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03/10/2013 02:21:22 PM · #1 |
In my seemingly never ending quest to find the perfect mix of image quality, size, and weight in a camera, I've been reading a lot about the Sigma DP2 Merril.
A couple of years ago I sold all my big Canon gear (5DII and several lenses) and dove into the Olympus/Panasonic Micro 4/3. I am very happy with the system and the overall image quality. However, I've been looking for the best image quality in a small package.
the cameras I've looked at are the Sigma DP2 Merril, the Fuji X100, the Sony RX100, and I own a Panasonic Lumix LX5.
I found a decent deal on a lightly used Sigma so I picked it up. I may be on to something here.
I took the Sigma out yesterday on a trip to one of our nicer garden shops (also a feed store). Here are a couple of images. Not a very scientific test, but interesting nonetheless.
Click on the "View full-sized image" link to see the most detail.
On the left is the full frame image and one the right is a 100% crop.
The Sigma use a Foveon sensor. Google it if you want more information. Long story short, it is like no other sensor on the market. Because of the design of the sensor it does not use an anti-aliasing filter to compensate for the pixel interpolation.
this image was shot in RAW and exported with the RAW defaults. There has been not additional editing and no sharpening applied to either the full image or the cropped image.
Same with this one
The full image (more or less) is on the bottom, the middle and upper images are 100% crops taken from different areas of the photo.
Again, no editing and no sharpening.
As for the camera, it is a fixed lens, 30mm on an APS-C size sensor (45mm FF equiv.) Pretty much a "normal" lens.
It has all the usual exposure modes, bracketing, metering options, sequence options. It even has an interval timer.
As for operation, this is where the Sigam falls short when compared to other compacts. The auto focus is slow, the write time to the card is average, battery life is horrible ( <100 shots per charge), no built in view finder, LCD screen is fixed.
That said, I have never seen OOC images this good from any camera I've ever owned. I am planning on taking the camera to Yosemite in May. This may be my long sought after landscape, hiking camera of choice.
It will not replace my M4/3 gear.
In one review I read, he stated if you treat this like you would using a medium or large format camera in the field in the film days - use a tripod, not for quick action shots, think about the image and how you want to photograph it - it will yield outstanding results.
We'll see. |
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03/10/2013 02:30:51 PM · #2 |
| That's very impressive... |
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03/10/2013 03:17:09 PM · #3 |
Wiki link on the Foveon sensor and how it differs from the Bayer design.
Message edited by author 2013-03-10 15:18:01. |
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03/10/2013 03:34:27 PM · #4 |
| and it gets a nice review on luminous landscape here |
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03/10/2013 04:24:07 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by tnun:
and it gets a nice review on luminous landscape here |
This is the review that got me seriously thinking about getting one. Especially the last few paragraphs.
Quote from the review -
"In the context of the DP2 Merrill the only photographers who are going to be happy with this camera are ones who can ignore its few faults and rejoice in the remarkable image quality that the camera is capable of." |
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03/10/2013 05:02:18 PM · #6 |
I swear by the Foveon sensor. I have a DP1x, DP2, and SD15. My only other digital camera is the Ricoh GRD III -- and it's a dedicated street photography camera. It has a small sensor which is great for zone focusing, and it's discreet. But the IQ is barely acceptable. The Simga cameras are much too fussy for street photography (though I have done it).
I'll be curious to hear your impressions. But to your point, yes, throw all expectations that aren't related to image quality out the window. And do buy an extra battery. |
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03/10/2013 05:11:01 PM · #7 |
Yes to what bvy said. My Sigma is moribund, and though it was my most rarely used camera, whenever I look at one of its better pics I miss it terribly.
Somewhere there is a review that starts out with all the bad things, or the lack of things we have come to expect in a digital camera, and then like a diver shooting up out of the sea with a great treasure in her hand.... |
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03/10/2013 05:40:40 PM · #8 |
| I've followed the Foveon sensor development for years, and own an SD-14. They are capable of some really nice images. The latest sensor is a big step forward. I've always wished that Sigma had Can-ikon resources to put into the development. Love the technology, the cameras it winds up in, always seems like it could have been a bit better.... Live view is a big deal for me. Maybe someday... |
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03/10/2013 05:49:10 PM · #9 |
| I have just picked one up from Sigma have not put it to the test yet but did fire off a few with my light.. Impressive. not keen on the raw converter though. |
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03/10/2013 08:54:55 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by scarbrd:
There has been not additional editing and no sharpening applied to either the full image or the cropped image. |
Yeah, about that... It's known, though not documented, that if you have sharpening set to zero in Sigma Photo Pro (or SPP, the RAW conversion software) that sharpening is still being applied. -0.7 or -0.8 is believed to be the true unsharpened setting. As such, that's where I set the sharpening slider in SPP. I never add additional sharpening to Foveon images.
