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12/29/2013 11:22:33 AM · #26 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by SEG:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
While you are at it... teach her how to shoot with a camera also...that way she can get more than one shot at it. :O)
Ray |
+1 to this. This way you can utilize the stand year round.
And whats with all the Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm? Is it the guns or shooting animals for food? This intrigues me. |
It's DPC's normal attitude towards guns and gun ownership... The majority of our group here responds to guns about like I'd respond to hearing that someone sent their child to 'Jesus Camp'... For whatever reason, they choose to not come out and directly say what they think, instead apparently choosing a subtle and ambiguous disapproval.
Although, it's not terribly surprising that our mainly suburban and artistic community would lean that way. |
I am certain that this comment was not addressed at me since most here fully realize that I have never had a problem expressing my views regardless of the topic.
If I honestly thought that gun ownership and gun use was a horrendous activity, I would come right out and tell people so.
Ray |
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12/29/2013 11:22:48 AM · #27 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by SEG:
Originally posted by Kelli:
I'm not anti-gun. I'm not anti-hunting for food (though I am anti-hunting for sport). But I am anti-gun-exposure to children. They don't have the emotional maturity for hunting/killing. Only my opinion. |
I see your point. When my buddy takes his kid out we are with him every second to monitor and teach. When we get home the guns are locked in a safe. We also explain why they are locked up and how dangerous they could be.
Responsible gun ownership is possible and showing a child the joy of the outdoors with a firearm is possible as well. I agree it could be tragic when a parent does not follow these simple rules. |
As a kid who grew up hunting, let me tell ya, there's nothing that sets a kid straight about the power of a gun better than a visual and visceral demonstration of the effects of high-speed lead upon flesh and bone. You can tell a kid shit all day long, but once they're staring at a real demonstration of the effects, there's no doubt at that point that the kid 'gets it'... |
And you either like killing or you don't. My husbands first experience hunting with his father goes like this. They went out for "small game". My husband (who was a child at the time) shot a rabbit. He said it was bleeding out of it's eye and half it's face was gone. He went to shoot it again to put it out of it's pain, he said it was making a horrible sound. His father put his hand on the gun and forced it down then promptly stomped on the rabbits head to kill it. My husband proceeded to throw up in the bushes. One and only hunting trip.
My point about the small kids hunting is that they either get the taste for the kill, then go on to lack empathy towards animals their whole lives or they hate it and become animal lovers. Also just my opinion, but one that I've seen evidence of my whole life. |
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12/29/2013 11:23:23 AM · #28 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
I am certain that this comment was not addressed at me since most here fully realize that I have never had a problem expressing my views regardless of the topic.
If I honestly thought that gun ownership and gun use was a horrendous activity, I would come right out and tell people so.
Ray |
Nope, not directed at you in the least. :D |
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12/29/2013 11:24:34 AM · #29 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
And you either like killing or you don't. My husbands first experience hunting with his father goes like this. They went out for "small game". My husband (who was a child at the time) shot a rabbit. He said it was bleeding out of it's eye and half it's face was gone. He went to shoot it again to put it out of it's pain, he said it was making a horrible sound. His father put his hand on the gun and forced it down then promptly stomped on the rabbits head to kill it. My husband proceeded to throw up in the bushes. One and only hunting trip.
My point about the small kids hunting is that they either get the taste for the kill, then go on to lack empathy towards animals their whole lives or they hate it and become animal lovers. Also just my opinion, but one that I've seen evidence of my whole life. |
Strange that you think this to be true. So you think that I'm just a cold blooded guy who has no empathy towards animals?
No offense, but that's just hugely ignorant.
It's the responsibility of a hunter to know how to kill an animal without making it suffer, it sounds to me as though your husband needed a bit more practice on paper targets first. I've never enjoyed hurting any animal..
And - as a further point - if you eat commercial meats, you're actually responsible for a great deal more suffering and animal abuse than any hunter is, you're just offloading the dirty deeds onto someone else.
Message edited by author 2013-12-29 11:28:53. |
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12/29/2013 11:29:37 AM · #30 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by Kelli:
And you either like killing or you don't. My husbands first experience hunting with his father goes like this. They went out for "small game". My husband (who was a child at the time) shot a rabbit. He said it was bleeding out of it's eye and half it's face was gone. He went to shoot it again to put it out of it's pain, he said it was making a horrible sound. His father put his hand on the gun and forced it down then promptly stomped on the rabbits head to kill it. My husband proceeded to throw up in the bushes. One and only hunting trip.
