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08/13/2013 01:04:36 PM · #101 |
Originally posted by Cory:
So, legally walking around, while legally armed, is provoking the use of resources? Really? The guy did nothing illegal, and you want to bill him for an unnecessary, unreasonable, and overzealous police response?
Wow, please, please, please, never go into politics. |
i think filming and posting the video online proves his intent but that just common sense Mike talking, i realize the rest or the world doesn't share my viewpoint. |
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08/13/2013 01:05:55 PM · #102 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Wow, please, please, please, never go into politics. |
dont worry, as i stated earlier i prefer not to be an a-hole. |
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08/13/2013 01:07:13 PM · #103 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by Mike:
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by bohemka:
Originally posted by Spork99:
The whole point of the video is to illustrate how the cops use bullying tactics to intimidate people into giving up their rights. You may think that you have nothing to hide, but your innocence may be called into question by something discovered during a search you consented to, but the police had no right to otherwise conduct. You think that the police are having a "friendly chat", they aren't, they're looking for ANY kind of opening, regardless of how it relates to whatever they're investigating, that will let them dig into your life fishing for more dirt. Remember Richard Jewell? His life was completely F'ed by the cops. Everyday, you read about people getting released who were wrongfully convicted on the flimsiest of circumstantial evidence and have had their lives ruined, in some cases spending decades in jail. Don't help the cops make you that guy.
Even the cops will tell you "Never Talk To the Police" |
I guess there's a difference between what the "point of the video" is and what a rational person might learn from watching the video: Some folks are so hell-bent on proving their rights through obnoxious methods that they completely lose the plot, pick idiotic battles to fight, and end up wasting not only their own time but the time and resources of civil servants, paid for by the rest of us.
There isn't much difference between what this guy is doing and a school child that holds his finger an inch from your face, proclaiming "I'm not touching you." He should be embarrassed.
In Germany there are serious fines for wasting public resources like this, and if it were in my community I'd join a civil suit to get this schmuck to pay back all the tax dollars spent on helicopter fuel. |
So, you'd support not only the over-response, but you'd bill the victim too?
That's an awesome revenue model - almost as good as Schlake's new trick of poking me with his camera, since I agreed to pay a dollar each time I touch it.. |
this guy isn't a victim, he is intentionally provoking the use of resources. |
So, legally walking around, while legally armed, is provoking the use of resources? Really? The guy did nothing illegal, and you want to bill him for an unnecessary, unreasonable, and overzealous police response?
Wow, please, please, please, never go into politics. |
People complain all day long about others sitting back and relying on public services, but this guy's a hero because he purposefully went out and wasted public resources. |
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08/13/2013 01:08:38 PM · #104 |
Originally posted by Mike:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Don't you think the people who HAVE been railroaded by the police were just like you? They wanted to help, they wanted to cooperate and they wound up in prison. Some reward, huh? As long as it doesn't happen to you, it's OK? |
if by the small chance it happens, so be it. i'm not going to start acting like an a-hole because i might end up in jail.
i just find it really hard to believe that someone could get thrown in jail for no reason at all and because they "cooperated" there is almost always an underlying cause. |
Oh, you're totally right, there isn't 'no reason at all', and there is an underlying cause. Performance metrics, and the ability of the police to be mistaken.
Yes or No - Have you watched the "Never talk to the police" video? How'd you do on that quiz at the beginning? |
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08/13/2013 01:09:26 PM · #105 |
Originally posted by bohemka:
People complain all day long about others sitting back and relying on public services, but this guy's a hero because he purposefully went out and wasted public resources. |
Perhaps you know something I don't. I wasn't aware of his intentions, and am curious what your authority on the matter is? |
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08/13/2013 01:11:47 PM · #106 |
Originally posted by Cory:
So, legally walking around, while legally armed, is provoking the use of resources? Really? The guy did nothing illegal, and you want to bill him for an unnecessary, unreasonable, and overzealous police response? |
If you arrived home at 3am sometime, and saw a guy with a gun walking down the street or standing around, perhaps taking photos of the houses, would you just completely ignore him because he's "doing nothing illegal" or would you approach the situation with a heightened sense of awareness and alert to the possibility of trouble?
Please, an honest gut-level, not ideological, answer ...
Breaking news: "Wild Bill" Hickcok's revolver (the one he had when he was murdered) is coming up for aution in November -- get your bids in early! |
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08/13/2013 01:17:13 PM · #107 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Cory:
So, legally walking around, while legally armed, is provoking the use of resources? Really? The guy did nothing illegal, and you want to bill him for an unnecessary, unreasonable, and overzealous police response? |
If you arrived home at 3am sometime, and saw a guy with a gun walking down the street or standing around, perhaps taking photos of the houses, would you just completely ignore him because he's "doing nothing illegal" or would you approach the situation with a heightened sense of awareness and alert to the possibility of trouble?