You should read and join the Sigma forum at DPReview.com. It's easily the most active forum related to Sigma cameras and the Foveon sensor. |
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03/11/2013 09:10:54 AM · #11 |
Originally posted by bvy:
Originally posted by scarbrd:
There has been not additional editing and no sharpening applied to either the full image or the cropped image. |
Yeah, about that... It's known, though not documented, that if you have sharpening set to zero in Sigma Photo Pro (or SPP, the RAW conversion software) that sharpening is still being applied. -0.7 or -0.8 is believed to be the true unsharpened setting. As such, that's where I set the sharpening slider in SPP. I never add additional sharpening to Foveon images.
You should read and join the Sigma forum at DPReview.com. It's easily the most active forum related to Sigma cameras and the Foveon sensor. |
Good to know. Like I said, I left all the adjustments on the defaults. I'll dial back the sharpness sliders a bit and see the results.
Thanks for the forum suggestion, I was looking for one. Surprising there isn't more chatter about the Foveon and Sigmas on the web.
Originally posted by MAK:
I have just picked one up from Sigma have not put it to the test yet but did fire off a few with my light.. Impressive. not keen on the raw converter though. |
Yeah, SPP isn't quite as elegant as Lightroom or Aperture, and the change in workflow will be a hassle. From what I've read, I don't think we'll be seeing the Adobe and Apple RAW converters supporting the Foveon for a while. Apparently, it's just too much of a different sensor and not in enough cameras to make it worth their while to support.
The latest version of SPP seems to be pretty good. I read some good stuff about the new monochrome RAW editor. So it sounds like Sigma is committed to making the software viable to support the sensors.
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03/11/2013 07:20:35 PM · #12 |
| A new article today on luminous landscape about the DP3. |
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03/12/2013 03:05:12 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by Ann:
A new article today on luminous landscape about the DP3. |
Looks like a worthy companion to the DP2 Merril. The DP1 (wide angle) is said to suffer some image degradation on the edges compared to the center of the image. Something not so on the other 2 models.
This idea of seperate cameras for different focal lengths reminds of the photojournalists that used Rolliflex fixed lens TLRs before 35mm became the standard. There were wide angle, normal and telephoto versions of those as well. |
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03/12/2013 04:25:27 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by ambaker:
I've followed the Foveon sensor development for years, and own an SD-14. They are capable of some really nice images. The latest sensor is a big step forward. I've always wished that Sigma had Can-ikon resources to put into the development |
They may just be willing to wait another few years for the basic patents on the Foveon technology to expire -- those sensors have been around for a while. I kind of surprised neither has come out with a model which uses it, just to test the market. |
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03/12/2013 04:48:37 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by ambaker:
I've followed the Foveon sensor development for years, and own an SD-14. They are capable of some really nice images. The latest sensor is a big step forward. I've always wished that Sigma had Can-ikon resources to put into the development |
They may just be willing to wait another few years for the basic patents on the Foveon technology to expire -- those sensors have been around for a while. I kind of surprised neither has come out with a model which uses it, just to test the market. |
I think they shopped the sensor around a few years back, definitely Nikon, and they refused it. They had no takers. And the sensor has had problems with issues that were supposed to be it's strong points, like moire, inaccurate colors, especially reds, and high noise levels at high isos. I was also reading where there is in fact interpolation going on, but differently than what Bayer sensors do. Because of the different absorptions of RGB wavelengths through the sensor's layers, in order to get the reds, blues and greens have to be subtracted, then in order to get the greens blues have to be subtracted. Sounds to be processing intensive and may be one of the reasons for slow performance and poor battery life.
The DP series is not a very flexible system if you have to buy a separate and expensive camera for each focal length you want to use. And while the attached lenses are very good, they are slow for primes. Faster lenses would help with the sluggish AF. I think Sigma is stirring too many pots. |
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03/12/2013 06:50:47 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by ambaker:
I've followed the Foveon sensor development for years, and own an SD-14. They are capable of some really nice images. The latest sensor is a big step forward. I've always wished that Sigma had Can-ikon resources to put into the development |
They may just be willing to wait another few years for the basic patents on the Foveon technology to expire -- those sensors have been around for a while. I kind of surprised neither has come out with a model which uses it, just to test the market. |
I think they shopped the sensor around a few years back, definitely Nikon, and they refused it. They had no takers. And the sensor has had problems with issues that were supposed to be it's strong points, like moire, inaccurate colors, especially reds, and high noise levels at high isos. I was also reading where there is in fact interpolation going on, but differently than what Bayer sensors do. Because of the different absorptions of RGB wavelengths through the sensor's layers, in order to get the reds, blues and greens have to be subtracted, then in order to get the greens blues have to be subtracted. Sounds to be processing intensive and may be one of the reasons for slow performance and poor battery life.
