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05/16/2013 09:24:14 PM · #151 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Shouldn't that read "all debates"? |
Maybe, but I'm in business to sell papers, so.... |
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05/16/2013 09:25:01 PM · #152 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
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Shouldn't that read "all debates"? |
that's a scary set of pictures.
I think we need more scary white females in the debate.
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05/16/2013 09:25:23 PM · #153 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
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Shouldn't that read "all debates"? |
that's a scary set of pictures.
I think we need more scary white females in the debate. |
or squirrels...
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05/16/2013 09:32:30 PM · #154 |
| I'm going to deal with the harsh reality that I'm a middle aged white dude with a soak in the hot tub. :( |
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05/16/2013 09:39:15 PM · #155 |
| I'm playing golf with Rovy Wade. |
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05/16/2013 09:51:27 PM · #156 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by tnun:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
...
We have no trouble distinguishing what is human from what is not human. |
ah, but then where is the mystery? where does that leave the druids? and how the heck are we going to make rules for the aliens when they take over?
Jason makes me feel so safe unsafe. |
Well if the aliens take over wont they be the ones making the rules? :) |
I mean the rules for The Peace of Resistance, manned and womaned by the members of DPC. |
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05/16/2013 09:51:40 PM · #157 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
Originally posted by vawendy:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
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Shouldn't that read "all debates"? |
that's a scary set of pictures.
I think we need more scary white females in the debate. |
or squirrels... |
With all those nuts I'm surprised we haven't been beset by hordes of the fuzzy-tailed critters ... |
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05/16/2013 10:44:39 PM · #158 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
You just think that because you are a lawyer. :P |
you are probably right... |
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05/17/2013 06:11:23 AM · #159 |
An accident victim is in a coma and they get hooked up to life support in a hospital. The doctors think there's a very good chance they'll regain consciousness, so they intend to keep them on life support until they do.
Someone wants to turn off the life support machine at 20 weeks. But the doctors know the person will survive if they make it to 24 weeks.
With our artificial womb scenario, we *know* the baby will survive if they can make it to 24 weeks without someone turning off the machine. In fact, they stand a much better chance than our accident victim.
We're talking about 2 humans, both of them unconsciousness, who are dependent on some external life support machine to keep them alive until they attain consciousness. What's the difference? |
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05/17/2013 07:41:33 AM · #160 |
Originally posted by JH:
An accident victim is in a coma and they get hooked up to life support in a hospital. The doctors think there's a very good chance they'll regain consciousness, so they intend to keep them on life support until they do.
Someone wants to turn off the life support machine at 20 weeks. But the doctors know the person will survive if they make it to 24 weeks.
With our artificial womb scenario, we *know* the baby will survive if they can make it to 24 weeks without someone turning off the machine. In fact, they stand a much better chance than our accident victim.
We're talking about 2 humans, both of them unconsciousness, who are dependent on some external life support machine to keep them alive until they attain consciousness. What's the difference? |
The insurance company won't pay for the first one. 60 days is all you get... |
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05/17/2013 12:07:04 PM · #161 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I've noted many times there is a gray area where multiple answers could be valid. |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
OK -- so we agree there's no bright line of demarcation, and there is room for reasonable people to have differing but equally valid opinions ...
If a fertilized ovum isn't a "human being" then I think it would follow that use of those new stem cells derived from embryos which were never fertilized (rather stimulated into growth with a chemical/electrical process) would be OK, particularly if used in life-saving treatments for actual living breathing thinking humans ... |
Hasn't this discussion gotten us back to what Monica said earlier? "Anyone, on any point in the line, looks ahead, and looks behind, and thinks everyone else has got it all wrong. Hence the choice, within reasonable (mostly) agreed upon by law parameters." |
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05/17/2013 01:25:26 PM · #162 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Hasn't this discussion gotten us back to what Monica said earlier? "Anyone, on any point in the line, looks ahead, and looks behind, and thinks everyone else has got it all wrong. Hence the choice, within reasonable (mostly) agreed upon by law parameters." |
In a way, but maybe the question is the timeframe of "reasonable" choice. My personal timeframe is on the order of days to weeks, not months. After that point I believe the choice becomes less reasonable for all the reasons noted above. |
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05/17/2013 02:34:42 PM · #163 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Hasn't this discussion gotten us back to what Monica said earlier? "Anyone, on any point in the line, looks ahead, and looks behind, and thinks everyone else has got it all wrong. Hence the choice, within reasonable (mostly) agreed upon by law parameters." |
In a way, but maybe the question is the timeframe of "reasonable" choice. My personal timeframe is on the order of days to weeks, not months. After that point I believe the choice becomes less reasonable for all the reasons noted above. |
