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12/22/2012 11:30:00 PM · #1051 |
| I don't really have a huge amount to say on the matter now-i said my thoughts before and, i think, they were kind of dismissed as being a bit weird and out there (communist socialist satanist nut job i guess). But, catching up with all the recent pages i'm just thinking: wow! What a completely different world the U.S is to where i am in the U.K. I'm not commenting here on either *side* really, just pointing out that it is amazing that these cultural and historical differences often surprise me. Despite all our similarities the U.S is a long way away. |
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12/22/2012 11:31:06 PM · #1052 |
Originally posted by rooum:
I don't really have a huge amount to say on the matter now-i said my thoughts before and, i think, they were kind of dismissed as being a bit weird and out there (communist socialist satanist nut job i guess). But, catching up with all the recent pages i'm just thinking: wow! What a completely different world the U.S is to where i am in the U.K. I'm not commenting here on either *side* really, just pointing out that it is amazing that these cultural and historical differences often surprise me. Despite all our similarities the U.S is a long way away. |
Right you are. Right you are.
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12/22/2012 11:35:23 PM · #1053 |
And it begins!
Arrested for drawing weapons, and having unspecified chemicals that "could when mixed cause an explosion" - which is really uselessly broad - kid probably had bleach and ammonia at home.
He committed no crime, threatened no-one, and yet he is in jail because everyone is now terrified of everyone. Awesome. SMH.
ETA: I drew LOADS of weapons in school - often pictures of planes dropping bombs on palm tree covered islands too.. Heck I made lots of "bombs" with fireworks and coke cans full of gas (in the country, not in the city - and in the desert where there's nothing to burn!).. Today all of that would probably land me in prison - and that's just a crappy thought, cause I wasn't out to hurt anyone, I was just having fun - but it's SOOO easy to misconstrue that into "he's gonna kill us all!"...
Message edited by author 2012-12-23 00:50:26. |
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12/22/2012 11:36:12 PM · #1054 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Hmm. I don't agree Bear. There is a lot of nuance - Hunting for "Survival" makes it sound like it's only the very poorest who would want to do so, agree? I did miss the extended bit on point #2 honestly, as I stopped reading at the rhetorical "threaten, harm, kill" bullcrap language. And as for sport - I think that would only cover organized sports that are regulated and supervised - at least in his version of the ideal world.
Recognizing that this started with him posting a picture that seemed to indicate he thought all gun owners should be shot, and this was his retort, I don't think I'm unjustified in my reading of his points as having been written with "loaded" language. |
As to the first point, you're splitting hairs and you have nothing to gain from it, it makes you look an odd combination of strident and pedantic. As to the second point, Michael's no more seriously suggesting all gun owners should be shot than YOU guys (said loosely) were suggesting a while back that we needed more massacres to drive the point home. There's all sorts of hyperbolic rhetoric being bandied around in here, and it's sort of weak, IMO, for you to be cherry-picking which bits of hyperbole should be taken at face value. |
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12/22/2012 11:39:38 PM · #1055 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Cory:
Hmm. I don't agree Bear. There is a lot of nuance - Hunting for "Survival" makes it sound like it's only the very poorest who would want to do so, agree? I did miss the extended bit on point #2 honestly, as I stopped reading at the rhetorical "threaten, harm, kill" bullcrap language. And as for sport - I think that would only cover organized sports that are regulated and supervised - at least in his version of the ideal world.
Recognizing that this started with him posting a picture that seemed to indicate he thought all gun owners should be shot, and this was his retort, I don't think I'm unjustified in my reading of his points as having been written with "loaded" language. |
As to the first point, you're splitting hairs and you have nothing to gain from it, it makes you look an odd combination of strident and pedantic. As to the second point, Michael's no more seriously suggesting all gun owners should be shot than YOU guys (said loosely) were suggesting a while back that we needed more massacres to drive the point home. There's all sorts of hyperbolic rhetoric being bandied around in here, and it's sort of weak, IMO, for you to be cherry-picking which bits of hyperbole should be taken at face value. |
Fair enough. |
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12/23/2012 12:17:11 AM · #1056 |
Actually i was trying to use the least loaded words i could find and be very generic in order to simplify the list. I will grant you the collectors point though everything else was covered.
Interesting you thought threaten, harm & kill was a loaded description. It's a firearm it's what they do....if you can think of a nicer or more accurate description i'll buy it.
So now that we know firearms exist for 'mainly' these 4 reasons i'll ask another question.
Other than point 2 why would anyone need military grade assault weapons or high capacity magazines?
Message edited by author 2012-12-23 00:18:36. |
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12/23/2012 12:25:10 AM · #1057 |
Originally posted by MichaelC:
Actually i was trying to use the least loaded words i could find and be very generic in order to simplify the list. I will grant you the collectors point though everything else was covered.
