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12/19/2012 04:53:07 PM · #451 |
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by Nullix:
I attest there is a good creator of our universe because you see this as a travesty. If we were just random beings, you would chalk it up to your existence. It's because we have a greater purpose that you react to such a travesty. |
How does this prove there's a God? You could literally replace "good creator of our universe" with anything and your logic still holds. All it proved is that some humans have morals and empathy, two things not exclusive to religion or believing in a God. |
I thought I could tackle this and I've written many responses. However, it isn't as straight forward as I thought and involves assumptions that I'd have to build.
Sorry, I won't be able to defend this. |
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12/19/2012 04:56:40 PM · #452 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Can't remember if we've talked Westboro in this thread or not. Just posting this for future reference (knowing they seem to come up every tenth post). It was actually pretty interesting. Now we know Westboro isn't evil because they are Christian, they are evil because they are lawyers! ;)
How can you donate to Westboro Baptist? |
That's absolutely hysterical, in a bad, bad way...
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What happens when the WBC gets sued for being so obnoxious?
A nice group called the Phelps-Chartered represents the Westboro Baptist Church in court.
What is Phelps-Chartered?
Phelps-Chartered is a legal firm started in 1964 by Fred Phelps. In its early days, the firm supposedly took on clients that no other law group wanted - mostly cases involving African-Americans. This caused a stir for the Phelps family in not-quite-ready for desegregation Kansas - possibly giving them their first taste of what it was like to be controversial. Over the years, the Phelps-Chartered grew to include several of his children. The current attorneys of the Phelps-Chartered include Jonathan B. Phelps, Shirley L. Phelps-Roper, Rachel I. Hockenbarger, Rebekah A. Phelps-Davis and Margie J. Phelps. Eleven of the thirteen Phelps children are lawyers, with the exceptions being Mark and Nate, who have been estranged from the family.
Okay, they're all lawyers. What's that got to do with anything?
There's a lovely little law called the Civil Rights Attorney’s Fees Award Act of 1976. Sometimes referred to as "Section 1988", this law allows a federal court to award reasonable attorneys' fees to a prevailing party in certain civil rights cases.
So wait... what?
When the Phelps-Chartered law group wins a case defending the Westboro Baptist Church in civil rights cases, the federal government pays them an attorney's fee because of this law.
So the federal government pays for the Westboro Baptist Church to travel all over the place and be obnoxious?
Pretty much.
That is ridiculous. Just when I think they can't get any worse, it turns out that they're lawyers too.
It is my somewhat humble opinion that these people aren't really as crazy as they look. Their tactics are so shocking and inhuman, most people can't (or won't) see past that. The protests and the picket lines are a front – they do it to get attention and for the money. Maybe the Westboro Baptist Church and the Phelps family really does believe all the crazy things written on their picket signs, but there is also the possibility that they're just conning everyone in one of the most shocking money-making schemes the US has ever seen.
Message edited by author 2012-12-19 16:57:44. |
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12/19/2012 06:00:18 PM · #453 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Can't remember if we've talked Westboro in this thread or not. Just posting this for future reference (knowing they seem to come up every tenth post). It was actually pretty interesting. Now we know Westboro isn't evil because they are Christian, they are evil because they are lawyers! ;)
How can you donate to Westboro Baptist? |
Wow. That really is nuts. Very interesting indeed.
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12/20/2012 12:34:29 AM · #454 |
Originally posted by rooum:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Can't remember if we've talked Westboro in this thread or not. Just posting this for future reference (knowing they seem to come up every tenth post). It was actually pretty interesting. Now we know Westboro isn't evil because they are Christian, they are evil because they are lawyers! ;)
How can you donate to Westboro Baptist? |
Wow. That really is nuts. Very interesting indeed. |
Any other sources on this... too... tired... to... fact... check.
