| Author | Thread |
|
|
12/22/2012 07:34:05 PM · #1026 |
Here's a fun one.
Police plan to analyze discussions on the internet to attempt to identify and intercept these killers.
Again, this seems like such a good, common sense, and easy to do thing. Yet.. I'm betting this will work out like many of the intercepted "terrorists" that were groomed, equipped, and encouraged by undercover officers. So many people can be easily led, I'm betting that this will get more of those sorts than it will actual killers.
Hell, now this will just be a new and fun way to waste the time of the police for those who are attention seekers, or those who just want to get a rise out of the cops.
As I said previously, I expect to see plenty of privacy eroded, and rights lost... But I don't particularly expect to see this problem evaporate. |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 08:07:57 PM · #1027 |
I found This rather interesting.
Ray |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 08:18:38 PM · #1028 |
What's sad is the NRA followed just the usual strategy of ducking down for a few days, hoping attention moves to some other issue, and then issuing yet another delirious statement about guns.
At least they could have the decency to shut up when it comes to this kind of tragedies, rather than doing propaganda while the blood is still fresh.
I hope all the parents will have the force of going through this, I don't even want to think how I would feel.
It's said how this will happen again and again. |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 08:21:00 PM · #1029 |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 08:28:34 PM · #1030 |
I find that puzzling. They ARE a bunch of jack booted thugs. Just because king thug says they're good guys, doesn't make it so.
I could post a dozen videos in defense of that opinion - but I'm sure that it's easier just to ask "Don't you agree that the civilian police have become militarized to the point of being a threat to citizens?"
When the standard practice is to use SWAT teams something has gone horribly wrong.
|
|
|
|
12/22/2012 08:46:08 PM · #1031 |
Originally posted by Cory:
I could post a dozen videos in defense of that opinion - but I'm sure that it's easier just to ask "Don't you agree that the civilian police have become militarized to the point of being a threat to citizens?"
When the standard practice is to use SWAT teams something has gone horribly wrong. |
Did you ever think that perhaps the prevalence of high powered firearms and the availability of other military style items might lead police agencies to assume the worst and act accordingly.
Just asking.
Ray |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 09:00:49 PM · #1032 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Did you ever think that perhaps the prevalence of high powered firearms and the availability of other military style items might lead police agencies to assume the worst and act accordingly. |
It is not an assumption of the worst Ray, it is a recognition of the facts as they exist. The gun nuts are such a fearsome voting block that the USA has allowed anyone who wants them, to buy guns that have much greater firepower than the cop on the beat is allowed to carry. To argue that we must all be free to buy guns of any type as a God given right and then act as if SWAT teams are a threat to the citizenry is either delusional, or a call for anarchy. |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 09:14:54 PM · #1033 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Did you ever think that perhaps the prevalence of high powered firearms and the availability of other military style items might lead police agencies to assume the worst and act accordingly. |
It is not an assumption of the worst Ray, it is a recognition of the facts as they exist. The gun nuts are such a fearsome voting block that the USA has allowed anyone who wants them, to buy guns that have much greater firepower than the cop on the beat is allowed to carry. To argue that we must all be free to buy guns of any type as a God given right and then act as if SWAT teams are a threat to the citizenry is either delusional, or a call for anarchy. |
For fucks sake, I'm not a gun nut. You can buy all of mine tomorrow, the only real attachment I have is sentimental to my grandfather's pistol (it's the only thing I have of his).
I do wonder if your opinion would change if you owned rental properties in low rent areas, and really had to worry about the police literally shredding your house because someone who lives there sold some pot.
I'm just amazed at the disingenuous nature of your argument - its as if you think you're going to win by belittling me, or by calling me crazy - I'm not crazy, nor do I give a darn if you insult me. What I do find upsetting is that it seems the entire nation is so caught up in this, because the victims were little kids, we're going to, yet again, give up more of our freedom and privacy.
I wouldn't even object if I really thought it would save the next 20 kids - but I don't honestly believe that it will.