The DP series is not a very flexible system if you have to buy a separate and expensive camera for each focal length you want to use. And while the attached lenses are very good, they are slow for primes. Faster lenses would help with the sluggish AF. I think Sigma is stirring too many pots. |
You're probably right about the extra processing and battery life.
As for being a flexible system, that's exactly the point. In order to achieve the superior IQ they match the lens with the sensor. I don't think a faster lens would help with the focus speed. I just don't think it is a priority for them.
As for the expense, you could buy all three cameras for far less than a Canon 5DIII and 3 primes. and the 3 camera kit would take up less room and weigh less.
I'm not saying there wouldn't be limitations, of course there are. But for high quality IQ, relative expense isn't one of them. |
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03/13/2013 04:13:30 AM · #17 |
It'll be interesting to see if real world usage will be a rewarding or frustrating experience for you and if you feel the results are worth the effort. There's a learning curve, huge file sizes with long write and transfer times, white balance issues, etc. May depend on how large you print. Small print sizes may not showcase its qualities enough. With images this detailed significant cropping to obtain telephoto focal lengths won't affect image quality too severely.
I am interested in seeing how the sensor deals with high dynamic range landscapes, and since bright light conditions are its forte, I'll be curious as to how easily the LCD is viewed in that light, normally an achilles heel for most LCD screens.
I'm hoping for a m43rds Foveon camera from Sigma (with much reduced MP count), but it's doubtful, as this would compete too much with the DP series, and Oly/Pany probably won't allow them in to their exclusive camera club. |
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03/13/2013 09:18:59 AM · #18 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
It'll be interesting to see if real world usage will be a rewarding or frustrating experience for you and if you feel the results are worth the effort. There's a learning curve, huge file sizes with long write and transfer times, white balance issues, etc. May depend on how large you print. Small print sizes may not showcase its qualities enough. With images this detailed significant cropping to obtain telephoto focal lengths won't affect image quality too severely.
I am interested in seeing how the sensor deals with high dynamic range landscapes, and since bright light conditions are its forte, I'll be curious as to how easily the LCD is viewed in that light, normally an achilles heel for most LCD screens.
I'm hoping for a m43rds Foveon camera from Sigma (with much reduced MP count), but it's doubtful, as this would compete too much with the DP series, and Oly/Pany probably won't allow them in to their exclusive camera club. |
I am going out this weekend to shoot some landscapes in the Texas hill country, then to Yosemite in May. should be a good show case for all the things you mention. I'll update this thread with pics and my experience.
I've read on a coule of 44/3 forums that Foveon may be in their future, particularly for Olympus. Frankly, I don't see it happening with the current technology. I really like m4/3 but one of it's shortcomings in high ISO when compared to larger sensor cameras. Slow write speeds and mediocre high ISO images isn't going to help at this point. Maybe the slightly smaller sensor or the next generation of Foveon will change that. There is a new PEN camera coming out in a month or so. We'll see.
I do wish the LCD could swivel a bit. I like shooting low to the ground at times. The quality of the LCD is fine. I've zoomed in on some images while reviewing them and it holds up all the way to the maximum magnification. I haven't tried it in bright sunlight yet. Should be able to this weekend.
I agree about the small print and web viewing sizes. The real difference will be in the large prints. I have an Epson 3880 printer that can print fairly large. I am looking to be able to get gallery level quality up to 20x30" or larger. My large prints look really good from the Oly E-M5 and from the Canon 5DII I used to have, but they still don't have that medium/large format feel to them at the large print sizes. That is what I am looking for, although I know it will be a very small percentage of the prints I make. I want that quality when I want it.
as I said before, I have no intention of using this camera exclusively. The Oly and lenses I have for it are great.
I may try to do some comparisons between the Sigma and the Oly E-M5with the Leica 25mm 1.4. I expect the Sigma to come out on top, but the delta between the 2 will be interesting.
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03/13/2013 12:46:57 PM · #19 |
Does anyone know how to pronounce Foveon? This is driving me crazy.
Anyway, I'm intrigued by the camera and its potential. I'm looking forward to hearing your opinion, especially when you print with it. |
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03/13/2013 01:02:50 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by Ann:
Does anyone know how to pronounce Foveon? |
I always assumed it was FOE-vee-on ... |
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03/13/2013 03:35:26 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Ann:
Does anyone know how to pronounce Foveon? |
I always assumed it was FOE-vee-on ... |
I believe you are correct. |
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03/13/2013 07:26:13 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by scarbrd:
I've read on a coule of 44/3 forums that Foveon may be in their future, particularly for Olympus... |
I don't see Oly or Panasonic cameras with the Foveon sensor. Olympus is now using Sony sensors and with the success they've had with the M-5 I don't think they'd change. Besides, Sony is now their largest share holder and I imagine there's going to be sharing of technology. Olympus needs a good sensor and Sony needs lens design and manufacturing know how. The Olympus/Sony business relationship has a history.
