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07/10/2013 02:06:45 PM · #51 |
Here's a sobering look at the ideal, the perception, and the reality: Take the time to scroll through it all.
Message edited by frisca - image removed for being too large.. |
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07/10/2013 02:28:45 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Originally posted by Spork99:
To be fair, the unions have been responsible for their share of crooked deals too.
I could relate countless stories about dealing with unions and their workers. |
I don't think union corruption comes anywhere near, in scope or scale, to what the corporations and governments are perpetrating. Far from it. But they are still the best organizing force for the middle class. |
Maybe not, but they certainly give fuel to the notion that they are corrupt. I've been both a union member and I've had to work with union workers to get things done inside facilities. There's a reason for tripling the installation time estimates when scheduling a job where we have to install equipment using union workers vs. using our own. |
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07/10/2013 02:29:32 PM · #53 |
Very interesting Robert. I have some views about it that I doubt could be discussed in a thread, but to summarize I think this is capitalism and there is no way around it. You might be able to make small adjustments, but it's gonna look like this. Not to say that's "good", but I think it's inevitable.
I am personally convinced that the single most powerful way to circulate wealth is through what is often called the Death Tax. Just my opinion though (and not a popular one). |
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07/10/2013 02:31:01 PM · #54 |
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07/10/2013 02:38:29 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
We don't have to pay a bribe to make sure our kids are enrolled in school or when we interact with the police or to keep our water running. |
No, we have taxes. Or, if you want your kids to get a step up, tuition (while still paying the tax). |
You don't think "they" have taxes, too?
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The difference is largely semantics. To the average citizen, trying to get things done, the difference isn't really that great, you have to pay people to get things done. Here, it's slightly more legitimized because it's the government doing it on a huge scale and handing the proceeds in the form of tax incentives, mineral rights and other favorable legislation over to corporations that dangling the promise of "jobs" or some other community benefit while simply increasing the accumulation of wealth for the few at the expense of the many. At least with a bribe, you have a reasonable who the money is going to. |
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07/10/2013 04:08:58 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Originally posted by Spork99:
To be fair, the unions have been responsible for their share of crooked deals too.
I could relate countless stories about dealing with unions and their workers. |
I don't think union corruption comes anywhere near, in scope or scale, to what the corporations and governments are perpetrating. Far from it. But they are still the best organizing force for the middle class. |
Maybe not, but they certainly give fuel to the notion that they are corrupt. I've been both a union member and I've had to work with union workers to get things done inside facilities. There's a reason for tripling the installation time estimates when scheduling a job where we have to install equipment using union workers vs. using our own. |
This kind of corruption has always existed in all sectors of society and I'm appalled when I see it at my job, but it's not the kind referred to in the original article that is changing our nation from a democratic republic to a plutocratic republic. It's what happens when things get so big that there are few to no meaningful controls and those that perpetrate this corruption see that they can keep getting away with it in one for or another. The only form of institution that can grow large enough to make an equal fight of it, that I can see, are unions. Maybe not perfect, but at least the rank and file can have some say in how their unions are run. |
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07/10/2013 09:11:36 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Maybe you can start by pointing out to your socially conservative friends the degree to which unfettered corporate capitalism is incompatible with Christian values. If we can only agree to disagree about abortion and (public) school prayer there is, as you point out, near-complete agreement on most other major points of interest to ordinary folk.
Not only that, I think it's what most "ordinary folk" in France, China, India, Iran, and almost everyplace else agree on as well ... |
Going back a page to catch up. I think you may have misunderstood General! That is exactly what we are talking about. As social conservatives, we see the harm that unfettered corporate capitalism is doing to our government and our nation. I am finding it a surprise that I am in agreement with progressives on this issue. |
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07/10/2013 09:22:30 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Originally posted by EL-ROI:
Here\'s the real deal... this is a war against the middle class. The middle class consists of both conservatives and liberals. I happen to be a middle class conservative who understands that both the GOP and the Democrat party have sold out to the global corporate raiders. I understand that both parties are using extreme social issues as a smoke screen to divide and conquer so they can ram through policy that continues to make them more elite and more powerful. The real question is how do you congeal a movement of a class of people who are opposed to each other on so many issues? How is the middle class consisting of people from both the left and the right going to coalesce around this one important economic issue when there is no agreement on so many other issues?
