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DPChallenge Forums >> Challenge Suggestions >> Expand advanced editing to expert for free studies
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 06/01/2013 08:43:23 AM · #26
Originally posted by Mike:
So many for whatever reason don't want digital art in a free study and I can appreciate that. So if there were some way to stipulate the final product must maintain its photographic integrity and I realize how difficult it would be. Would folks be more open to a freer rule set?

So basically is the style of image the problem or the relaxed rules?


From the expert rules discription: "Please remember, however, that this is a photography contest. You are encouraged to keep your entries photographic in nature, and voters are encouraged to rate entries accordingly" if you havent noticed the highest scoring images and voters tend to completly ignore this, I have no doubt it will also be ignored in a free study. If there was a way to keep things photogenic in nature and stop fantastical digital art taking over I would be totally up for abandoning all rules exept the timeline in the FS.
 06/01/2013 08:53:29 AM · #27
Actually if you don't allow compositing it think it would fix the problem. Continuations of the same scene are legal, e.g. panorama as well as replacing a background so long as the original context of the image is maintained.

For instance you can replace a sky with a sky. You cant replace a studio backdrop with a seascape, merely a clean gradient. You can't replace day with night. You can't replace landscape with urban. The original context of the main image must be maintained. Is it subjective? Yes but so are many rules already.

Textures must be applied to the whole image.

Specific rules will force out the ability to create digital masterpeices in free studies.
 06/01/2013 09:26:33 AM · #28
Originally posted by Mike:
Actually if you don't allow compositing it think it would fix the problem. Continuations of the same scene are legal, e.g. panorama as well as replacing a background so long as the original context of the image is maintained.

For instance you can replace a sky with a sky. You cant replace a studio backdrop with a seascape, merely a clean gradient. You can't replace day with night. You can't replace landscape with urban. The original context of the main image must be maintained. Is it subjective? Yes but so are many rules already.

Textures must be applied to the whole image.

Specific rules will force out the ability to create digital masterpeices in free studies.


Here is the solution.
after you process your pick of the month, you just let the rest of people know what the rules for that month would be. Do you think rule like that would work for you?
06/01/2013 09:38:03 AM · #29
Why not just have a separate free study with expert editing rules like previously suggested! I myself enjoy this rule set, while it can create a lot of fantasy images, it can also create a lot of artistic ones as well. I think this would help those that don't do a lot of expert editing challenges a chance to hone their skills if they wish, and also receive some corrective criticism in the process. Just my two cents this morning!
 06/01/2013 09:40:44 AM · #30
I think you've hit on something very important here Mike.
people seem to be against change so these suggestions, even if they are common sense may fall on deaf or even hostile ears.

if it is truly a free study it should be a free study in all manners, compositional as well as editing. If you don't like expert editing then you don't have to use it.
I am not certain why people are so concerned with other people's editing styles. it seems to me that a while back this should have been implemented.
 06/01/2013 09:49:08 AM · #31
Originally posted by blindjustice:
I think you've hit on something very important here Mike.
people seem to be against change so these suggestions, even if they are common sense may fall on deaf or even hostile ears.

if it is truly a free study it should be a free study in all manners, compositional as well as editing. If you don't like expert editing then you don't have to use it.
I am not certain why people are so concerned with other people's editing styles. it seems to me that a while back this should have been implemented.


I have no problem with change... but, IMO, to change the ruleset of Free Study to Expert would move DPC in a direction I might not want to follow.
I say keep the expert challenges expert and those who like to create can continue to do so. But the Free Studies should be limited to photography.

06/01/2013 10:37:02 AM · #32
Originally posted by PennyStreet:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
I think you've hit on something very important here Mike.
people seem to be against change so these suggestions, even if they are common sense may fall on deaf or even hostile ears.

if it is truly a free study it should be a free study in all manners, compositional as well as editing. If you don't like expert editing then you don't have to use it.
I am not certain why people are so concerned with other people's editing styles. it seems to me that a while back this should have been implemented.


I have no problem with change... but, IMO, to change the ruleset of Free Study to Expert would move DPC in a direction I might not want to follow.
I say keep the expert challenges expert and those who like to create can continue to do so. But the Free Studies should be limited to photography.