Please, an honest gut-level, not ideological, answer ...
Breaking news: "Wild Bill" Hickcok's revolver (the one he had when he was murdered) is coming up for aution in November -- get your bids in early! |
Honest answer - it totally depends on what he looks like. Yep, that's fucked up - but if he looks like trouble, or is acting shady, you can bet that I'd go all Zimmerman on his ass and start following him while calling 911 for a response. Of course, I'd do this whether he was armed or not... A guy with a gun on his hip causes me no concern, in fact, I find it reassuring, given that it's clear he's not carrying a concealed weapon - a pretty good indicator that he's not up to much of anything in the first place - any criminal with sense wouldn't openly display a firearm. (*not that criminals all have any reasonable level of sensibility)
And I never objected to them engaging with him. I objected to the half-dozen cars and the helicopter. Two cruisers really should have been sufficient. Do remember, you're paying for those resources.
I don't the the police were wrong to respond, and I don't think he was wrong to refuse to answer.
>..
Now, realistically, telling the police your name really won't be able to be used against you, unless they're bad cops, much like those that I posted the video of early from Utah, who may attempt to use your information to later 'get even' with you. I found them taking down his personal vehicle information pretty nefarious, considering that he was driving a rented car.
I think the basic question here comes down to "do you trust the police" - and I, with all due respect, say you're a fool if you do.
Message edited by author 2013-08-13 13:21:39. |
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08/13/2013 01:24:34 PM · #108 |
Wow. What did I start here?
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08/13/2013 01:28:35 PM · #109 |
Originally posted by Cory:
I think the basic question here comes down to "do you trust the police" - and I, with all due respect, say you're a fool if you do. |
Gotta say I agree with that statement. Police are supposed to protect and serve... yet, I find that rather than them being helpful, they are a nuisance.
That video justifies that point.
He told them what he was doing, that he was interested in photography as a hobby. I understand the whole "terrorism" issue that people are concerned with... but a helicopter, was that REALLY necessary?
And then the cop telling him he was going to document his information. Ooooohhhh... Mr. Big Bad Cop. Really? He's going to write down information?
I would have told him, "Well I'm going to document your information" and start writing down his name, badge number, and license plate number.
Listening to the man's voice, I wonder his race/ethnicity and if that took a role in all of this!
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08/13/2013 01:35:17 PM · #110 |
Originally posted by Cory:
And I never objected to them engaging with him. I objected to the half-dozen cars and the helicopter. Two cruisers really should have been sufficient. |
I think I'd agree with this. I believe that until now I've never expressed my own opinion about what would constitute the "appropriate" level of response, just asked others where on the response-continuum they thought it would fall.
If the helicopter was already in the air for some reason, I suppose it would be reasonable to have it at the scene or nearby, but scrambling it into the air based on a call from the police on the ground is a BIG waste and annoying to residents (I'm near the landing pad for "medi-vac" helicopters so I know) ... |
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08/13/2013 01:48:55 PM · #111 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Cory:
And I never objected to them engaging with him. I objected to the half-dozen cars and the helicopter. Two cruisers really should have been sufficient. |
I think I'd agree with this. I believe that until now I've never expressed my own opinion about what would constitute the "appropriate" level of response, just asked others where on the response-continuum they thought it would fall.
If the helicopter was already in the air for some reason, I suppose it would be reasonable to have it at the scene or nearby, but scrambling it into the air based on a call from the police on the ground is a BIG waste and annoying to residents (I'm near the landing pad for "medi-vac" helicopters so I know) ... |
So, a curiosity question:
Who audits the activities and response level here?
When I spend hours or call in resources on a client's job, I have to justify those costs. This is intended to stop the dishonest from padding, or doing unnecessary work to inflate their paycheck.
How different is this, when it comes to the police? Clearly that pilot needs a job, and the more calls an officer goes out on, the better his reviews I'm sure, especially an "armed" call.
But, there is a real cost to all of this, and clearly the police are often pretty carefree with resources, and of course, that carefree nature means that next year, the chief can, and will, ask for a budget increase - which is clearly needed, given the constantly rising costs of fighting crime.
So, if I was the chief, and over-responding meant that I got a larger budget, had safer officers, and was maybe just a little more effective at fighting crime, then sure, I'd over respond every time as well - what do they have to lose? It's a great play in fact. Unless you're a taxpayer that is. |
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08/13/2013 02:45:48 PM · #112 |
Originally posted by bohemka:
Originally posted by Spork99:
You explained nothing. You simply noted that cars are dangerous, but since they provide utility to you, by moving people around (despite killing 30-40,000 people annually), they are OK. Was that your explanation? |
No, this was his explanation:
Originally posted by posthumous:
If you read some history, you will learn that guns are human-killing machines. The only other type of gun is the animal-killing machine, developed much later.