My point about the small kids hunting is that they either get the taste for the kill, then go on to lack empathy towards animals their whole lives or they hate it and become animal lovers. Also just my opinion, but one that I've seen evidence of my whole life. |
Strange that you think this to be true. So you think that I'm just a cold blooded guy who has no empathy towards animals?
No offense, but that's just hugely ignorant. |
You personally? Nope. I don't know you. But I did say it's only my opinion, and one that I've formed based on my personal experience with the people that I personally know hunt. When you look at a beautiful animal and your only thought is how best to blow it away, well...
As you said, with the artistic crowd, things tend to be a bit different. |
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12/29/2013 11:31:09 AM · #31 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
When you look at a beautiful animal and your only thought is how best to blow it away, well...
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I'm comfortable enough with that portion that it's more reflex than thought... I usually skip right to thinking what sauce would be best with it. ;) |
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12/29/2013 11:36:21 AM · #32 |
Kelli, the problem with your view is you think that it is all black and white. You hunt therefore you are cold or incapable of emotion towards animals.
Originally posted by kelli:
When you look at a beautiful animal and your only thought is how best to blow it away, well... |
This line upsets me when I hear it. I take pictures of animals, have 4 different household pets, watch squirrels, rabbits, raccoon's, hogs, birds, ...etc from my deer stand and revel in the joy of being in the outdoors. Yes, I will shoot a deer that will put meat on my table but I have also watched many deer walk away. For example, a mother and her fawn (didn't want to take the mother from it's child), a buck that has less than 4 points on its horns (to help further populate the region).
Their is not a hunter that I know or associate with that does not follow these same rules and state laws.
Message edited by author 2013-12-29 11:38:22. |
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12/29/2013 11:43:23 AM · #33 |
Originally posted by SEG:
Kelli, the problem with your view is you think that it is all black and white. You hunt therefore you are cold or incapable of emotion towards animals.
Originally posted by kelli:
When you look at a beautiful animal and your only thought is how best to blow it away, well... |
This line upsets me when I hear it. I take pictures of animals, have 4 different household pets, watch squirrels, rabbits, raccoon's, hogs, birds, ...etc from my deer stand and revel in the joy of being in the outdoors. Yes, I will shoot a deer that will put meat on my table but I have also watched many deer walk away. For example, a mother and her fawn (didn't want to take the mother from it's child), a buck that has less than 4 points on its horns (to help further populate the region).
Their is not a hunter that I know are associate with that does not follow these same rules and state laws. |
You are one person. And an artistic one, so you see the beauty in things. My step father isn't. He took my pet rabbits to a farm to be butchered and ate them. Also my pet chickens. The only non edible pet I was ever allowed to have as a child was a cat. Which had a litter of kittens which he then promptly drowned. Sorry, but peoples opinions are formed by their life experiences and those are the type of experiences I had. When I was 7 years old, I went down to my basement to get laundry out of the dryer. There was a deer hanging from the rafter with it's throat cut and blood flowing into a bucket. When I came up screaming he laughed and told me he shot Rudolph. |
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12/29/2013 11:50:01 AM · #34 |
| I'm sorry to hear that Kelli. That sounds traumatic and awful. |
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12/29/2013 11:50:19 AM · #35 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by Kelli:
And you either like killing or you don't. My husbands first experience hunting with his father goes like this. They went out for "small game". My husband (who was a child at the time) shot a rabbit. He said it was bleeding out of it's eye and half it's face was gone. He went to shoot it again to put it out of it's pain, he said it was making a horrible sound. His father put his hand on the gun and forced it down then promptly stomped on the rabbits head to kill it. My husband proceeded to throw up in the bushes. One and only hunting trip.
My point about the small kids hunting is that they either get the taste for the kill, then go on to lack empathy towards animals their whole lives or they hate it and become animal lovers. Also just my opinion, but one that I've seen evidence of my whole life. |
Strange that you think this to be true. So you think that I'm just a cold blooded guy who has no empathy towards animals?
No offense, but that's just hugely ignorant.
