the rounds would keep coming. 1 pull of the trigger means 1 round down range. She caught on to that quickly. When we were target practicing she would yell SAFE when she put it on safe...and she would yell GOING HOT when she was putting it on fire.
I had her do everything...she loaded the magazine...she inserted the mag....she charged it...she confirmed it was on safe..... she sited the target....& and she put rounds into the bullseye
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12/29/2013 06:58:00 PM · #81 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by PennyStreet:
Question for you... if ordinary citizens were not allowed to buy guns at will, how would that change law enforcement/military personnel's need to carry on the streets? Or wouldn't it? |
It wouldn't change anything at all in terms of crime or the tactics used to combat it.
Pandora's box has been opened, you can make guns illegal, but that won't stop the wrong people from owning them.
ETA: As for the military, it is constitutionally prohibited for military troops to take an active role of law enforcement within the US except under declaration of martial law. |
Ah martial law......it may be coming at some point in the future
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12/29/2013 06:59:03 PM · #82 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
Ah martial law......it may be coming at some point in the future |
You sound scarily pleased about that Adam... ;D |
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12/29/2013 07:00:32 PM · #83 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
Ah martial law......it may be coming at some point in the future |
You sound scarily pleased about that Adam... ;D |
Nope...but I still think it is coming...I am scared to death about martial law
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12/29/2013 07:02:17 PM · #84 |
You know what is really a shame about this whole thread. It shows a long and passionate discussion can be held on this site. But it rarely happens regarding things related to photography!
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12/29/2013 07:10:40 PM · #85 |
Actually I am surprised that my thread has not been moved to rant. Most things dealing with guns goes to rant
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12/29/2013 07:15:04 PM · #86 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
Actually I am surprised that my thread has not been moved to rant. Most things dealing with guns goes to rant |
That's because no one has called anyone any names. :P
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12/29/2013 07:26:40 PM · #87 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
Actually I am surprised that my thread has not been moved to rant. Most things dealing with guns goes to rant |
That's because no one has called anyone any names. :P |
Well when a subject is as touchy as guns it tends to wind up in rant
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12/29/2013 07:27:48 PM · #88 |
Originally posted by sempermarine:
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Hey thats a good lookin deer
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12/29/2013 07:30:45 PM · #89 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
Originally posted by sempermarine:
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Hey thats a good lookin deer |
I'd shoot it. :D
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12/29/2013 07:44:50 PM · #90 |
Originally posted by MattO:
You know what is really a shame about this whole thread. It shows a long and passionate discussion can be held on this site. But it rarely happens regarding things related to photography! |
There's nothing deeply controversial about photography itself....
We usually have those arguments under the heading of "What is art?".. |
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12/29/2013 07:49:21 PM · #91 |
| And the what is art threads seem to be just as polarizing. |
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12/29/2013 08:54:03 PM · #92 |
Originally posted by SEG:
Stop driving so you don't kill deer, squirrel, possums ... etc that run in front of "YOUR" road ... |
Good idea ... :-)
Tilden Regional Park
Originally posted by Park Website:
Notices
South Park Drive is closed to automobile traffic from November 1, 2013 to April 1, 2014 to protect migrating and breeding newts. Note that bicycles are allowed, although bicyclists are asked to proceed slowly and avoid newts crossing the road. Also note that dogs are required to be on leash on South Park Drive during the five months̢۪ closure. |
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12/29/2013 09:21:47 PM · #93 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
I have really tried to read all the post in here....(there were too many) I have seen people that say why would you let an 8 year old hunt with a gun... well my niece has been trained in safety 1st off. I took her out just target practice before we went to the stand. She had never fired a weapon like this and I wanted her to know the in and outs of this weapon. For an example..She had never fired a semi auto. So I taught her that the rounds would keep coming. 1 pull of the trigger means 1 round down range. She caught on to that quickly. When we were target practicing she would yell SAFE when she put it on safe...and she would yell GOING HOT when she was putting it on fire.
