TPL:THE RESULTS - DPChallenge Forums

04/10/2013 10:54:09 AM · #176

Originally posted by Yandrosxx:

I'm all for using full team comparisons because it obviously compares each team's complete effort. I don't think TPL should be a best 4 comparison. Some folks (and I suspect there are some) may never contribute to the team effort because of the four comparison limitation. It should be a whole team comparison.

no they got that part right, its a team event but you don't want an anchor dragging down a team, that's not fair to the rest of the team and may cause resentment.

you want people to be able to play and attempt to compete but not have any major deficiencies influence the team ability. You want to encourage them and have them play but not have them drag a team down, that's no fun for anyone. throwing out the lowest scores is good this this.

04/10/2013 10:58:03 AM · #177

There are other factors for scoring not just the percentile element.

I do feel your pain about loosing by a very small percentage but it is a bit like holding Manchester Utd to a 0-0 then getting a goal in the 93rd minute ...

04/10/2013 10:59:37 AM · #178

in fact the more i think about it, is the 5% even needed? doesn't the number of entries already weight the placements? if anything the 5% should be added to higher placing entry to weigh down the fact that it didn't have enough entries.

Sony Sonnar FE 2.8 35mm ZA

04/10/2013 11:02:27 AM · #179

I think having all 6 entries count is a good idea and would work..

jagar

Samsung Galaxy S9/S9+

04/10/2013 11:03:26 AM · #180

I believe you think about it too much Mike, I'm starting to wish your team won :-) Lets just have some fun with a ruleset that's already pretty damn fair.

Yandrosxx

Apple iPhone 5

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

04/10/2013 11:09:31 AM · #181

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by Yandrosxx:
I'm all for using full team comparisons because it obviously compares each team's complete effort. I don't think TPL should be a best 4 comparison. Some folks (and I suspect there are some) may never contribute to the team effort because of the four comparison limitation. It should be a whole team comparison.

no they got that part right, its a team event but you don't want an anchor dragging down a team, that's not fair to the rest of the team and may cause resentment.

you want people to be able to play and attempt to compete but not have any major deficiencies influence the team ability. You want to encourage them and have them play but not have them drag a team down, that's no fun for anyone. throwing out the lowest scores is good this this.

Had this exact same thought on the way to work and ultimately decided its a whole team effort and it should be. It falls to the better photographers to pick those people up and for those people to step up. That's what I meant about it stepping up my photography. I've reshot several entries just because I could tell my teammates thought they stunk. Didn't really want to do it, but I did it. I know they have as well, including our better photographers.

All for one and one for all I say.

Asahi 55mm f/1.8 Super-Multi-Coated Takumar, M42 Mount

04/10/2013 11:09:36 AM · #182

Originally posted by jagar:

Lets just have some fun with a ruleset that's already pretty damn fair.

That is the idea and why we are doing it in the first place.. Our team are plum last but I have 5 new friends..

Epsi

Canon EOS-450D Rebel XSi

04/10/2013 11:10:20 AM · #183

Any scoring system will have its pros and cons. Nevertheless, there is always place for improvement and I am keen on making things better within reason. I am glad to receive as many ideas as you can come up with, BUT (there is always a but) think them through before presenting them. Explain them clearly and in detail so we don't waste each other's time. I am willing to discuss them and evaluate their pros and cons.

Let me be clear, as things stand I am coding this part and is not functional to have an endless discussion. So at certain point I will stop the discussion and code a new scoring system. So you have in mind the time scale, I will be extremely busy in the second part of this year so any new coding will have to be done by July at the latest (preferably June).

Things I am keen on pushing forward is to have as many members contributing to the score as possible and a flexible algorithm that can adapt to variations on the number of entries.

CNovack

Canon EOS-600D/T3i Rebel

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS

04/10/2013 11:12:14 AM · #184

Originally posted by MAK:

I think having all 6 entries count is a good idea and would work..

If its not broke don't fix it! I think the standing of only the top 4 counted is a good system. The DPL did it that way as well. MAK, if you implement having all six count that would be detrimental. Sometimes things happen in Life that a team member cannot participate for whatever reason. Case in point, MAK on your team one member did not/was not able to participate that week.

04/10/2013 11:12:30 AM · #185

Originally posted by Epsi:

The scoring system is fine mate seriously I think it is fair ...