I hear the progressives out there and what they are saying about the loss of good paying middle class jobs, the movement of factories out of the country, the destruction of sensible government policy meant to stabilize the economic system and keep corporations and banks in check, and I realize I am talking about these very same issues with my conservative friends. We see it too! And when I read the story like the one linked above and I see it is on a progressive website and I am in agreement with the article, I tend to feel I have to hold my nose when I read the comments of the people posting under the article talking of reigniting the anti-war era protest style. (I am just being honest here.) I just can\'t believe that after all these years of divided, polarized politics between left and right, here right before us is an issue which we can all stand together on. And we don\'t know how. |
Is \"unions\" a dirty word for a conservative? People of various persuasions stand together under the umbrella representation and protection of a union. They fight for the middle class. A major reason for the state we now face is the much weaker position of unions. The checks and balances provided by unions against big business has largely been negated from the forces of globalization, automation, and union busting campaigns. Unions will allow the middle class to coalesce their voices and powers to stand up to big business and big govt but don\'t count on it being polite conversation. It\'s going to be a loud and ugly fight, it always has been. |
Union is only a dirty word in as much as unions are in bed with the democrat party as major fundraisers using union dues, major democrat party voter registers through efforts like the new obamacare grants to groups like the SEIO to promote the liberal government policy and raise more funds and register more voters, which is a blatant corruption. I do totally understand why the Unions would not side with the GOP though. The GOP hasn't done a thing for them except sold them down the river. At least the Democrats use and abuse them.
The way I see it, unions ought to be pissed at the democrats since Clinton initiated NAFTA and most favored nation trading status with China, Obama signed the South Korea Free Trade Deal and is now negotiating and pressing for the TPP and the EU Free trade agreements. There will be no jobs left for the unions once those agreements go through.
Unions ought not to get the blame for the economy or the corporations going overseas like the GOP is so quick to do. The corporations granted them all those high wages and perks and benefits during negotiations. What the government has failed to do is protect our workers through tariffs. |
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07/10/2013 09:24:48 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Originally posted by EL-ROI:
I just can't believe that after all these years of divided, polarized politics between left and right, here right before us is an issue which we can all stand together on. And we don't know how. |
Well, I'm doing it now (and have done it before), working with people with whom I have nothing in common and who I would otherwise want to strangle. lol! Here in upstate New York, the oil and gas companies have leased over half the land in the county where I reside for natural gas fracking, and Governor Cuomo is hell bent on allowing it to go forward. This is Republican Country. I can't talk to these folks about abortion or just about any other "social" issue, but the majority of them don't want fracking (even though they were duped into signing leases), and I don't want fracking either, so I put on the blinders and focus on just the fracking issue when I'm engaged in organized activity with these folks. I don't know any other way to do it. |
I can see how that is a necessity. Would like to hear more about the organization and what you are doing. |
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07/10/2013 09:56:43 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by EL-ROI:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Maybe you can start by pointing out to your socially conservative friends the degree to which unfettered corporate capitalism is incompatible with Christian values. If we can only agree to disagree about abortion and (public) school prayer there is, as you point out, near-complete agreement on most other major points of interest to ordinary folk.
Not only that, I think it's what most "ordinary folk" in France, China, India, Iran, and almost everyplace else agree on as well ... |
Going back a page to catch up. I think you may have misunderstood General! That is exactly what we are talking about. As social conservatives, we see the harm that unfettered corporate capitalism is doing to our government and our nation. I am finding it a surprise that I am in agreement with progressives on this issue. |
Right -- I meant point out to the "economic conservatives," not those of you who already see the hypocrisy of the situation. I'm not all that surprised to be in agreement with those who actually take some time and think about the issues. |
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07/10/2013 10:01:27 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by EL-ROI:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Maybe you can start by pointing out to your socially conservative friends the degree to which unfettered corporate capitalism is incompatible with Christian values. If we can only agree to disagree about abortion and (public) school prayer there is, as you point out, near-complete agreement on most other major points of interest to ordinary folk.
Not only that, I think it's what most "ordinary folk" in France, China, India, Iran, and almost everyplace else agree on as well ... |
Going back a page to catch up. I think you may have misunderstood General! That is exactly what we are talking about. As social conservatives, we see the harm that unfettered corporate capitalism is doing to our government and our nation. I am finding it a surprise that I am in agreement with progressives on this issue. |
Right -- I meant point out to the "economic conservatives," not those of you who already see the hypocrisy of the situation. I'm not all that surprised to be in agreement with those who actually take some time and think about the issues. |
Oh, Gotcha! What, think? Who does that anymore. We are a nation of low information voters... TMZ Rulez! |
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07/12/2013 12:52:39 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
We don't have to pay a bribe to make sure our kids are enrolled in school or when we interact with the police or to keep our water running. |
No, we have taxes. Or, if you want your kids to get a step up, tuition (while still paying the tax). |
You don't think "they" have taxes, too?
Look, bribery is a very real thing in third-world countries, it's the ultimate corruption as felt by the average citizen. It's the corruption that doesn't allow anything to happen until you grease somebody's palm. I'm very familiar with it from all my years in Baja California before it became a tourist hot spot.
Anyway none of this is relevant to the overriding thrust of the discussion in this post, which is that The corporations OWN us, not the other way around. Way way too much power has been delivered into the hands of corporate interests that, by definition, exist for no other purpose than to maximize profit, regardless of the collateral damage to society at large. |
US Tax System worse than Zimbabwe
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