| Author | Thread |
|
|
12/22/2012 11:25:11 AM · #1001 |
Originally posted by MinsoPhoto:
Don't get me wrong I am all for tighter gun control laws, I am just wondering how well it will work with our lax borders. |
The only issue with borders is guns coming FROM the U.S., not coming in. |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 11:29:29 AM · #1002 |
Originally posted by FourPointX:
i didnt read the article so i'm not sure if this point was made, but it really feels like the focus is in the wrong place in the wake of this tragedy. so many are arguing for/against guns, isn't it the violence we should be addressing? |
If there's a repeated problem of kids throwing rocks on the playground, step 1 is to remove the rocks. A lecture and counseling might follow. What you DON'T do is pretend the problem will go away if you bring in more rocks so everyone can fire back. |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 11:33:33 AM · #1003 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by FourPointX:
i didnt read the article so i'm not sure if this point was made, but it really feels like the focus is in the wrong place in the wake of this tragedy. so many are arguing for/against guns, isn't it the violence we should be addressing? |
If there's a repeated problem of kids throwing rocks on the playground, step 1 is to remove the rocks. A lecture and counseling might follow. What you DON'T do is pretend the problem will go away if you bring in more rocks so everyone can fire back. |
Now now Shannon, if we simply removed all the windows in the school and dressed the children in riot gear I am convinced that we would not experience the carnage normally associated with rock throwing.
Food for though huh? :O)
Ray |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 11:36:58 AM · #1004 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
It's a fools errand to try to do something about controlling gun violence? Blame it on culture, society, all the while proclaiming a bullshit right to be heavily armed? One of the best articles I have read, [img]right here.[/img] |
Yeah, that pesky bullshit Bill of Rights...free speech and all that... total bullshit. |
The bill of right states we are allowed to bear arms, says noting about guns, arms could be screwdrivers for all we know since they are tools than can be used for killing just like guns as you eloquently argue.
Message edited by author 2012-12-22 11:41:41. |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 01:03:12 PM · #1005 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
It's a fools errand to try to do something about controlling gun violence? Blame it on culture, society, all the while proclaiming a bullshit right to be heavily armed? One of the best articles I have read, [img]right here.[/img] |
Yeah, that pesky bullshit Bill of Rights...free speech and all that... total bullshit. |
The few lives that will be lost because of these rights are clearly much more important than the many lives lost to protect your bullshit rights.
Now, stop being an insensitive jerk and give up your bullshit freedoms so that those who aren't willing to accept the reality of the world can pretend they are safe.
After all, clearly the rest of the world agrees that we are stupid children, don't you want to grow up like they did? |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 01:06:43 PM · #1006 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Now, stop being an insensitive jerk and give up your bullshit freedoms so that those who aren't willing to accept the reality of the world can pretend they are safe.
|
or one could look at it like people are holding onto bullshit things they think are freedoms just so they can pretend they are safe. |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 01:21:35 PM · #1007 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by Cory:
Now, stop being an insensitive jerk and give up your bullshit freedoms so that those who aren't willing to accept the reality of the world can pretend they are safe.
|
or one could look at it like people are holding onto bullshit things they think are freedoms just so they can pretend they are safe. |
But we're not safe. Never will be. To think otherwise is just fantasy.
All this sort of thing does is cause us to have to take our shoes off as we go though the airport, and ensure that I can't have fingernail clippers or a 4oz tube of toothpaste. The laws that you want to pass to make you safe will only cause everyone to lose rights or jump through silly hoops that are easily bypassed.
In the end, I fully believe that the only options that work are staying status quo, or going for full and massive bans. (essentially the equivalent of TSA cavity searches being declared standard practice.) |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 01:22:11 PM · #1008 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by Cory:
Now, stop being an insensitive jerk and give up your bullshit freedoms so that those who aren't willing to accept the reality of the world can pretend they are safe.
|
or one could look at it like people are holding onto bullshit things they think are freedoms just so they can pretend they are safe. |
BTW: Freedom can't be restricted, or it's not freedom, this is an all or nothing thing as well. |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 01:23:57 PM · #1009 |
Here.. Here's a great example of this sort of thinking.
