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05/15/2013 02:35:28 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by Mike:
why? want to remove some red tape, ok, but why remove another avenue? |
We remove avenues all the time as a society. What is acceptable to society? We don't have infanticide as an avenue because society has declared it not acceptable. Why would we say this? Why remove that avenue from the woman saddled with caring for the baby? A sizable portion of our society feels that abortion is more like an extension of infanticide than anything else.
Message edited by author 2013-05-15 14:36:14. |
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05/15/2013 02:39:54 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by LydiaToo:
I'm very sorry for the pain of knowing that your father, whom you think you love and who you think loved you, left you with your mother despite how he knew you'd be treated.
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I just had to address this one little bit directly. :)
You have to realize that he was gone for work, so he could send money home, so she could ostensibly spend it on taking care of me. (I suspect it didn't always go to the appropriate expenditures...) He didn't bail out on me, he was just crazy busy earning a living - I didn't understand it at the time, and it did breed a little resentment in me when I was younger - fueled by my mother's venom and manipulation (she's always hated him for getting her pregnant and ruining her life, she's even said so directly).. Now? I realize he was just doing the best he could to provide for us - no matter what the outcome, at least his intentions were honest and good, which is a hell of a lot more than can ever be said for my mother. |
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05/15/2013 02:41:07 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
A sizable portion of our society feels that abortion is more like an extension of infanticide than anything else. |
Funny enough, this same sizable portion of our society is extremely likely to also believe in all sorts of other strange notions. |
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05/15/2013 03:17:04 PM · #54 |
As opposed to all the clear-headedness you've displayed above. :) Rights for elk! Payments for abortions! Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. had it right in 1927!
I'm pretty sure I'll stick with those "strange notions" if the alternative is the stuff above... |
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05/15/2013 03:53:13 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
As opposed to all the clear-headedness you've displayed above. :) Rights for elk! Payments for abortions! Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. had it right in 1927!
I'm pretty sure I'll stick with those "strange notions" if the alternative is the stuff above... |
But.. Justice Holmes DID have it right in 1927.
Originally posted by "Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr":
"We have seen more than once that the public welfare may call upon the best citizens for their lives. It would be strange if it could not call upon those who already sap the strength of the State for these lesser sacrifices, often not felt to be such by those concerned, to prevent our being swamped with incompetence. It is better for all the world, if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime, or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes. Three generations of imbeciles are enough." |
Now, we're not exactly talking about the same thing (forced sterilization vs. choice of abortion), but he was certainly accurate about the results, which I posted earlier in this thread.
BTW: I suppose I too may be a 'Great Dissenter'.. Or really, a 'Lesser Dissenter' since my forum is relatively tiny.
Message edited by author 2013-05-15 16:04:40. |
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05/15/2013 04:12:16 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by LydiaToo:
Women are told that it's not a baby... it's just tissue.
Then, years later they realize what they've done and it's an emotional scar that is very hard to heal... not to mention the fact that there is a high percentage of women who, after having an abortion, who can no longer get pregnant ... when it's convenient for them.
The fact is that it is much safer and healthier for the mother to give birth to the baby instead of having an abortion.
There are people who desperately want the baby.
Something should also be done to make adoption more affordable. |
First, even in the United States, shocking as this may seem, it is NOT safer and healthier to have a baby. The mortality and complication rate for childbirth is higher, much higher, than for abortion. You can look up these statistics, or I'll look it up and post it later when I have time.
Second, there isn't any evidence that I'm aware of that having an abortion makes it more difficult to get pregnant later. Can you post some support for that assertion?
Third, you should do a search for the reasons women decide to abort a pregnancy. A very high percentage say their partners don't want a child, or they wouldn't be able to care for a child, or their economic circumstances won't permit it. Now, you may say, well, just have the baby anyway and then adopt it out. But (and I agree with Cory here), if you're black or a minority and poor, and you have tenuous employment, or even if you're white and poor and your employment is tenuous, and/or you don't have a solid relationship with your partner, getting through that 9-month period of a pregnancy may wreck your whole life. I don't know the actual numbers, but I'd guess, agreeing again with Cory, that it's not going to be as easy to arrange an adoption for a minority child as it is for the white middle-class woman who has all kinds of support systems and the knowledge to get the help they need. So while there may be some women who regret having had an abortion, there are also many who, while they regret being in the situation where they have to choose abortion, never regret the decision given their circumstances. |
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05/15/2013 05:03:22 PM · #57 |
I think the most eloquent reply to Judith's third point is found by an author name Ross Douthat.