Panasonic have their own fabs, and have recently put a lot of money into building a new one somewhere in east Asia, Malaysia(?). Last month they also announced a highly sensitive new sensor technology they are developing using micro color splitters. Sounds a bit like the Foveon in that it takes advantage of the different wavelengths of light.
So the only hope of getting a Foveon sensor into a m43rds camera is with Sigma, but it's a slim hope.
I'm looking forward to seeing your results and hearing of your experiences with the DP. I hope you have a powerful computer :)
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Message edited by author 2013-03-18 10:51:09. |
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03/17/2013 06:35:03 PM · #23 |
OK, back from the first real outing with the new camera.
I few comments on working with the camera
1. LCD in the bright sunshine is very difficult to work with. Critical focus is all but impossible since you can hardly see the image even when magnified. Critical composition is even challenging in very bright conditions. Sigma does make a glass view finder that would help with the composition, but not for the focusing. This camera desperately needs an electronic view finder, even an external one like Olympus makes for the PEN series.
2. An articulating LCD would be nice, too. This could help with the bright light shooting. But I also like to shoot low to the ground at times. A fixed LCD makes this a bit of a pain.
3. Write times are indeed slow (well documented). I was probably pushing the limits as I was shooting RAW+jpg and auto-bracketing. So every shot wrote 4 files to the card. A bit taxing, for sure. I probably won't need auto-bracketing as much since this camera has such excellent dynamic range.
4. Battery life wasn't too bad considering the way I was shooting. I did go through 2 full batteries each day. I have 4, so that shouldn't be an issue very often.
5. Most of the time I used a tripod as recommended. I did shot some hand held walk around stuff, too. The focus isn't lightning fast, but it didn't get in the way either.
6. The editing software, Sigma Photo Pro is OK spec and feature-wise but it is slow to make adjustments and crashed often. I found keeping the folder size to 100 images or less made it a little more stable, but it still crashed occasionally, both on my MacBook Pro (quad-core and 8 GB RAM) and my PowerMac (2-quad Core and 14GB RAM). I really hope that Adobe and Apple will eventually support the Sigma cameras, but it may be a while.
That said, I am really happy with the results.
This one is my favorite form the trip. We stumbled on a shop that restores classic cars and specializes in Thunderbirds (we have a classic T-Bird, so this was a really cool find!) After talking with the owner for a while, he let us into the back lot to see all the junked cars. Truly amazing. The time of day wasn't ideal, but still yielded some good results.
The top image is full frame, the bottom is a 100% crop. I backed off the default sharpening as  bvy suggests that Sigma is adding some sharpening by default. Still very impressive, IMO. Click on "View full-size image" for the best quality.
This was was taken just after dawn. I love the morning light. I think the camera captured it quite well. I did very little editing for color and tone. Mostly I brought out some shadow detail in the editing.
Again, the top is full frame, the bottom is 100% crop.
These 3 were hand held snap walking around town and in a garden shop. These are straight form the camera jpgs with no editing except for size.
  
I am going to print the car and barn pictures to see how they hold up to large printing. I'll post back my thoughts on that here later, as well as post some other images as I get them edited.
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03/17/2013 08:00:22 PM · #24 |
Thanks for reporting back. The images look good! I'm so used to bad viewfinders now, that I probably couldn't have forewarned you about that.
Sounds like battery life is improved. My DP2 battery barely gets me through a lunch hour.
The software has always been flaky, and again, I can't offer much because I never upgraded from SPP 3.5.2 (all later versions have compulsory noise reduction for ISO >=400).
I think I'm seeing some purplish cast in the first image -- primaryily in the shadow areas around and under the car. At first glance I thought chroma noise, but not at ISO 100. Too much fill light? Just an observation since I know you're looking closely at the results. Overall these look really good.
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03/17/2013 09:19:50 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by bvy:
I think I'm seeing some purplish cast in the first image -- primaryily in the shadow areas around and under the car. At first glance I thought chroma noise, but not at ISO 100. Too much fill light? Just an observation since I know you're looking closely at the results. Overall these look really good. |
The shadow under the car is probably just me trying to be clever and bring out some shadow detail. As you can see, the sun is almost directly overhead. Not the best light, for sure.
I duplicated the base layer and then played with the shadow/highlight adjustment on the bottom layer. Then, with both layers active, I used the eraser tool at 20% opacity to erase some of the top layer shadow areas to show the adjusted layer below (in just the shadow area).
I was actually pretty pleased that the could get some detail out of the very harsh shadow. I'll work on the purplish cast before I print it.
thanks for the input! |
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