It's now apparently OK to fire someone because you find them attractive. What next? Sharia law? |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 01:32:10 PM · #1010 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Yeah, that pesky bullshit Bill of Rights...free speech and all that... total bullshit. |
Originally posted by Cory:
BTW: Freedom can't be restricted, or it's not freedom, this is an all or nothing thing as well. |
The Bill of Rights is not unlimited — the First Amendment (free speech) is limited (the classic prohibition on falsely yelling "fire" in a theater), and the Patriot Act certainly modifies the Fourth and Fifth Amendments, so why should the Second be considered immune to interpretation/modification or to grant unrestricted access to any weapon to anyone?
FWIW the second and third words of the Second mendment are "well-regulated" ... I'd think that the Founders placed them first because they were the most important ...
Message edited by author 2012-12-22 13:35:00. |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 01:47:45 PM · #1011 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Yeah, that pesky bullshit Bill of Rights...free speech and all that... total bullshit. |
Originally posted by Cory:
BTW: Freedom can't be restricted, or it's not freedom, this is an all or nothing thing as well. |
The Bill of Rights is not unlimited — the First Amendment (free speech) is limited (the classic prohibition on falsely yelling "fire" in a theater), and the Patriot Act certainly modifies the Fourth and Fifth Amendments, so why should the Second be considered immune to interpretation/modification or to grant unrestricted access to any weapon to anyone?
FWIW the second and third words of the Second mendment are "well-regulated" ... I'd think that the Founders placed them first because they were the most important ... |
This has probably been said like a thousand times already. I'm not sure saying it again will help matters or any of the other erroneous right wing claims that have already been refuted. Their ears must be cut off or they are in some kind of vegetative state. Either way there's no signal to be had.
Message edited by author 2012-12-22 13:48:16. |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 02:01:44 PM · #1012 |
Originally posted by Cory:
give up your... freedoms so that those who aren't willing to accept the reality of the world can pretend they are safe. |
Barricading our children under armed guard and selling bulletproof backpacks to first graders is not freedom. It's living in fear. Two deputies at Columbine couldn't stop an attack by students who KNEW an armed officer was at the school. The reality of the world is that our own guns are used to kill us FAR more often than to defend us. The reality of the world is that militias are no longer necessary or relevant to defend the states (might as well be a right to bear chariots). The reality of the world is that a gun won't stop an oppressive government, yet defenseless people can overthrow imperialists in India.
The reality of the world is that hunters, collectors and hobbyists still bear arms in Australia, Germany and Great Britain, in a similar culture of media and video games, but without our staggering levels of gun violence. If there were even a shred of truth to the claim that arming people stops criminals, then concealed carry laws and a nearly 1:1 ratio of guns to people in this country should mean LESS gun homicides here than those other countries– yet we can clearly observe the opposite result. The reality of the world is that only cowards need guns to feel secure, which is why Bushmaster Firearms LITERALLY markets their semi-automatic assault rifles with the message that it makes you a man. Mass killers are not "men." People who hoard an arsenal of guns and thousands of rounds of ammunition for self defense are not "men." Standing defenseless in front of a Chinese tank is a man, and the two unarmed administrators who rushed a killer at Sandy Hook are more men than the proud owner of a dozen Bushmaster rifles will ever be. |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 02:07:15 PM · #1013 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Barricading our children under armed guard... |
There's a word for that: "Prison" |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 02:09:05 PM · #1014 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Cory:
give up your... freedoms so that those who aren't willing to accept the reality of the world can pretend they are safe. |
Barricading our children under armed guard and selling bulletproof backpacks to first graders is not freedom. It's living in fear. Two deputies at Columbine couldn't stop an attack by students who KNEW an armed officer was at the school. The reality of the world is that our own guns are used to kill us FAR more often than to defend us. The reality of the world is that militias are no longer necessary or relevant to defend the states (might as well be a right to bear chariots). The reality of the world is that a gun won't stop an oppressive government, yet defenseless people can overthrow imperialists in India.