I want to share this with the world so badly but I'll wait until I'm awake enough to properly check it out. ;)
" but there is also the possibility that they're just conning everyone in one of the most shocking money-making schemes the US has ever seen. "
Never thought that would actually be the preferable interpretation, but it is. It actually is. |
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12/22/2012 11:49:22 AM · #455 |
| I just watched the BBC documentary on Westboro last night. It was sad honestly. I'm sad for their children, even the adult ones. They were told to hate so young, and told they were doing people a kindness and were repaid with hate and being ostracized, the effect being that the children in that family don't make friends and have no outside influences or support. I could tell the documentarian was really getting to one of the young women and she didn't know how to handle his questions... |
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12/22/2012 12:19:35 PM · #456 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Any other sources on this... too... tired... to... fact... check. |
Well, it's a fact that the church is run by Fred Phelps, and the law firm is chock-a-block full of Phelpses... |
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03/07/2013 12:18:34 PM · #457 |
I didn't really know which religion thread to put this in, but I found it interesting.......
Professor : You are a Christian, aren’t you, son ?
Student : Yes, sir.
Professor: So, you believe in GOD ?
Student : Absolutely, sir.
Professor : Is GOD good ?
Student : Sure.
Professor: Is GOD all powerful ?
Student : Yes.
Professor: My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to GOD to heal him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But GOD didn’t. How is this GOD good then? Hmm?
(Student was silent.)
Professor: You can’t answer, can you ? Let’s start again, young fella. Is GOD good?
Student : Yes.
Professor: Is satan good ?
Student : No.
Professor: Where does satan come from ?
Student : From â€Â¦ GOD â€Â¦
Professor: That’s right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?
Student : Yes.
Professor: Evil is everywhere, isn’t it ? And GOD did make everything. Correct?
Student : Yes.
Professor: So who created evil ?
(Student did not answer.)
Professor: Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things exist in the world, don’t they?
Student : Yes, sir.
Professor: So, who created them ?
(Student had no answer.)
Professor: Science says you have 5 Senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Tell me, son, have you ever seen GOD?
Student : No, sir.
Professor: Tell us if you have ever heard your GOD?
Student : No , sir.
Professor: Have you ever felt your GOD, tasted your GOD, smelt your GOD? Have you ever had any sensory perception of GOD for that matter?
Student : No, sir. I’m afraid I haven’t.
Professor: Yet you still believe in Him?
Student : Yes.
Professor : According to Empirical, Testable, Demonstrable Protocol, Science says your GOD doesn’t exist. What do you say to that, son?
Student : Nothing. I only have my faith.
Professor: Yes, faith. And that is the problem Science has.
Student : Professor, is there such a thing as heat?
Professor: Yes.
Student : And is there such a thing as cold?
Professor: Yes.
Student : No, sir. There isn’t.
Student : Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don’t have anything called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we can’t go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.
Student : What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?
Professor: Yes. What is night if there isn’t darkness?
Student : You’re wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light. But if you have no light constantly, you have nothing and its called darkness, isn’t it? In reality, darkness isn’t. If it is, well you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn’t you?
Professor: So what is the point you are making, young man ?
Student : Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.
Professor: Flawed ? Can you explain how?
Student : Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is life and then there is death, a good GOD and a bad GOD. You are viewing the concept of GOD as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, Science can’t even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing.
Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it. Now tell me, Professor, do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?
Professor: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of course, I do.
Student : Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?
(The Professor shook his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the argument was going.)
Student : Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor. Are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher?
Student : Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor’s brain?
Student : Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor’s brain, felt it, touched or smelt it? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established Rules of Empirical, Stable, Demonstrable Protocol, Science says that you have no brain, sir. With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?
(The room was silent. The Professor stared at the student, his face unfathomable.)
Professor: I guess you’ll have to take them on faith, son.
Student : That is it sir â€Â¦ Exactly ! The link between man & GOD is FAITH. That is all that keeps things alive and moving.
Obviously there are holes in the discussion, but I thought it was cute.
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03/07/2013 02:16:14 PM · #458 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Obviously there are holes in the discussion, but I thought it was cute. |
It is cute, but the holes are numerous. :)
From the scientific side not only have we observed electricity and magnetism, and measured them too, but now evolution has been seen in action many times, the most recent is the down-sizing of many species of fish due to fishing pressures and the advantages of remaining small. |
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03/07/2013 02:30:19 PM · #459 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Obviously there are holes in the discussion, but I thought it was cute. |
It is cute, but the holes are numerous. :)
From the scientific side not only have we observed electricity and magnetism, and measured them too, but now evolution has been seen in action many times, the most recent is the down-sizing of many species of fish due to fishing pressures and the advantages of remaining small. |
Right now I'm listening to a discussion about how certain bacteria have evolved to be resistant to all known antibiotics.