It's the responsibility of a hunter to know how to kill an animal without making it suffer, it sounds to me as though your husband needed a bit more practice on paper targets first. I've never enjoyed hurting any animal..
And - as a further point - if you eat commercial meats, you're actually responsible for a great deal more suffering and animal abuse than any hunter is, you're just offloading the dirty deeds onto someone else. |
And we have a winner.
BTW, the best conservationists in the world are hunters. The vast majority of hunters are extremely conscience of and respectful of the animals they hunt. Hunting is necessary to control the population of the herds. Shoot deer and elk now or they starve and suffer in the winter, that is fact.
I live in Colorado and hunting is I need of the most important aspects of our local culture. The hunting regulations are strict and are held in high regards because everything about them is meant to do what is best for the animal population as a whole.
Hunters, fishermen, and outdoorsmen are the true environmental stewards of this nation. |
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12/29/2013 11:51:18 AM · #36 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
You are one person. And an artistic one, so you see the beauty in things. My step father isn't. He took my pet rabbits to a farm to be butchered and ate them. Also my pet chickens. The only non edible pet I was ever allowed to have as a child was a cat. Which had a litter of kittens which he then promptly drowned. Sorry, but peoples opinions are formed by their life experiences and those are the type of experiences I had. When I was 7 years old, I went down to my basement to get laundry out of the dryer. There was a deer hanging from the rafter with it's throat cut and blood flowing into a bucket. When I came up screaming he laughed and told me he shot Rudolph. |
Ok, so basically your step-father was a psychopath and since he enjoyed brutally killing animals and enjoyed hurting and disturbing you even more, you therefore assume that all people who kill animals must be like him.
Kelli, that's just simply not fair or accurate - it would be no different than me saying horribly misogynistic things about all women because my mother is a violent abusive psychopath. I realized long ago that not all women are like my mother, and you need to please realize that not all hunters are like your step-father..
Message edited by author 2013-12-29 11:59:22. |
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12/29/2013 11:54:38 AM · #37 |
Originally posted by chazoe:
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by Kelli:
And you either like killing or you don't. My husbands first experience hunting with his father goes like this. They went out for "small game". My husband (who was a child at the time) shot a rabbit. He said it was bleeding out of it's eye and half it's face was gone. He went to shoot it again to put it out of it's pain, he said it was making a horrible sound. His father put his hand on the gun and forced it down then promptly stomped on the rabbits head to kill it. My husband proceeded to throw up in the bushes. One and only hunting trip.
My point about the small kids hunting is that they either get the taste for the kill, then go on to lack empathy towards animals their whole lives or they hate it and become animal lovers. Also just my opinion, but one that I've seen evidence of my whole life. |
Strange that you think this to be true. So you think that I'm just a cold blooded guy who has no empathy towards animals?
No offense, but that's just hugely ignorant.
It's the responsibility of a hunter to know how to kill an animal without making it suffer, it sounds to me as though your husband needed a bit more practice on paper targets first. I've never enjoyed hurting any animal..
And - as a further point - if you eat commercial meats, you're actually responsible for a great deal more suffering and animal abuse than any hunter is, you're just offloading the dirty deeds onto someone else. |
And we have a winner.
BTW, the best conservationists in the world are hunters. The vast majority of hunters are extremely conscience of and respectful of the animals they hunt. Hunting is necessary to control the population of the herds. Shoot deer and elk now or they starve and suffer in the winter, that is fact.
I live in Colorado and hunting is I need of the most important aspects of our local culture. The hunting regulations are strict and are held in high regards because everything about them is meant to do what is best for the animal population as a whole.
Hunters, fishermen, and outdoorsmen are the true environmental stewards of this nation. |
Certain populations do now need to be controlled by hunting. Others have been decimated by hunting. Over fishing has wiped out whole areas of bays and sections of oceans. The Chesapeake Bay in Maryland is one I have personal experience with.
And not everyone plays by the rules. I know this to be fact. That deer I mentioned in the basement was out of season which is why it was there in the first place. |
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12/29/2013 11:56:44 AM · #38 |
| Overfishing is a commercial fisheries problem not a guy with a lews and a rapala issue. |
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12/29/2013 11:58:03 AM · #39 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
Certain populations do now need to be controlled by hunting. Others have been decimated by hunting. Over fishing has wiped out whole areas of bays and sections of oceans. The Chesapeake Bay in Maryland is one I have personal experience with.