I agree with the essence of thus point, but it really is an issue for voting. Are we afraid that voters will prefer expert editing work more than straight out of the camera?
 06/01/2013 10:58:24 AM · #33
...I would just like some sort of rule set where I would be able to use a texture overlay, but not make my cats into hot air balloons and such.
 06/01/2013 11:12:31 AM · #34
Originally posted by Mike:
So many for whatever reason don't want digital art in a free study and I can appreciate that. So if there were some way to stipulate the final product must maintain its photographic integrity and I realize how difficult it would be. Would folks be more open to a freer rule set?

So basically is the style of image the problem or the relaxed rules?


I'm all for more freedom, and love that part of Expert editing. I think you’re on the right track here Mike, but I get what everyone else is saying so that it doesn’t become full blown digital art.
I would love to be able to do the Brenizer Effect or even stich a few photos together for a more dynamic landscape. Maybe something like all elements have to be actual photographs from that month and any “drawing” must be limited to no more than a small percentage per photo, just to keep it from being a digital drawingâ€Â¦
06/01/2013 11:14:27 AM · #35
Originally posted by blindjustice:
I think you've hit on something very important here Mike.
people seem to be against change so these suggestions, even if they are common sense may fall on deaf or even hostile ears.

if it is truly a free study it should be a free study in all manners, compositional as well as editing. If you don't like expert editing then you don't have to use it.
I am not certain why people are so concerned with other people's editing styles. it seems to me that a while back this should have been implemented.


It is truly a Free Study. A Free Study in photography and photo editing....not Photo composites and multiple photo manipulation. There is nothing at all wrong with that digital art form, but oranges and apples should not be mixed in competition. It's like comparing two people's abilities to write computer programs to someone else's ability to fix cars. Great skills, but no where near being the same, and the two should not be compared in competition. Have an expert editing Free Study AND a regular Free Study each month if people want it, but don't mix the two. If DPC does mix it you will have the same 3 or 5 people winning ribbons in the Free Study each month, and membership with fall even faster than it has in the past.

Dave
 06/01/2013 11:17:39 AM · #36
Bad Idea to have the FS ruined by allowing too much manipulation. If you wanna run 2 separate then go for it.
 06/01/2013 11:27:05 AM · #37
Originally posted by DCNUTTER:
snip......, and membership with fall even faster than it has in the past.

Dave


In the last year, participation in the FS has dropped month over month - with now only 189 entries in May versus 259 in July 2012. The average participation in the expert editing challenges in the last year has been 51 per challenge (yes, I calculated it), do we want the FS to go that way too and drive more people away from participating? I do like the idea of being able to use textures/overlays etc, but can't help feeling the demise of DPC would accelerate if moving to the full expert ruleset in the FS.

Message edited by author 2013-06-01 11:41:18.
 06/01/2013 11:42:01 AM · #38
If FS goes expert I might quit DPC.
 06/01/2013 12:36:29 PM · #39
Originally posted by Tiny:
Originally posted by Tiny:
Down with rules.
There are way too many.


+1


-2 from me... just trying to even things out. :O)

Ray

Edited to add... a resounding NO to the proposal.


Message edited by author 2013-06-01 12:39:49.
 06/01/2013 12:38:16 PM · #40
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Originally posted by PennyStreet:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
I think you've hit on something very important here Mike.
people seem to be against change so these suggestions, even if they are common sense may fall on deaf or even hostile ears.

if it is truly a free study it should be a free study in all manners, compositional as well as editing. If you don't like expert editing then you don't have to use it.
I am not certain why people are so concerned with other people's editing styles. it seems to me that a while back this should have been implemented.


I have no problem with change... but, IMO, to change the ruleset of Free Study to Expert would move DPC in a direction I might not want to follow.
I say keep the expert challenges expert and those who like to create can continue to do so. But the Free Studies should be limited to photography.


I agree with the essence of thus point, but it really is an issue for voting. Are we afraid that voters will prefer expert editing work more than straight out of the camera?


Perhaps a study of the scores meted out in the different genres might give us some indication... anyone up to that?

Ray
 06/01/2013 12:41:53 PM · #41
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Mike:
So if there were some way to stipulate the final product must maintain its photographic integrity and I realize how difficult it would be. Would folks be more open to a freer rule set?

You mean like the first paragraph of the existing Expert Editing rules?


If you feel that way, then I'd have to honestly say you are neglecting your duties.