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Comparing guns and cars is like comparing condoms and balloons. They can both accomplish the same thing, but one was invented and designed for that specific task. |
That was not his reply to me and it's also not an explanation.
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08/13/2013 02:56:33 PM · #113 |
Originally posted by Mike:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Don't you think the people who HAVE been railroaded by the police were just like you? They wanted to help, they wanted to cooperate and they wound up in prison. Some reward, huh? As long as it doesn't happen to you, it's OK? |
if by the small chance it happens, so be it. i'm not going to start acting like an a-hole because i might end up in jail.
i just find it really hard to believe that someone could get thrown in jail for no reason at all and because they "cooperated" there is almost always an underlying cause. |
So be it.
That's funny. You'd gladly help the police convict you of a crime you didn't commit just because you didn't want to be an a-hole. Your cellmate might find a new use for your a-hole while your family spends a decade or more to get your conviction overturned. All it takes is one "eyewitness" to mistakenly place you near the scene of a crime and you are done. But hey, the "good" guys you want so desperately to help get their conviction and that's what matters.
//www.innocenceproject.org/understand/
Message edited by author 2013-08-13 14:58:09. |
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08/13/2013 03:45:22 PM · #114 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Breaking news: "Wild Bill" Hickcok's revolver (the one he had when he was murdered) is coming up for aution in November -- get your bids in early! |
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08/13/2013 03:48:37 PM · #115 |
questions for a major crime? yes i'm not saying anything without a lawyer present but if get stopped at a traffic stop or a cop ask why i'm taking pictures at 3am...
like i said, common sense, we need more of it in the world.
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08/13/2013 04:04:10 PM · #116 |
Originally posted by Mike:
questions for a major crime? yes i'm not saying anything without a lawyer present but if get stopped at a traffic stop or a cop ask why i'm taking pictures at 3am...
like i said, common sense, we need more of it in the world. |
You may believe it's just a traffic stop. Maybe there was a break-in down the street and you just happened to be driving by...they pull you over and you match the vague description of the suspect...the victim says..."well, it looks like him"...bam! You're on your way to interrogation. Sleep, water and food deprivation. Incessant questioning, trick questions, false statements before the first 24hr are up, you're ready to admit to anything. You're not under arrest, but why don't you want to help?...that just makes you look bad...if it wasn't you, just tell us what happened when you were inside the house. |
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08/13/2013 04:20:24 PM · #117 |
| Anybody else getting the idea that Spork takes his moniker from the utensil with which he dug his way out of prison? |
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08/13/2013 04:21:26 PM · #118 |
Originally posted by skewsme:
Anybody else getting the idea that Spork takes his moniker from the utensil with which he dug his way out of prison? |
You can laugh, but I've been in the room he described, and that was long before I was intelligent enough to realize the games they were playing.
Message edited by author 2013-08-13 16:21:56. |
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08/13/2013 04:24:27 PM · #119 |
| he hasn't described a room |
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08/13/2013 04:37:04 PM · #120 |
Originally posted by skewsme:
he hasn't described a room |
He meant the one in the basement, you know, with the rack and thumbscrews ... |
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08/13/2013 04:54:58 PM · #121 |
Originally posted by skewsme:
he hasn't described a room |
yes he did, he was talking about an 'interview' room.
And they're actually quite nice, not a great chair, and he didn't offer me coffee, but it wasn't all bad.
But that's just part of the game, they want you to feel comfortable talking. He even did the cute little recorder thing, where he turned off the recorder to go 'off the record'...
You may not realize it, but there is a real danger in speaking to the police, for any reason. I'm not making it up, and there are plenty of people who thought the same thing you seem to, until it cost them - either time in jail, or money to a lawyer, but really. Talking to the police, for any reason beyond asking directions, or calling for help, is not advisable.
Message edited by author 2013-08-13 16:55:36. |
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08/13/2013 05:28:41 PM · #122 |
Originally posted by Cory:
...and there are plenty of people who thought the same thing you seem to, until it cost them - either time in jail, or money to a lawyer, but really. |
Ok then. I take it back. Let's say he used a spoon instead. |
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08/13/2013 05:38:30 PM · #123 |
Originally posted by skewsme:
Originally posted by Cory:
...and there are plenty of people who thought the same thing you seem to, until it cost them - either time in jail, or money to a lawyer, but really. |
Ok then. I take it back. Let's say he used a spoon instead. |
Spoons are much cheaper.
Especially rusty spoons. |
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08/13/2013 05:40:12 PM · #124 |
I remember when my kids first showed me this!! Long ago.
CREEPY
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08/13/2013 07:54:48 PM · #125 |
Originally posted by Denielle:
Especially rusty spoons.
I remember when my kids first showed me this!! Long ago.
CREEPY
Strange video, that's 1.50 minutes of my life that I'll never get back.
Message edited by author 2013-08-13 19:55:22. |
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