I had her do everything...she loaded the magazine...she inserted the mag....she charged it...she confirmed it was on safe..... she sited the target....& and she put rounds into the bullseye |
I didn't get the sense you were "baiting" us with this -- though you might have anticipated that it could be perceived that way. In any case, I think I avoided the bait ...
FWIW I don't think any of the activities you carried out are related to the "glorification" of either guns or violence. I don't think there is/can be any arbtrary cutoff age at which someone is too young to learn to safely handle firearms -- certainly there are mature 8-year olds I'd rather see in that situation than some goofball 28-year olds I've known.
When I was around her age I could follow a recipe and make something come out right ...I think helping a kid that age to carry out tasks of that sophistication and complexity is something you can be proud of, regardless of the nature of the specific "task" ... |
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12/29/2013 09:22:59 PM · #94 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by SEG:
Stop driving so you don't kill deer, squirrel, possums ... etc that run in front of "YOUR" road ... |
Good idea ... :-)
Tilden Regional Park
Originally posted by Park Website:
Notices
South Park Drive is closed to automobile traffic from November 1, 2013 to April 1, 2014 to protect migrating and breeding newts. Note that bicycles are allowed, although bicyclists are asked to proceed slowly and avoid newts crossing the road. Also note that dogs are required to be on leash on South Park Drive during the five months̢۪ closure. |
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LOL you pick one park that sets rules. Shut down an interstate to do this. Shut down commerce. It won't happen. A park is concerned with nature, commerce is not. I'm not trying to say we should shut down interstates. That's ridiculous. Just trying to point out that going after the smaller groups is easier so more people gravitate to them when they want to get something out of their agenda.
I also noticed how you pulled one small snippet from an entire quote to help get your point across....just like the media does when they want to get there terror across when a shooting occurs turning a blind I to the larger point.
Message edited by author 2013-12-29 21:26:10. |
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12/29/2013 09:24:19 PM · #95 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
When I was around her age I could follow a recipe and make something come out right ...I think helping a kid that age to carry out tasks of that sophistication and complexity is something you can be proud of, regardless of the nature of the specific "task" ... |
Well put |
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12/29/2013 10:34:34 PM · #96 |
Time for another photo break....
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12/29/2013 11:06:59 PM · #97 |
Originally posted by sempermarine:
Time for another photo break....
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Hey, that's a good looking deer too! |
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12/29/2013 11:19:23 PM · #98 |
Originally posted by SEG:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by SEG:
Stop driving so you don't kill deer, squirrel, possums ... etc that run in front of "YOUR" road ... |
Good idea ... :-)
Tilden Regional Park
Originally posted by Park Website:
Notices
South Park Drive is closed to automobile traffic from November 1, 2013 to April 1, 2014 to protect migrating and breeding newts. Note that bicycles are allowed, although bicyclists are asked to proceed slowly and avoid newts crossing the road. Also note that dogs are required to be on leash on South Park Drive during the five months̢۪ closure. |
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LOL you pick one park that sets rules. Shut down an interstate to do this. Shut down commerce. It won't happen. A park is concerned with nature, commerce is not. I'm not trying to say we should shut down interstates. That's ridiculous. Just trying to point out that going after the smaller groups is easier so more people gravitate to them when they want to get something out of their agenda.
I also noticed how you pulled one small snippet from an entire quote to help get your point across....just like the media does when they want to get there terror across when a shooting occurs turning a blind I to the larger point. |
Out here on Cape Cod we have miles and miles of beaches that are our major attraction and revenue generator. The whole region runs year-round on its summer income. On the Atlantic side these beaches host surf fisherman and campers in motorized vehicles who by permits and so forth. On both sides, masses of people descend on the beaches every day. And there's a defenseless, dumb little bird called a Piping Plover that just sticks its nest down any which place, in the open above the tideline. It's "endangered". So in "nesting season", which is prime beachgoing season, large areas of the beaches are closed to beachgoers until the chicks fledge and can fly.