If you/SC agrees that the rule should be interpreted as to exclude crazy fantasy digital compilations, then you've been failing to hand out disqualifications.
 06/01/2013 12:47:41 PM · #42
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Originally posted by PennyStreet:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
I think you've hit on something very important here Mike.
people seem to be against change so these suggestions, even if they are common sense may fall on deaf or even hostile ears.

if it is truly a free study it should be a free study in all manners, compositional as well as editing. If you don't like expert editing then you don't have to use it.
I am not certain why people are so concerned with other people's editing styles. it seems to me that a while back this should have been implemented.


I have no problem with change... but, IMO, to change the ruleset of Free Study to Expert would move DPC in a direction I might not want to follow.
I say keep the expert challenges expert and those who like to create can continue to do so. But the Free Studies should be limited to photography.


I agree with the essence of thus point, but it really is an issue for voting. Are we afraid that voters will prefer expert editing work more than straight out of the camera?


Believe it or not, I'm proud of this site and, put simply, I want to continue to enjoy the photographs here. I feel rather strongly that moving FS to Expert would not be a good move for DPC.
06/01/2013 01:07:17 PM · #43
Originally posted by PennyStreet:
Believe it or not, I'm proud of this site and, put simply, I want to continue to enjoy the photographs here. I feel rather strongly that moving FS to Expert would not be a good move for DPC.


My thoughts exactly. While I enjoy seeing the occasional Expert editing challenge, I don't feel that they're what the true spirit of DPC is all about. This is a case of "it ain't broke."
 06/01/2013 01:19:23 PM · #44
No.

But I've often wondered about a quarterly, mid-month Expert Free Study (so as not to overlap with the regular monthly one). There's one process that I enjoy working with that's only legal in Expert. And usually I'm constrained by the bizarre Expert themes.
 06/01/2013 01:30:14 PM · #45
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Mike:
So if there were some way to stipulate the final product must maintain its photographic integrity and I realize how difficult it would be. Would folks be more open to a freer rule set?

You mean like the first paragraph of the existing Expert Editing rules?


If you feel that way, then I'd have to honestly say you are neglecting your duties.

If you/SC agrees that the rule should be interpreted as to exclude crazy fantasy digital compilations, then you've been failing to hand out disqualifications.


Its not a dqable offense is it? The voters are supposed to self police and don't.

So we have allowed expert to become what it shouldn't have and thus we won't expand a free study to what it should be out of fear of what it will become.

Got it
 06/01/2013 01:54:03 PM · #46
Originally posted by bvy:
No.

But I've often wondered about a quarterly, mid-month Expert Free Study (so as not to overlap with the regular monthly one). There's one process that I enjoy working with that's only legal in Expert. And usually I'm constrained by the bizarre Expert themes.

Are you (proponents) interested in looking at fascinating images, or outscoring your opponents in the eyes of a random pool of voters?

If the former, one of you could start a thread "Unlimited Editing Free Study Side-Challenge For June, 2013" ...
 06/01/2013 02:12:04 PM · #47
Another "No" from me.
 06/01/2013 02:48:20 PM · #48
Originally posted by RKT:
...I would just like some sort of rule set where I would be able to use a texture overlay, but not make my cats into hot air balloons and such.


I think this grandpa image might use lot of texturizing.
He was fully created from scratch, 3D rendering, texturizing and digitally paints to look so real. If the base was simply an image capture by camera, would it be okay for Advanced Editing?
 06/01/2013 03:46:31 PM · #49
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Are you (proponents) interested in looking at fascinating images, or outscoring your opponents in the eyes of a random pool of voters?

If you think I'm interested in "outscoring" anyone, you haven't looked at my portfolio lately. Unless I'm not understanding...
06/01/2013 03:59:57 PM · #50
Originally posted by alexlky:
Originally posted by RKT:
...I would just like some sort of rule set where I would be able to use a texture overlay, but not make my cats into hot air balloons and such.


I think this grandpa image might use lot of texturizing.
He was fully created from scratch, 3D rendering, texturizing and digitally paints to look so real. If the base was simply an image capture by camera, would it be okay for Advanced Editing?


...not that sort of textury thing I'm talking about...more like this:



I'm talking about being able to use a simple texture as an overlay.

And I have to really agree with bvy on this point;

And usually I'm constrained by the bizarre Expert themes.

Maybe we just need to simplify the themes a bit for the Expert challenges we do have.

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