"Almost nothing that human beings do in life is freighted with as many potential consequences as sexual relations: emotional consequences, physical consequences, and above all, the world-altering consequence of creating an entirely new human life. The promises of the sexual revolution nothwithstanding, neither contraception nor abortion has done away with these realities. Sex may be "safe" with pills and condoms, but it's never anythhing remotely close to safe."
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05/15/2013 05:09:14 PM · #58 |
| Personally, Cory, I'm very happy we have tried to leave Social Darwinism back in the first half of the 20th century. If you wish to resurrect it, I wish to have nothing to do with you. |
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05/15/2013 05:48:55 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Personally, Cory, I'm very happy we have tried to leave Social Darwinism back in the first half of the 20th century. If you wish to resurrect it, I wish to have nothing to do with you. |
How exactly does giving a woman the choice, and reasoning out the benefits of that choice equate to Social Darwinism?
I suppose if you honestly find such reasoning offensive, then I can truly say that I would be most gladly divested of your company. |
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05/15/2013 06:03:56 PM · #60 |
| The quote by Holmes, which you said had the correct sentiment and was "right", was part and parcel of Social Darwinism as it played out in the United States in the 20th century. "It is better for all the world, if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime, or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind." |
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05/15/2013 06:40:13 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The quote by Holmes, which you said had the correct sentiment and was "right", was part and parcel of Social Darwinism as it played out in the United States in the 20th century. "It is better for all the world, if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime, or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind." |
The difference is that I was only citing the fact that he was indeed right about the sad truth that an unfortunate number of the unwanted babies do actually grow up to be criminals, and a general drain on society. There are many exceptions, some notable, but the trend is clear.
As for the idea of forced sterilization, it's equivalent to forced abortion.
I don't advocate either, but I equally abhor the proposal that neither should be provided upon request, and that we should make the decision as a society, instead of on a case-per basis. I know you think we should all be forced to live under Christian doctrine, but I don't think anything other than full liberty and freedom is really acceptable.
Message edited by author 2013-05-15 18:41:10. |
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05/15/2013 06:48:08 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by Cory:
...but I don't think anything other than full liberty and freedom is really acceptable. |
The term "full liberty and freedom" is meaningless other than to imply "the way I want". We have many restrictions to our "full liberty" and we are only free within the constraints of society. Your arguments lack substance. |
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05/15/2013 06:56:56 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Cory:
...but I don't think anything other than full liberty and freedom is really acceptable. |
The term "full liberty and freedom" is meaningless other than to imply "the way I want". We have many restrictions to our "full liberty" and we are only free within the constraints of society. Your arguments lack substance. |
How much pot do you smoke? Or do you just have some really awful selective memory disorder?
We've went over this at least twice now in different threads. I definitely dislike most of the restrictions on freedom and liberty. There are some that make fine sense, but ones that are of this nature are abhorrent, plain and simple. If that means I'm being arbitrary, then so be it.
You can say my arguments lack substance, but I suspect your opinion on this might simple be due to your amazing ability to continuously ignore reality - but go ahead, pretend that you're doing something great by bringing forth laws that will ensure the birth of legions of unwanted and neglected children, you can pretend they'll all have happy little Christmas dinners and will be taught how to swim and ride a bike by someone who knows their name. Whatever helps you sleep at night. |
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05/15/2013 07:02:59 PM · #64 |
| And, thus, the curtain closes on another day of Masterpiece Theater. |
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05/15/2013 07:10:20 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
And, thus, the curtain closes on another day of Masterpiece Theater. |
LOL, as if to illustrate my point about you being off in fantasy land. You have to dismiss my arguments as completely without merit and nothing more than theatrical hysterics in order to enable you to continue on smugly thinking you have the right ideas.