Oh yeah, and it's easy enough to take a look a the professor's brain and make sure it's really there.TEACHER: Well Johnny, I'm waiting.
JOHNNY: But I already answered — I shook my head.
TEACHER: Well, you didn't expect me to hear it rattle all the way up here, did you?
Message edited by author 2013-03-07 14:33:27. |
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03/07/2013 03:30:50 PM · #460 |
| The story, I believe was edited and appended to add the last two interactions which don't fit the pattern. Originally it takes the form of a theocidy and does bear a valid point that evil is different if we view it as a thing in and of itself or if it is merely a state of lacking good. Don't miss the point (which Cory and Paul didn't respond to in their response). |
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03/07/2013 03:33:54 PM · #461 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Just when I thought the previous long running religious debates had finally died, never to be seen on the main page again. *sigh* |
The christian lady next door to the atheist
There was a Christian lady who lived next door to an atheist. Every day, when the lady prayed, the atheist guy could hear her. He thought to himself, "She sure is crazy, praying all the time like that. Doesn't she know there isn't a God?"
Many times while she was praying, he would go to her house and harass her, saying "Lady, why do you pray all the time? Don't you know there is no God?" But she kept on praying.
One day, she ran out of groceries. As usual, she was praying to the Lord explaining her situation and thanking Him for what He was gonna do. As usual, the atheist heard her praying and thought to himself, "Humph! I'll fix her."
He went to the grocery store, bought a whole bunch of groceries, took them to her house, dropped them off on the front porch, rang the door bell and then hid in the bushes to see what she would do. When she opened the door and saw the groceries, she began to praise the Lord with all her heart, jumping, singing and shouting everywhere! The atheist then jumped out of the bushes and told her, "You ol' crazy lady, God didn't buy you those groceries, I bought those groceries!"
At hearing this, she broke out and started running down the street, shouting and praising the Lord.
When he finally caught her, he asked what her problem was. She said, "I knew the Lord would provide me with some groceries, but I didn't know he was gonna make the devil pay for them!"
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03/07/2013 06:30:26 PM · #462 |
Originally posted by Cory:
...now evolution has been seen in action many times, the most recent is the down-sizing of many species of fish due to fishing pressures and the advantages of remaining small. |
Just for the record, there's really no shortage of examples of "micro" evolution like that, where we can watch a given species acquire different characteristics within our observational timespan. Those who dispute the reality of evolution like to claim that there's no evidence whatsoever of "macro" evolution, of "dinosaurs becoming birds" or whatever... |
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03/07/2013 06:35:44 PM · #463 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Cory:
...now evolution has been seen in action many times, the most recent is the down-sizing of many species of fish due to fishing pressures and the advantages of remaining small. |
Just for the record, there's really no shortage of examples of "micro" evolution like that, where we can watch a given species acquire different characteristics within our observational timespan. Those who dispute the reality of evolution like to claim that there's no evidence whatsoever of "macro" evolution, of "dinosaurs becoming birds" or whatever... |
They simply fail to appreciate geological time scales. ;) |
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03/07/2013 06:37:22 PM · #464 |
Originally posted by coronamv:
When he finally caught her, he asked what her problem was. She said, "I knew the Lord would provide me with some groceries, but I didn't know he was gonna make the devil pay for them!" |
ROFL, about right. ;) |
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03/07/2013 08:09:47 PM · #465 |
| So are all the atheists in these apocryphal stories the sort of people who go out of their way to spite their neighbors for no reason because they are possessed by the devil? |
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03/07/2013 10:16:32 PM · #466 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
So are all the atheists in these apocryphal stories the sort of people who go out of their way to spite their neighbors for no reason because they are possessed by the devil? |
Some are good enough at it they don't need the devil's help... |
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03/07/2013 10:28:14 PM · #467 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
So are all the atheists in these apocryphal stories the sort of people who go out of their way to spite their neighbors for no reason because they are possessed by the devil? |
I feel the point of the story was neither to show one was correct over the other, but the differences in beliefs. Yes even an Athiest believes in nothing. I personally believe in evolution and am a Christian. Nothing says life can only evolve without a God. It is the scientist who lacks the knowledge or technology to proof today what could be proved in the future. Remember the Earth was flat and you where not a witch if you drowned. |
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03/07/2013 11:27:49 PM · #468 |
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03/08/2013 11:35:54 AM · #469 |
My day is completely booked so it's probably a bit unfair of me to post and then leave. I thought the link was interesting, but, honestly, from MY perspective it's a little saddening. In my eyes it would be analagous to a place set up to enjoy the smell of a well prepared steak. People would come in and smell the butter and aroma of the juices and say, "wow, doesn't that smell wonderful!" but never get to experience the actual steak. We would be worshipping a ghostly visage instead of the real thing.