Well, I have to admit, I wasn't expecting that answer from you. :-) In any event, I think most everyone would agree that the earlier in the process, the better. Perhaps we will see some good results with the Plan B pill finally being available over-the-counter. |
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05/17/2013 02:55:33 PM · #164 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Hasn't this discussion gotten us back to what Monica said earlier? "Anyone, on any point in the line, looks ahead, and looks behind, and thinks everyone else has got it all wrong. Hence the choice, within reasonable (mostly) agreed upon by law parameters." |
In a way, but maybe the question is the timeframe of "reasonable" choice. My personal timeframe is on the order of days to weeks, not months. After that point I believe the choice becomes less reasonable for all the reasons noted above. |
Well, I have to admit, I wasn't expecting that answer from you. :-) In any event, I think most everyone would agree that the earlier in the process, the better. Perhaps we will see some good results with the Plan B pill finally being available over-the-counter. |
I'm happy to surprise you. :) Let's put it this way. My personal belief would still have moral concern with ending a pregnancy at almost any point, BUT I understand we live in a society. I would feel more comfortable with a law that limited abortions to, say, six weeks to give room for Plan B or chemical abortions versus ones that put the limit at 12 weeks or even later. Not because I think that's right, but because I understand we live in a diverse society. |
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05/17/2013 03:54:18 PM · #165 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'm happy to surprise you. :) Let's put it this way. My personal belief would still have moral concern with ending a pregnancy at almost any point, BUT I understand we live in a society. I would feel more comfortable with a law that limited abortions to, say, six weeks to give room for Plan B or chemical abortions versus ones that put the limit at 12 weeks or even later. |
Why that limit, what happens to an embryo at 6 weeks? - I mean, at 5 weeks the brain and nervous system have started to form. Why not 4 weeks?
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05/17/2013 04:26:42 PM · #166 |
Originally posted by JH:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'm happy to surprise you. :) Let's put it this way. My personal belief would still have moral concern with ending a pregnancy at almost any point, BUT I understand we live in a society. I would feel more comfortable with a law that limited abortions to, say, six weeks to give room for Plan B or chemical abortions versus ones that put the limit at 12 weeks or even later. |
Why that limit, what happens to an embryo at 6 weeks? - I mean, at 5 weeks the brain and nervous system have started to form. Why not 4 weeks? |
Nothing. It's arbitrary. Like you said, brain activity starts at about 6 weeks, but I wasn't really picking because of that. I picked it because it seems like a compromise number. The takehome is the earlier the cutoff the more willing I am to go along. |
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05/17/2013 04:27:25 PM · #167 |
It is so hard. Seriously -- whether or not you're religious really doesn't have to play into it.
Perhaps it's just because I'm female and the hormones played into it. But I had to have an ultrasound because I was bleeding.
I heard a heartbeat. I saw the pictures. Let me tell you, I sure as heck didn't understand the pictures until they were explained, but then I sure did see it.
But I heard the heart beat.
I had a living thing inside of me. It couldn't survive without me, but if someone pulled it out, I do feel it would have been murder.
Whether abortion is right or wrong -- I can't get past the fact that there is definitely something alive. You can't convince me it's not.
If you take it out, you've killed it.
The question is, is that acceptable.
To me -- it's killing something, and that's hard for me to accept.
I hate that people do it for birth control. That there are women that have come in multiple times to get rid of multiple babies. Get sterilized, then, or learn to use the real birth control!
I hate the fact that people who want to control things say that if you are raped -- you should be forced to carry the child. Even if I consider it murder to abort -- I could never, ever tell a woman that she has to go through that. Never.
A mother should never be forced to carry a child if it requires her to lose her own life. Even if it's murder to abort, it's murder to force the mother to carry. Why is ok to kill the mother and not the child?
There are instances where, though it's murder and it's heinous, it may be necessary.
I just wish it wasn't looked at as "it's my choice and my right to kill this thing inside of me." Because I don't think it's right.
I too agree with Doc -- I wish it was earlier. Maybe it's just to ease our consciences.
But I heard that heartbeat.
And it was definitely within that first trimester.
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05/17/2013 07:49:49 PM · #168 |
| If it really was murder, than those opposed, in not foregoing sleep until no one ever has another abortion again, have morally failed and are near complicit. If its not murder, why make people feel bad about a tough but legal decision? |
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05/22/2013 10:17:25 AM · #169 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by yanko:
Shouldn't that read "all debates"? |
Maybe, but I'm in business to sell papers, so.... |
Is this a daily paper? Is it available on the internets? I may want to subscribe.
As a contractor for the Justice Department I already have access to your editors
thought processes and communications, but I'd really like to read the final product. |
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05/22/2013 11:25:26 AM · #170 |
Originally posted by Erastus:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by yanko:
Shouldn't that read "all debates"? |
Maybe, but I'm in business to sell papers, so.... |
Is this a daily paper? Is it available on the internets? I may want to subscribe.
As a contractor for the Justice Department I already have access to your editors
thought processes and communications, but I'd really like to read the final product. |
Rolling. |
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