Then again, am I any better? I myself almost always dismiss your arguments as based in religious fantasy and reject your value system as being based on said fantasy. |
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05/15/2013 07:21:54 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
And, thus, the curtain closes on another day of Masterpiece Theater. |
Oh man. Just when I was getting comfy.
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05/15/2013 07:44:15 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
And, thus, the curtain closes on another day of Masterpiece Theater. |
Oh man. Just when I was getting comfy.
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Heh! Glad I missed it, but pass the popcorn anyway... |
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05/15/2013 07:44:48 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
And, thus, the curtain closes on another day of Masterpiece Theater. |
Oh man. Just when I was getting comfy.
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The participation of Alistair Cooke would certainly have lent some needed dignity to the proceedings ... go ahead and cue the cornet solo ... :-) |
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05/15/2013 10:23:14 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
And, thus, the curtain closes on another day of Masterpiece Theater. |
LOL, as if to illustrate my point about you being off in fantasy land. You have to dismiss my arguments as completely without merit and nothing more than theatrical hysterics in order to enable you to continue on smugly thinking you have the right ideas.
Then again, am I any better? I myself almost always dismiss your arguments as based in religious fantasy and reject your value system as being based on said fantasy. |
I dont know. Jason's religious fantasy has lasted much longer than your gut-led, jaded infused, liveleaks.com inspired, L. Ron Hubbard-esque lava gushings. Maybe it's time to abort and start fresh? |
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05/15/2013 10:25:18 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
And, thus, the curtain closes on another day of Masterpiece Theater. |
LOL, as if to illustrate my point about you being off in fantasy land. You have to dismiss my arguments as completely without merit and nothing more than theatrical hysterics in order to enable you to continue on smugly thinking you have the right ideas.
Then again, am I any better? I myself almost always dismiss your arguments as based in religious fantasy and reject your value system as being based on said fantasy. |
I dont know. Jason's religious fantasy has lasted much longer than your gut-led, jaded infused, liveleaks.com inspired, L. Ron Hubbard-esque lava gushings. Maybe it's time to abort and start fresh? |
ROFL. Actually dying of laughter. Awesome. |
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05/15/2013 10:32:47 PM · #71 |
| The funny thing is I haven't mentioned religion once in the conversation. Only Cory, and now yanko, have brought it up. |
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05/15/2013 10:43:28 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The funny thing is I haven't mentioned religion once in the conversation. Only Cory, and now yanko, have brought it up. |
You don't have to. The brand spanking new secular cloak is a dead giveaway. |
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05/15/2013 10:59:04 PM · #73 |
| Cory, I just noticed you're on the front page. So you shot that with one hand while typing with the other?!? Impressive! |
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05/15/2013 11:19:05 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Cory, I just noticed you're on the front page. So you shot that with one hand while typing with the other?!? Impressive! |
Despite the appearance of always being here, it's important to remember that my cell phone has data... :)
Actually, I've driven something like 1600 miles this week alone.
Thanks! ;)
Message edited by author 2013-05-15 23:28:50. |
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05/16/2013 12:05:55 AM · #75 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The funny thing is I haven't mentioned religion once in the conversation. Only Cory, and now yanko, have brought it up. |
You don't have to. The brand spanking new secular cloak is a dead giveaway. |
Be nice now, Richard. On this topic I have been consistent. Go search the other threads on abortion and you'll see I've already laid out a non-religious argument in opposition to abortion.
In a way all that is irrelevant to this thread. I'm not making an argument against abortion (on this thread) nearly as much as I was arguing that the reasons posted here in support of abortion (mainly by Cory) are terrible reasons. Through the whole thread he has skirted around or even directly talked about ideas that are in line with Social Darwinism. Of all the arguments that could be made for abortion, these are among the worst. To say that because a child has unhappiness in her life we are wise enough to judge she is better off not having been born is, to me, quite detestable. That abortion needs to be around because people are going to have unhappy children and we are actually doing the children a favor by snuffing their life early. I pale at the idea. |
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