And not everyone plays by the rules. I know this to be fact. That deer I mentioned in the basement was out of season which is why it was there in the first place. |
I'm not sure, outside of Africa, what animal populations you're talking about being decimated by hunting. (and in Africa it's 'poaching' that is the trouble, not hunting)..
As for the overfishing, you're absolutely right, but that's not weekend fishermen, it's giant commercial fishing fleets. And that has nothing to do with hunting or fishing as we're talking about it here.
Clearly, your beef here isn't with hunters or fishers, or anything of that sort - it's with those who have no respect, like your step-father - and I'm with you on that point, sounds to me as though he should have been in prison for animal abuse.
Message edited by author 2013-12-29 11:59:04. |
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12/29/2013 12:11:55 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by chazoe:
... Shoot deer and elk now or they starve and suffer in the winter, that is fact... |
I would not want to rain on your parade, but while this may be a fact today, one could argue that environmental factors, natural predators and a bevy of other factors might also play a significant part in this equation.
In these here parts, loaded cars probably kill more deer than anything else, but I am reluctant to state this as a fact. :O)
Ray
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12/29/2013 12:23:39 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by chazoe:
... Shoot deer and elk now or they starve and suffer in the winter, that is fact... |
I would not want to rain on your parade, but while this may be a fact today, one could argue that environmental factors, natural predators and a bevy of other factors might also play a significant part in this equation.
In these here parts, loaded cars probably kill more deer than anything else, but I am reluctant to state this as a fact. :O)
Ray |
Cars don't kill deer, idiot drivers do! ;) heheh |
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12/29/2013 12:41:14 PM · #42 |
| I think it's funny how there is never a shortage of folks telling other folks how to live. I believe if someones freedoms don't effect anyone else's freedoms, leave them alone! |
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12/29/2013 12:45:40 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by Cory:
I'm not sure, outside of Africa, what animal populations you're talking about being decimated by hunting. |
Wolves, grizzly bears, sea otters, passenger pigeons. Condors and bald eagles as a side effect of hunting (lead poisoning from eating remains left by hunters). |
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12/29/2013 12:53:48 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by see:
I think it's funny how there is never a shortage of folks telling other folks how to live. I believe if someones freedoms don't effect anyone else's freedoms, leave them alone! |
...and where in this discussion did you see that. Differing opinions are not to be confused with telling others how to live.
While we are on the subject, what are your views relative to gay marriages, abortion, separation of church and state... just a broad for or against would suffice.
Don't mind me, I just love stirring the pot once in a while. :O)
Ray
Message edited by author 2013-12-29 12:57:24. |
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12/29/2013 12:56:30 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Cory:
I'm not sure, outside of Africa, what animal populations you're talking about being decimated by hunting. |
Wolves, grizzly bears, sea otters, passenger pigeons. Condors and bald eagles as a side effect of hunting (lead poisoning from eating remains left by hunters). |
I'm sorry, I wasn't clear there. I mean, we can include dodo birds and giant sloths if you'd like as well...
I was talking about modern animal populations being decimated.. We're taking steps to reintroduce wolves (which the ranchers are still screaming about), sea otters have reestablished themselves in about 2/3rds of their historical range (and their problems today are from many things, but hunting isn't one of them) and we've outlawed lead shot for hunting waterfowl (which was the major source of the lead poisoning you mention.)...
Now, also note that the wolves were killed by ranchers who wanted to make them go extinct due to perceived competition of interest (which was ultimately untrue as it works out), sea otters were hunted commercially for their furs (commercial hunting is bad, as is commercial fishing - and we're NOT talking about those here), Grizzlies are a complex issues that we can't really deal with in this conversation, but it's safe to say that hunting is at worst only a small part of their problem, and what little problem it does present is due to 'trophy' hunting, not responsible hunting practices..
Now, are we clear on my meaning? That modern hunting by individuals who respect the law and aren't assholes or poachers has basically no detrimental effect on animal species, and is often structured to be beneficial to these animal populations. Surely you can agree with that?