Interesting you thought threaten, harm & kill was a loaded description. It's a firearm it's what they do....if you can think of a nicer or more accurate description i'll buy it.
So now that we know firearms exist for 'mainly' these 4 reasons i'll ask another question.
Other than point 2 why would anyone need military grade assault weapons or high capacity magazines? |
Freedoms aren't defined by need. I've never really argued that anyone "needs" guns at all - bows and arrows work fine to hunt, and my kitchen knives are fine for home defense.
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12/23/2012 01:13:42 AM · #1058 |
So you're seeing the issue of gun control as an infringement of liberty as opposed to a proliferation of deadly weapons?
I don't want to put words in your mouth but in order to save a few posts if the above is true are you suggesting that the US has more 'freedom' than other western countries with stricter gun controls eg: UK & Australia. |
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12/23/2012 01:14:56 AM · #1059 |
Originally posted by MichaelC:
So you're seeing the issue of gun control as an infringement of liberty as opposed to a proliferation of deadly weapons?
I don't want to put words in your mouth but in order to save a few posts if the above is true are you suggesting that the US has more 'freedom' than other western countries with stricter gun controls eg: UK & Australia. |
Sounds like you've got the right idea. |
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12/23/2012 08:48:59 AM · #1060 |
It isn't really a freedom if a very large segment of the population is willing to get rid of it for a better society. If guns only killed or injured gun owners, I don't think anyone would care. But guns put those at risk who choose not to be or ought not to be. They have no ability to protect themself from a someone else's decision. They are simply too dangerous for the general public to handle.
There needs to be laws in place that protect the population from the poor decision of others, this transcends guns, but includes them nonetheless. |
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12/23/2012 09:31:34 AM · #1061 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by MichaelC:
So you're seeing the issue of gun control as an infringement of liberty as opposed to a proliferation of deadly weapons?
I don't want to put words in your mouth but in order to save a few posts if the above is true are you suggesting that the US has more 'freedom' than other western countries with stricter gun controls eg: UK & Australia. |
Sounds like you've got the right idea. |
... and one could argue that whenever the lunatics get to run the asylum they too enjoy more freedoms. (and no I am not suggesting that you and others are lunatics).
The difference in this example is that whilst withing the asylum, these people are a danger only to themselves. Their existence in the general public can lead to serious consequences.
Ray
Message edited by author 2012-12-23 09:36:41. |
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12/23/2012 09:37:24 AM · #1062 |
Originally posted by Cory:
And it begins!
Arrested for drawing weapons, and having unspecified chemicals that "could when mixed cause an explosion" - which is really uselessly broad - kid probably had bleach and ammonia at home.
He committed no crime, threatened no-one, and yet he is in jail because everyone is now terrified of everyone. Awesome. SMH.
ETA: I drew LOADS of weapons in school - often pictures of planes dropping bombs on palm tree covered islands too.. Heck I made lots of "bombs" with fireworks and coke cans full of gas (in the country, not in the city - and in the desert where there's nothing to burn!).. Today all of that would probably land me in prison - and that's just a crappy thought, cause I wasn't out to hurt anyone, I was just having fun - but it's SOOO easy to misconstrue that into "he's gonna kill us all!"... |
This is not just beginning. In NJ there has been a ban on "weapons" in school for many years. The vaguest of threats can get you jail time. My son was suspended in 1st grade (he's 13 now) for telling another kid he would "kill him" (they were playing one of those card games which included the phrase) because a playground aide overheard him say it. My niece's boyfriend (at the time, and she's 24 now) spent 3 years in jail for having a "hit list" in high school, though he owned no weapons and neither did his parents. They cannot bring a plastic sword or toy gun as part of a Halloween costume. No weapons, real or fake or drawn on a piece of paper. Period. It's been that way here for many, many years. |
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12/23/2012 10:48:03 AM · #1063 |
I am just thinking; weapons may be an absolute necessity if we consider the kind of animals we are.
(I voluntarily handed my licensed handguns back even before the request came in South Africa. Unfortunately the illegal weapons are still in the hands of the animals I refer to above.) |
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12/23/2012 11:04:42 AM · #1064 |
Originally posted by docpjv:
I am just thinking; weapons may be an absolute necessity if we consider the kind of animals we are.
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but why are we animals? i don't think we are born animals. we are made animals. those of us that have a purpose in life have no desire to destroy.
its clear that the real problem childs in out society are the impoverished that feel they have option but to take, with deadly force if need be.
slightly off topic, the most violent countries tend to be those that have nothing better to do than fight with each other (and it doesn't help the we continue to fight with them). i still maintain that real solution to Mideast peace is to build up their society were they have something else to do and live for besides death. that also goes for here at home.
I said it before the big reason i voted for Obama was because he symbolized hope for those who otherwise didn't have any and it didn't seem take hold.