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

04/10/2013 11:18:17 AM · #186

Originally posted by jagar:

I believe you think about it too much Mike, I'm starting to wish your team won :-) Lets just have some fun with a ruleset that's already pretty damn fair.

no, its good it happened, this is the first trial, i'm pointing out what i consider to be a flaw. its only for discussion to possibly improve the system, please don't take its as complaining.

and for the record i am adamantly opposed to having the entire team count. that is going to cause for some rifts internally on teams, especially if certain members are taking it seriously and some arent. if you do that you better allow people to pick their teammates, just some advice :)

i'd rather leave everything as is if it means revising that portion of it.

Yandrosxx

Apple iPhone 5

04/10/2013 11:25:47 AM · #187

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by jagar:
I believe you think about it too much Mike, I'm starting to wish your team won :-) Lets just have some fun with a ruleset that's already pretty damn fair.

no, its good it happened, this is the first trial, i'm pointing out what i consider to be a flaw. its only for discussion to possibly improve the system, please don't take its as complaining.

and for the record i am adamantly opposed to having the entire team count. that is going to cause for some rifts internally on teams, especially if certain members are taking it seriously and some arent. if you do that you better allow people to pick their teammates, just some advice :)

i'd rather leave everything as is if it means revising that portion of it.

That's a good point. Guess we're just fortunate everyone is taking the time to contribute, but I was on a team in the past that didn't. I remember being irritated.

Cory

Canon EOS-1D Mark IV

Canon EF 85mm f/1.2L II USM

04/10/2013 11:30:13 AM · #188

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by MAK:
The scoring system works, you can't please everyone nor should you try. IMHO.

i agree no scoring system is going to be fair to everyone, i'm only offering a suggestion. its just seems bit out of place that our team got zero points for essentially beating the other teams top three members. of course it is a team event.

sorry if this sound like sour grapes, its not intended to be such, i really like this TPL, its good for the site and good for us, my scores has averaged over a 6 since this started and the effort i'm putting in for TPL is a big reason why, its just discouraging when you have a phenomenal team week and get nullified by a technicality :).

i just question if a scoring system that is more fair exists. if not then so be it, but it should at least be explored to see if there is one.

Don't worry - we will be changing it at least some before the next round, and suggestions (make sure they are indeed suggestions or requests) are very welcome.

We may or may not actually implement, but everyone has good points to make here.

Mike - in this case I see four ways to improve the system potentially that will be thrown into the idea pot:

1. Percentile delta margin based on number of entries - a challenge with 20 entries has a 10% margin - 50 entries goes down to 5% - at 100 it's 2% and at 200 1%
~~2. Entire Team Counts~~ - No good - anchor theory
~~3. Use actual team member percentile scores to calculate, no intermediary translation~~ - also shite. :)
4. Ribbon Bonus

--

None of these are a given, but they ARE all possible. Remember though - this is a dictatorship - it may not be named VENSORDOME, but a dictatorship it is. :) Fortunately we're rather friendly dictators. ;)

..

ETA: Read the rest of the thread, and I think that a Ribbon Bonus is still a great idea, as well as a variable percentile.

Message edited by author 2013-04-10 11:36:15.

Cory

Canon EOS-1D Mark IV

Canon EF 85mm f/1.2L II USM

04/10/2013 11:41:18 AM · #189

I'd also like to point out that during the next season choosing your teammates wisely is going to be much more important, even without a change to the scoring system. ;)

Message edited by author 2013-04-10 11:42:03.

Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS

04/10/2013 11:45:17 AM · #190

Originally posted by CNovack:

Originally posted by MAK:
I think having all 6 entries count is a good idea and would work..

If its not broke don't fix it! I think the standing of only the top 4 counted is a good system. The DPL did it that way as well. MAK, if you implement having all six count that would be detrimental. Sometimes things happen in Life that a team member cannot participate for whatever reason. Case in point, MAK on your team one member did not/was not able to participate that week.

To be fair, I was the one that insisted on only having top 4 count and firmly stand by it... I have no doubt in my mind that we will NOT change the score system so dramatically, there is not point, it works.