You see, don't you Brennan - it's not about the stupid guns - it's about things that actually matter - at least insult me for that which I stand, instead of mislabeling me a gun nut. |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 09:32:51 PM · #1034 |
Originally posted by Cory:
You see, don't you Brennan - it's not about the stupid guns - it's about things that actually matter - at least insult me for that which I stand, instead of mislabeling me a gun nut. |
I said we had irrational gun laws because the gun nuts ( read NRA and their true believers )held such sway in the congress. I did not call you a name. If you want to wear that badge, fine; but I did not pin it on you.
You speak of your freedoms, and you are not alone in fearing for your freedoms; but we ought to be able to go to the movies, send our children to school or live our lives while being free of the specter of being shot. As Jefferson put it "your right to swing your arm ends at the point of another man's nose". No freedom is absolute, and when they come into conflict with the rights of others, there must be adjustments, particularly when those who find themselves in such a conflict are robbed of their lives. |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 09:54:57 PM · #1035 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by Cory:
You see, don't you Brennan - it's not about the stupid guns - it's about things that actually matter - at least insult me for that which I stand, instead of mislabeling me a gun nut. |
I said we had irrational gun laws because the gun nuts ( read NRA and their true believers )held such sway in the congress. I did not call you a name. If you want to wear that badge, fine; but I did not pin it on you.
You speak of your freedoms, and you are not alone in fearing for your freedoms; but we ought to be able to go to the movies, send our children to school or live our lives while being free of the specter of being shot. As Jefferson put it "your right to swing your arm ends at the point of another man's nose". No freedom is absolute, and when they come into conflict with the rights of others, there must be adjustments, particularly when those who find themselves in such a conflict are robbed of their lives. |
Ahh. Perhaps you can see where I got the idea.
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
...The gun nuts ........ To argue that we must all be free to buy guns of any type as a God given right and then act as if SWAT teams are a threat to the citizenry is either delusional, or a call for anarchy. |
Given that I had just talked about SWAT teams being a threat to citizens, I thought the entire statement was directed at me.
..
Before last week, or even today, are you honestly able to say that you think your kids are going to be shot every time they go to the movies? Or that there is someone about to kill them at school?
If you're honestly that scared, then there's no helping you. The odds are, today, just as yesterday, and before, quite low that any such thing will ever happen. The odds that we will see erosion of our rights, freedoms, and privacy is a much more likely outcome.
The basic problem with your argument is that you're assuming you can create laws that really will prevent the violence. Norway always had fairly restrictive laws, and high ownership - yet that nutcase managed just fine there, despite the laws. Seems like once a month I read about some Chinese guy slashing up a bunch of kids, etc.
So, in the end, I see laws coming that will further NERF the world. But again, we have that basic disconnect where you're willing to give up everything you are asked to give up, in order to feel as though you've done something.
|
|
|
|
12/22/2012 10:22:06 PM · #1036 |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 10:24:55 PM · #1037 |
Originally posted by Cory:
So, in the end, I see laws coming that will further NERF the world. But again, we have that basic disconnect where you're willing to give up everything you are asked to give up, in order to feel as though you've done something. |
I am OK with Nerfing the world to some extent.
In China a nut job attacked a school and tried to kill kids. With a knife. He attacked 20 kids. No one died.
A few weeks ago I was having beers with a friend and a guy who was visiting him from the Netherlands. They are both ER doctors. My friend was blown away that the dutch guy had never treated a bullet wound, since the gets a few a day at his ER. I would be willing to give up gun shot wounds. It will mean more stabbings, but we can live with that. |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 10:28:28 PM · #1038 |
Well, MichealC is apparently advocating that all gun owners should be shot, and you're OK with kids getting stabbed, slashed, and traumatized for life, but not getting shot and killed.
A 7 yr. old with a colostomy bag for life and horrible physical and emotional scars isn't really much better than a 6 yr. old in a casket.
Seems to me that it's not much of a thing to trade freedoms for - but I'm quite certain that the bargain has already been made.
Message edited by author 2012-12-22 22:29:46. |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 10:31:32 PM · #1039 |
| Ah Cory, Cory, Cory your interpretation is impressive. |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 10:37:05 PM · #1040 |
Originally posted by MichaelC:
Ah Cory, Cory, Cory your interpretation is impressive. |
:) I would be interested in what your intent was, if not to suggest that anyone who wants a gun should shoot themselves. |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 10:43:40 PM · #1041 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Well, MichealC is apparently advocating that all gun owners should be shot, and you're OK with kids getting stabbed, slashed, and traumatized for life, but not getting shot and killed.