Message edited by author 2013-12-29 12:58:43. |
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12/29/2013 01:11:03 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by see:
I think it's funny how there is never a shortage of folks telling other folks how to live. I believe if someones freedoms don't effect anyone else's freedoms, leave them alone! |
...and where in this discussion did you see that. Differing opinions are not to be confused with telling others how to live.
While we are on the subject, what are your views relative to gay marriages, abortion, separation of church and state... just a broad for or against would suffice.
Ray |
Gay marriage; How can it possibly effect me?
Abortion: I believe a woman has to make that decision.
Church: no offence but I don't believe in a grand wizard, I also believe this group is responsible for removing free from freedom. |
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12/29/2013 01:20:31 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by Kelli:
Certain populations do now need to be controlled by hunting. Others have been decimated by hunting. Over fishing has wiped out whole areas of bays and sections of oceans. The Chesapeake Bay in Maryland is one I have personal experience with.
And not everyone plays by the rules. I know this to be fact. That deer I mentioned in the basement was out of season which is why it was there in the first place. |
I'm not sure, outside of Africa, what animal populations you're talking about being decimated by hunting. (and in Africa it's 'poaching' that is the trouble, not hunting)..
As for the overfishing, you're absolutely right, but that's not weekend fishermen, it's giant commercial fishing fleets. And that has nothing to do with hunting or fishing as we're talking about it here.
Clearly, your beef here isn't with hunters or fishers, or anything of that sort - it's with those who have no respect, like your step-father - and I'm with you on that point, sounds to me as though he should have been in prison for animal abuse. |
Yes, you're right. I do have a beef with those that have no respect. But as far as hunters go, my step father was not my only example. And while he never ended up in prison, he did end up dead. So there's that. Anyway, like I said, I'm not anti-hunting. It's needed in my state to control the deer population as man is now the only predator. But I have a beef with the hunter who shoots just to kill and leaves it laying there, or doesn't eat it. And yes, I know plenty that do just that. Kill it, take a picture of it, then leave it there. I guess the vulture do need to eat too, but there's plenty of roadkill for that. |
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12/29/2013 01:26:31 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by Cory:
... modern hunting by individuals who respect the law and aren't assholes or poachers has basically no detrimental effect on animal species, and is often structured to be beneficial to these animal populations. Surely you can agree with that? |
I think we can.
Note that the "wipe out the predator species" attitude has much the same effect you describe as outlawing hunting would ... when the wolves were gone from Yellowstone the elk over-populated, so when facing starvation they had to eat the sapling trees, basically changing the overall environment from forest to grassland.
BTW I deliberately left out the dodo and moa, but I consider the examples I cited as being "modern" -- the 20th Century isn't that long ago -- and I left out one of the most egregious examples of irresponsible hunting (American bison or "buffalo"). |
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12/29/2013 01:29:24 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Cory:
... modern hunting by individuals who respect the law and aren't assholes or poachers has basically no detrimental effect on animal species, and is often structured to be beneficial to these animal populations. Surely you can agree with that? |
I think we can.
Note that the "wipe out the predator species" attitude has much the same effect you describe as outlawing hunting would ... when the wolves were gone from Yellowstone the elk over-populated, so when facing starvation they had to eat the sapling trees, basically changing the overall environment from forest to grassland.
BTW I deliberately left out the dodo and moa, but I consider the examples I cited as being "modern" -- the 20th Century isn't that long ago -- and I left out one of the most egregious examples of irresponsible hunting (American bison or "buffalo"). |
They are currently trying to get grey wolves delisted so they can start killing them again. |
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12/29/2013 01:47:18 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Cory:
I'm not sure, outside of Africa, what animal populations you're talking about being decimated by hunting. |
Wolves, grizzly bears, sea otters, passenger pigeons. Condors and bald eagles as a side effect of hunting (lead poisoning from eating remains left by hunters). |
It's easy to throw around endangered and eradicated species that you feel one group is responsible for because you don't agree with hunting or guns but what about your vehicle running over innocent woodland creatures or urban sprawl. When it's on a large scale and it infringes on your creature comforts it's different but when you can pick on a small group it's "easier" isn't it? More deer or killed by
Stop driving so you don't kill deer, squirrel, possums ... etc that run in front of "YOUR" road or living in houses too big for a family just because you have the money to do so which cuts down more and more trees for construction and urban sprawl. Not pointing this at you directly but your comment points in that direction. |
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