Message edited by author 2012-12-23 11:06:48. |
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12/23/2012 11:20:51 AM · #1065 |
Please use a text link or thumbnail when posting images more than 500px wide in the forums, per the Forum Rules.
I note from this image that it is possible to fire two shots within the time span of a single (relatively short) exposure; so much for there being any significant difference between fully automatic and semi-automatic weapons ... |
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12/23/2012 11:29:15 AM · #1066 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Please use a text link or thumbnail when posting images more than 500px wide in the forums, per the Forum Rules.
I note from this image that it is possible to fire two shots within the time span of a single (relatively short) exposure; so much for there being any significant difference between fully automatic and semi-automatic weapons ... |
To be fair, the number of shots fired matters far less than the accuracy of those shots. |
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12/23/2012 11:33:46 AM · #1067 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by docpjv:
I am just thinking; weapons may be an absolute necessity if we consider the kind of animals we are.
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but why are we animals? i don't think we are born animals. we are made animals. those of us that have a purpose in life have no desire to destroy.
its clear that the real problem childs in out society are the impoverished that feel they have option but to take, with deadly force if need be.
slightly off topic, the most violent countries tend to be those that have nothing better to do than fight with each other (and it doesn't help the we continue to fight with them). i still maintain that real solution to Mideast peace is to build up their society were they have something else to do and live for besides death. that also goes for here at home.
I said it before the big reason i voted for Obama was because he symbolized hope for those who otherwise didn't have any and it didn't seem take hold. |
The Doc is right. But he's seen enough of the world to know that we are BORN animals, and it's just that some of us manage to transcend the nature of our species. (humans are arguable the most violent, evil, and mean spirited creatures on this planet, and it's in our very nature.. Nurture can, however, enhance this beast)
Fortunately, most of us are able to overcome our nature to become socially acceptable humans, so the real bad apples are still very rare. |
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12/24/2012 10:31:44 AM · #1068 |
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12/24/2012 10:43:03 AM · #1069 |
No guns available I guess!
Woman forked! |
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12/24/2012 03:01:52 PM · #1070 |
Who cares about those firefighters, teachers, students, movie goers, military personnel, shoppers, store clerks, or anybody liviing in the inner cities? According to some, the odds of you personally getting shot are very low so don't worry about those poor souls that are unlucky and are of greater risk.
However if you're still paranoid maybe invest in some kevlar and some bullet proof glass for the car and home to make you feel better. Whatever you do just don't suggest taking a single toy away from the galactically selfish among us. Our toys are worth far more than the life of any stranger. Besides taking any of them away won't reduce fatalities in America. We're not like the rest of the world. Europe, Asia, South America, they're all the same. We're different. We're special. We like riding the short bus so that's why it won't work here.
<\ end pro gun translation>
Message edited by author 2012-12-24 15:04:52. |
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12/24/2012 05:58:05 PM · #1071 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
No guns available I guess!
Woman forked! |
It's official... I need glasses. :O)
Ray |
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12/25/2012 09:18:10 AM · #1072 |
"But the pro-gun National Rifle Association (NRA), which has more than four million members, has rejected the need for tighter gun control. According to the Small Arms Survey, there were 88.8 firearms for every 100 Americans in 2007."
Is this 4 million representative of the Americans 300 million? I think the government will do well to have a national referendum on this issue. Let the real democracy with all its faults tell us what is the will of the people. Second amendment says you have the right to arm yourself. Does it specify if you may use arms? How does the reasoning and application perception differ between the writing of it and modern day. Surely things have changed, even in America? |
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12/25/2012 09:56:22 AM · #1073 |
Originally posted by docpjv:
How does the reasoning and application perception differ between the writing of it and modern day. Surely things have changed, even in America? |
When the constitution was written, the concern of the Founders was that "the people" be able to resist a tyrannical government. Of particular concern to the Founders was that we, the People, not be creating a federal government that would impose its will upon the individual states without their consent. We were/are, after all, the "united" states of America: a federation.
Soon enough this was tested, when a significant portion of the states tried to secede from the Union and form the Confederate States of America. We all know how THAT turned out: the bloodiest war in our history (and at that time, I believe, in ALL history).
So pretty much since that time, yes, things have changed. Certainly, it's no longer possible for the individual states, let alone groups of citizens within those states, to stand up to the Federal government by means of force alone. We're long past that stage. |
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12/25/2012 05:06:54 PM · #1074 |
| The debate is now just people yelling their bullshit at each other with the "No Guns" assholes on one side and the "More Guns" assholes on the other. Both sides are just as stupid. |
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12/25/2012 05:37:51 PM · #1075 |
| Now perhaps you can go on to explain how calling people "stupid assholes" advances the debate or moves us any closer to a solution (or even helps define the problem)? |
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