Having 6 count is a good idea and would work but I cannot. See it happening so please do not worry we have the majority's best interest at heart and also trying to find a loophole that would get DOMIN-8 off the bottom.

glad2badad

Apple iPhone 16 Pro

Lensbaby Sweet 35 Optic

04/10/2013 11:46:22 AM · #191

Originally posted by Yandrosxx:

... I don't think TPL should be a best 4 comparison. ...

I disagree. Using the top 4 out of 6 works well, allows flexibility, and so far has seen (I'm fairly certain) contributions from all of our team members. Plus the added .5 pt bonus for all participating in a given week allows everyone to contribute every week regardless of score.

Strikeslip

Canon EOS-5D

04/10/2013 11:49:44 AM · #192

Originally posted by Cory:

...4. Ribbon Bonus...

Wouldn't this just further separate The Rich from The Poor?

glad2badad

Apple iPhone 16 Pro

Lensbaby Sweet 35 Optic

04/10/2013 11:51:46 AM · #193

Originally posted by Strikeslip:

Originally posted by Cory:
...4. Ribbon Bonus...

Wouldn't this just further separate The Rich from The Poor?

Good point!

Epsi

Canon EOS-450D Rebel XSi

Asahi 55mm f/1.8 Super-Multi-Coated Takumar, M42 Mount

04/10/2013 11:56:29 AM · #194

Originally posted by Cory:

4. Ribbon Bonus

ETA: Read the rest of the thread, and I think that a Ribbon Bonus is still a great idea

Disagree, Ribbons recipients are already recognized elsewhere. TPL should be about team effort not collecting stars, members should contribute equally to the score.

PennyStreet

Olympus OM-D E-M1

Olympus 17mm f/1.8 M.Zuiko

04/10/2013 12:01:00 PM · #195

Originally posted by MAK:

I think having all 6 entries count is a good idea and would work..

I like the incentive of trying to help the team count for score. So unless using all 6 members scores is a more fair way to play, I like that the top 4 count.

Paul

Leica SL

Voigtlander Ultron 35mm f/1.7 Aspherical MF Wide Angle - Black

04/10/2013 03:20:02 PM · #196

Variable percentages - given people will be matched across different challenges, so what percentage will count? The higher?

I've changed mind about it - stick with 5%, we been assuming that it is unfair to only get 80% for 6th (or whatever), but Michael has a point, with 200 entries that 6th, would just as likely to have been 40th and still get that sort of percentage as remain at 6th and get a higher percentage.

Yandrosxx

Apple iPhone 5

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

04/10/2013 03:24:54 PM · #197

Originally posted by Paul:

Not sure I know the answer to this one, but is the 5% margin applied to entries that were entered into the same challenge? If so, I think that should change.

But, otherwise, I think the margin should be applied when comparing entries across different challenges. And I don't think a flat 5% is a bad idea.

All of this discussion just tells me there are pros and cons to each suggested approach none of which are all that much better than the other.

In short, after thinking too much about this, the current approach seems fair enough and I do like how it makes each team members contribution really count. In short, the better photographers can't carry a team forward. Everyone has to do well.

04/10/2013 03:29:13 PM · #198

Originally posted by Paul:

i was thinking come up with some sort of algorithm to add a percentage to an entry in a lower participated challenge, sort of like handicapping, and remove the 5%. you could their the factors based on the difference between two challenges.

for instance if there is a 100 entry difference in participation between two challenges, add a percentage, like 10% to the score from the less participated one. if there is a 50 vote difference use 5%, if its 10 entry difference use 1%. the factors would have to be worked out to be fair. those are just numbers for discussion. you have to use some sort of exponential increase to ensure that challenges where the difference in minor don't get adjust and those that are far apart get a larger handicap.

i've been trying to work out something as an example, but its not easy.

Message edited by author 2013-04-10 15:29:50.

bhuge

Canon EOS-550D Rebel T2i

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

04/10/2013 04:05:44 PM · #199

Originally posted by mike_311:

I'm late to the game here and haven't read all the replies, but why would the participation amount matter at all? The entire point of using the percentage is to get an accurate evaluation based off your peers.

Even if someone is in the top ten with a tenth place entry they will only have a 45% placement if there are only 18 entries, but 45% is still what they deserve because their image sucked compared to the majority of entries. Ribbons and high placements are easier to achieve when there are less entries, and the percentage drop reflects that.

It's all relative.