The reality of the world is that hunters, collectors and hobbyists still bear arms in Australia, Germany and Great Britain, in a similar culture of media and video games, but without our staggering levels of gun violence. If there were even a shred of truth to the claim that arming people stops criminals, then concealed carry laws and a nearly 1:1 ratio of guns to people in this country should mean LESS gun homicides here than those other countries– yet we can clearly observe the opposite result. The reality of the world is that only cowards need guns to feel secure, which is why Bushmaster Firearms LITERALLY markets their semi-automatic assault rifles with the message that it makes you a man. Mass killers are not "men." People who hoard an arsenal of guns and thousands of rounds of ammunition for self defense are not "men." Standing defenseless in front of a Chinese tank is a man, and the two unarmed administrators who rushed a killer at Sandy Hook are more men than the proud owner of a dozen Bushmaster rifles will ever be. |
By the way, +1 :-) |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 02:11:32 PM · #1015 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Barricading our children under armed guard... |
There's a word for that: "Prison" |
Well we are a prison state. We have more prisoners than any other country in the world and children are just future prisoners so I guess there is some logic to the right's position after all... |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 02:20:39 PM · #1016 |
If you are going to agressively gainsay, at least get your quotes right.
I said "bullshit right to be heavily armed"
The conservative Scotus members may have won the 2nd amendment battle for now, but the antiquated militia argument will be tested.
One thing I read somewhere that stuck with me was- Remember when the NRA claimed that Travon Martin would still be alive if he had been carrying a concealed 9mm. Oh, of course not, because they never said it. |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 02:21:43 PM · #1017 |
Originally posted by Cory:
But we're not safe. Never will be. To think otherwise is just fantasy. |
It seems you argue both sides of the "safety" issue whenever it suits your purposes. Yesterday you said that the odds of running into a bad guy with a gun are astronomically long, and anyway their guns don't fire 40 percent of the time, so what are we all so worried about?
So which is it? Should every church, movie theater, grocery store, school, home and workplace be an armed camp to protect us from the bad guys? Or nothing much to worry about? |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 02:21:49 PM · #1018 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Cory:
give up your... freedoms so that those who aren't willing to accept the reality of the world can pretend they are safe. |
Barricading our children under armed guard and selling bulletproof backpacks to first graders is not freedom. It's living in fear. Two deputies at Columbine couldn't stop an attack by students who KNEW an armed officer was at the school. The reality of the world is that our own guns are used to kill us FAR more often than to defend us. The reality of the world is that militias are no longer necessary or relevant to defend the states (might as well be a right to bear chariots). The reality of the world is that a gun won't stop an oppressive government, yet defenseless people can overthrow imperialists in India.
|
You don't get it do you?
You can put your kids in BPVs, and you can station the entire National Guard outside the school. Shit will still happen.
Freedom, as I speak of it, does come with risks. Your problem, IMO, is that you refuse to accept the risks that are just a part of life- and as such, you will attempt to NERF the world.
I wish you could recognize the real odds here - what shocks me is that Venser is on the "control" side of this argument, given that he's usually the first to point out how piss-poor people are at actually understanding odds and statistics.
You're basically guaranteeing that everyone loses, in order that a few will be spared from losing their lives. I'm not in agreement with you about this being a good deal.
Personally, I think it's weak and shameful behavior. Go live in a bomb shelter if you wish - but don't try to make me replace my flower garden with a bomb shelter so that we can all be "safe"..
Originally posted by scalvert:
The reality of the world is that only cowards need guns to feel secure, which is why Bushmaster Firearms LITERALLY markets their semi-automatic assault rifles with the message that it makes you a man. Mass killers are not "men." People who hoard an arsenal of guns and thousands of rounds of ammunition for self defense are not "men." Standing defenseless in front of a Chinese tank is a man, and the two unarmed administrators who rushed a killer at Sandy Hook are more men than the proud owner of a dozen Bushmaster rifles will ever be. |
Yeah, and beer makes you wildly attractive to women.