My own opinion would say that our appreciation for the numinous is meant to point us toward something. It misunderstands and cheapens our awe to think of it as an illusory spandrel of evolution in our brain. That's just my own opinion though so I'm not writing to refute those who would hold as such.
I remember seeing articles a year ago about the guy who wanted to build the atheist "temple" in France. |
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03/08/2013 12:59:55 PM · #470 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
So are all the atheists in these apocryphal stories the sort of people who go out of their way to spite their neighbors for no reason because they are possessed by the devil? |
Nah! The believers just need atheist extremists to be the bad guys so that their stories have a happy ending. Atheists don't really care so much to refute God's existence. What's in in it for them? "You believe in God, good for you, I don't, so what?" The believer has to dangle the carrot to build the flock, the atheist just goes to the beach at the end of the week......8~)
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03/08/2013 01:09:03 PM · #471 |
I don't need buildings to be awed, in fact, they rarely do much for me.
I DO however still need to be awed, that much is very true - it's almost a point of jealousy.
Thank goodness I have nature, it rarely fails to awe me, especially during the more impressively violent moments. |
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03/08/2013 02:56:52 PM · #472 |
I read it a few times, but I keep on getting stuck on, "... religion still continues to generate debate, particularly when it comes into contact with science."
Sorry, but if there is a creator of the universe and a group that believes in that creator, those beliefs shouldn't contradict with the universe. Otherwise, they have the wrong creator (or the wrong universe and are living in their own world). |
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03/08/2013 09:23:02 PM · #473 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Mousie:
So are all the atheists in these apocryphal stories the sort of people who go out of their way to spite their neighbors for no reason because they are possessed by the devil? |
Nah! The believers just need atheist extremists to be the bad guys so that their stories have a happy ending. Atheists don't really care so much to refute God's existence. What's in in it for them? "You believe in God, good for you, I don't, so what?" The believer has to dangle the carrot to build the flock, the atheist just goes to the beach at the end of the week......8~) |
Yeah but what about when policy is influenced by religious beliefs? Eg, gay right rights, abortion, science... |
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03/08/2013 10:17:55 PM · #474 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I thought the link was interesting, but, honestly, from MY perspective it's a little saddening. In my eyes it would be analagous to a place set up to enjoy the smell of a well prepared steak. People would come in and smell the butter and aroma of the juices and say, "wow, doesn't that smell wonderful!" but never get to experience the actual steak. We would be worshipping a ghostly visage instead of the real thing.
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I didn't see anything in the article of the concept that would prevent a viewer from seeing their God in such a place. It would be akin to a church of another faith, perhaps? |
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03/08/2013 10:42:36 PM · #475 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I thought the link was interesting, but, honestly, from MY perspective it's a little saddening. In my eyes it would be analagous to a place set up to enjoy the smell of a well prepared steak. People would come in and smell the butter and aroma of the juices and say, "wow, doesn't that smell wonderful!" but never get to experience the actual steak. We would be worshipping a ghostly visage instead of the real thing.
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I didn't see anything in the article of the concept that would prevent a viewer from seeing their God in such a place. It would be akin to a church of another faith, perhaps? |
That's what I was thinking... |
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