A 7 yr. old with a colostomy bag for life and horrible physical and emotional scars isn't really much better than a 6 yr. old in a casket.
Seems to me that it's not much of a thing to trade freedoms for - but I'm quite certain that the bargain has already been made. |
Cory, really? That child would be alive with a possibility of recovery. That's a much better scenario for me. |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 10:45:26 PM · #1042 |
Originally posted by Cory:
A 7 yr. old with a colostomy bag for life and horrible physical and emotional scars isn't really much better than a 6 yr. old in a casket. |
The 7 year old (and anyone else not in perfect physical condition) would not only likely disagree, but be dumbfounded at your arrogance in purporting to be in a position to make that judgement for them. |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 10:47:16 PM · #1043 |
I admit I am an idealist and a city boy so the issue is no doubt more complex than I see it.
But without drama or emotion can you succinctly list for me any reasons for firearms I may have missed?
1. Sport
2. Threaten, harm or kill something living (this covers defence, pest culling, etc.)
3. Hunt for survival in order to eat (as opposed to sport) |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 10:52:28 PM · #1044 |
Originally posted by MichaelC:
 |
Yeah this is more accurate
//www.hawaiidefensefoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Gun-Shooting-2.png
Message edited by Manic - please keep all images posted under 300kb and 500px, or post links or thumbnails instead. |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 10:54:00 PM · #1045 |
Originally posted by MichaelC:
I admit I am an idealist and a city boy so the issue is no doubt more complex than I see it.
But without drama or emotion can you succinctly list for me any reasons for firearms I may have missed?
1. Sport
2. Threaten, harm or kill something living (this covers defence, pest culling, etc.)
3. Hunt for survival in order to eat (as opposed to sport) |
you left out defense.
|
|
|
|
12/22/2012 10:54:07 PM · #1046 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Cory:
A 7 yr. old with a colostomy bag for life and horrible physical and emotional scars isn't really much better than a 6 yr. old in a casket. |
The 7 year old (and anyone else not in perfect physical condition) would not only likely disagree, but be dumbfounded at your arrogance in purporting to be in a position to make that judgement for them. |
Woah there ponies. I said "not much better".. First, I don't really think either outcome is particularly great. Second, I think it would be better to address the reasons WHY people do this, rather than the weapons they choose. Third, I'm not certain I wouldn't prefer death over being badly screwed up and in pain for the rest of my life - and I've thought this point over a great deal... Not like any of us get the choice anyway.
Message edited by author 2012-12-22 23:07:21. |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 10:59:45 PM · #1047 |
Originally posted by MichaelC:
I admit I am an idealist and a city boy so the issue is no doubt more complex than I see it.
But without drama or emotion can you succinctly list for me any reasons for firearms I may have missed?
1. Sport
2. Threaten, harm or kill something living (this covers defence, pest culling, etc.)
3. Hunt for survival in order to eat (as opposed to sport) |
Sure.
Collector's items (there are many that are highly rare or valuable)
Enjoyment (sorta like sport, but without real reason or competition)
Varmint control, this is admittedly not something that is needed in cities
Self-Defense / deterrent - not as valuable as training - but not a terrible choice
Hunt for enjoyment, there are plenty of species that do need to be culled, as the populations have no natural predators today. Some animals are, in fact, also delicious.
Animal defense - in certain (rare) places, there are animals that would like to chew on you. Guns do help.
Stress Relief - you may not understand it, but there is a certain visceral enjoyment in holding an explosion producing projectile thrower in your hands...
.. There are other reasons too, I'm sure, but guns are used literally many tens or hundreds of thousands of times each day in the US - and it's only a VERY few of those instances that are problems.
Really, the biggest problem I have with guns is the fact that they're littering the landscape with little bits of lead.