We have seals, "protected" under the Marine Mammal Act, taking over entire beaches. You're not allowed within 500 feet of them. Out in California it's worse; the seals colonize whole areas of docks, rendering them useless to their owners and the populace, and nothing can be done about it. The burgeoning seal population is attracting an ever-more-active population of Great White Sharks, leading to more-and-more frequent beach closures. And the sharks are protected tooo.
And so forth and so on. Don't try to tell us that protection is the anomaly, because it no longer is. |
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12/29/2013 11:41:30 PM · #99 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
I have really tried to read all the post in here....(there were too many) I have seen people that say why would you let an 8 year old hunt with a gun... well my niece has been trained in safety 1st off. I took her out just target practice before we went to the stand. She had never fired a weapon like this and I wanted her to know the in and outs of this weapon. For an example..She had never fired a semi auto. So I taught her that the rounds would keep coming. 1 pull of the trigger means 1 round down range. She caught on to that quickly. When we were target practicing she would yell SAFE when she put it on safe...and she would yell GOING HOT when she was putting it on fire.
I had her do everything...she loaded the magazine...she inserted the mag....she charged it...she confirmed it was on safe..... she sited the target....& and she put rounds into the bullseye |
I didn't get the sense you were "baiting" us with this -- though you might have anticipated that it could be perceived that way. In any case, I think I avoided the bait ...
FWIW I don't think any of the activities you carried out are related to the "glorification" of either guns or violence. I don't think there is/can be any arbtrary cutoff age at which someone is too young to learn to safely handle firearms -- certainly there are mature 8-year olds I'd rather see in that situation than some goofball 28-year olds I've known.
When I was around her age I could follow a recipe and make something come out right ...I think helping a kid that age to carry out tasks of that sophistication and complexity is something you can be proud of, regardless of the nature of the specific "task" ... |
I appreciate that
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12/30/2013 01:24:51 AM · #100 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
I have really tried to read all the post in here....(there were too many) I have seen people that say why would you let an 8 year old hunt with a gun... well my niece has been trained in safety 1st off. I took her out just target practice before we went to the stand. She had never fired a weapon like this and I wanted her to know the in and outs of this weapon. For an example..She had never fired a semi auto. So I taught her that the rounds would keep coming. 1 pull of the trigger means 1 round down range. She caught on to that quickly. When we were target practicing she would yell SAFE when she put it on safe...and she would yell GOING HOT when she was putting it on fire.
I had her do everything...she loaded the magazine...she inserted the mag....she charged it...she confirmed it was on safe..... she sited the target....& and she put rounds into the bullseye |
I didn't get the sense you were "baiting" us with this -- though you might have anticipated that it could be perceived that way. In any case, I think I avoided the bait ...
FWIW I don't think any of the activities you carried out are related to the "glorification" of either guns or violence. I don't think there is/can be any arbtrary cutoff age at which someone is too young to learn to safely handle firearms -- certainly there are mature 8-year olds I'd rather see in that situation than some goofball 28-year olds I've known.
When I was around her age I could follow a recipe and make something come out right ...I think helping a kid that age to carry out tasks of that sophistication and complexity is something you can be proud of, regardless of the nature of the specific "task" ... |
When I was about this age, I could cook complete recipes that my mom and grandma had taught me. Following them from start to finish on my own, as well as cleaning the kitchen and doing laundry. I also could safely handle a shotgun and hunt, that my dad had taught me. Today I chose not to hunt for my food, rather buy it from the store, although if needed I could do so to provide for my family. I also am a legal gun owner who has a Conceal Carry permit and do on occasion carry a handgun. My son also has a good respect for handguns and shotguns. And actually owns more guns than I do, although because of his disease can no longer handle them on his own.
Matt |
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