Message edited by author 2012-12-22 23:03:39. |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 11:14:30 PM · #1048 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Cory:
A 7 yr. old with a colostomy bag for life and horrible physical and emotional scars isn't really much better than a 6 yr. old in a casket. |
The 7 year old (and anyone else not in perfect physical condition) would not only likely disagree, but be dumbfounded at your arrogance in purporting to be in a position to make that judgement for them. |
Woah there ponies. I said "not much better".. First, I don't really think either outcome is particularly great. Second, I think it would be better to address the reasons WHY people do this, rather than the weapons they choose. Third, I'm not certain I wouldn't prefer death over being badly screwed up and in pain for the rest of my life - and I've thought this point over a great deal... Not like any of us get the choice anyway. |
Yeah, you're right. "not much better" definitely covers this huge fuck up of a sentence.
I like you Cory but on this point I am, as the General said "dumbfounded at your arrogance in purporting to be in a position to make that judgement for them". |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 11:14:47 PM · #1049 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by MichaelC:
I admit I am an idealist and a city boy so the issue is no doubt more complex than I see it.
But without drama or emotion can you succinctly list for me any reasons for firearms I may have missed?
1. Sport
2. Threaten, harm or kill something living (this covers defence, pest culling, etc.)
3. Hunt for survival in order to eat (as opposed to sport) |
Sure.
Collector's items (there are many that are highly rare or valuable)
Enjoyment (sorta like sport, but without real reason or competition)
Varmint control, this is admittedly not something that is needed in cities
Self-Defense / deterrent - not as valuable as training - but not a terrible choice
Hunt for enjoyment, there are plenty of species that do need to be culled, as the populations have no natural predators today. Some animals are, in fact, also delicious.
Animal defense - in certain (rare) places, there are animals that would like to chew on you. Guns do help.
Stress Relief - you may not understand it, but there is a certain visceral enjoyment in holding an explosion producing projectile thrower in your hands...
.. There are other reasons too, I'm sure, but guns are used literally many tens or hundreds of thousands of times each day in the US - and it's only a VERY few of those instances that are problems.
Really, the biggest problem I have with guns is the fact that they're littering the landscape with little bits of lead. |
Cory, ALL of those except "collecting" are covered by Michael's 3 points. For example, "sport" includes just doing things for fun, like some people play golf or sail without com,peting, and others compete. |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 11:28:59 PM · #1050 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by MichaelC:
I admit I am an idealist and a city boy so the issue is no doubt more complex than I see it.
But without drama or emotion can you succinctly list for me any reasons for firearms I may have missed?
1. Sport
2. Threaten, harm or kill something living (this covers defence, pest culling, etc.)
3. Hunt for survival in order to eat (as opposed to sport) |
Sure.
Collector's items (there are many that are highly rare or valuable)
Enjoyment (sorta like sport, but without real reason or competition)
Varmint control, this is admittedly not something that is needed in cities
Self-Defense / deterrent - not as valuable as training - but not a terrible choice
Hunt for enjoyment, there are plenty of species that do need to be culled, as the populations have no natural predators today. Some animals are, in fact, also delicious.
Animal defense - in certain (rare) places, there are animals that would like to chew on you. Guns do help.
Stress Relief - you may not understand it, but there is a certain visceral enjoyment in holding an explosion producing projectile thrower in your hands...
.. There are other reasons too, I'm sure, but guns are used literally many tens or hundreds of thousands of times each day in the US - and it's only a VERY few of those instances that are problems.
Really, the biggest problem I have with guns is the fact that they're littering the landscape with little bits of lead. |
Cory, ALL of those except "collecting" are covered by Michael's 3 points. For example, "sport" includes just doing things for fun, like some people play golf or sail without com,peting, and others compete. |
Hmm. I don't agree Bear. There is a lot of nuance - Hunting for "Survival" makes it sound like it's only the very poorest who would want to do so, agree? I did miss the extended bit on point #2 honestly, as I stopped reading at the rhetorical "threaten, harm, kill" bullcrap language. And as for sport - I think that would only cover organized sports that are regulated and supervised - at least in his version of the ideal world.
Recognizing that this started with him posting a picture that seemed to indicate he thought all gun owners should be shot, and this was his retort, I don't think I'm unjustified in my reading of his points as having been written with "loaded" language. |
|