I find it interesting that the three folks you listed as "men" all died horrible helpless deaths. If that's the definition of "man", I'd prefer to not be a "man".. Of course, I also see that you're trying to insult me because I own weapons, all I can say is that my home defense weapon is a hatchet near the door and a $2000 set of kitchen knives in my kitchen - the guns are toys. And hell yes I feel like a "man" for being ready to defend my home. I suppose if you'd like to feel like one of the three "Men" you listed, you should try to bust down my door in the middle of the night, and I'll be quite happy to demonstrate the reasons why I don't choose to use a gun for home defense. (ineffective)
Of course, I'd prefer that you came over, invited, for dinner - that way I could show you what a real man uses a gun for. (food)
Message edited by author 2012-12-22 14:27:19. |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 02:30:40 PM · #1019 |
you are acting like owning a gun is a necessary freedom. i don't see how giving them up isn't an option.
its a privilege. there are many other ways to defend yourself or arm yourself than with a gun.
|
|
|
|
12/22/2012 02:32:52 PM · #1020 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Originally posted by Cory:
But we're not safe. Never will be. To think otherwise is just fantasy. |
It seems you argue both sides of the "safety" issue whenever it suits your purposes. Yesterday you said that the odds of running into a bad guy with a gun are astronomically long, and anyway their guns don't fire 40 percent of the time, so what are we all so worried about?
So which is it? Should every church, movie theater, grocery store, school, home and workplace be an armed camp to protect us from the bad guys? Or nothing much to worry about? |
First off, it's about the odds. And you really aren't in much danger - but... Whatever the level of danger, you aren't going to reduce it by trying to take away guns.
But clearly, the idea that criminals and psychos don't give a rats arse about the law doesn't really register with you, so I don't quite know how else to explain why laws won't really change the behavior of criminals and psychos.
FYI - I NEVER argued to arm everyone - that's a fantastically stupid idea - untrained people with guns scare me.
I think the only real positive to strong gun control laws would be that the regular users of weapons might be better educated, and less dangerous - therefore I would expect a reduction in accidental gun deaths. But the intentional ones? You're not going to stop that with laws. period. |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 02:37:38 PM · #1021 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
you are acting like owning a gun is a necessary freedom. i don't see how giving them up isn't an option.
its a privilege. there are many other ways to defend yourself or arm yourself than with a gun. |
ROFL. I'm just acting like I feel that freedom is something that shouldn't be compromised. I value freedom more than life itself.
|
|
|
|
12/22/2012 02:44:33 PM · #1022 |
Originally posted by Cory:
But the intentional ones? You're not going to stop that with laws. period. |
I just don't understand how you can make this argument given the experience in other countries. Even in the U.S., my understanding is that the states with stricter gun laws have fewer gun-related deaths, so your argument is just wrong with respect to this country as well. |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 02:47:16 PM · #1023 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Originally posted by Cory:
But the intentional ones? You're not going to stop that with laws. period. |
I just don't understand how you can make this argument given the experience in other countries. Even in the U.S., my understanding is that the states with stricter gun laws have fewer gun-related deaths, so your argument is just wrong with respect to this country as well. |
Just because Bill Gates and Zuckerberg dropped out of college doesn't mean it will work for everyone who does it.
The US is a very different place from those places where this had been tried. You may not like that, or even recognize it, but the fact remains. |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 06:02:55 PM · #1024 |
Originally posted by Cory:
I value freedom more than life itself. |
It seems you value your freedom to play with guns more than the life of the children killed in Sandy Hook. Some of us think their lives are worth more than your toys.
Your notion of American exceptionalism is shared by those who would prefer to ignore the lessons of history and science, but people are pretty much the same around the world; as people, we are not so special. |
|
|
|
12/22/2012 07:23:33 PM · #1025 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by Cory:
I value freedom more than life itself. |
It seems you value your freedom to play with guns more than the life of the children killed in Sandy Hook. Some of us think their lives are worth more than your toys.
Your notion of American exceptionalism is shared by those who would prefer to ignore the lessons of history and science, but people are pretty much the same around the world; as people, we are not so special. |
You're basically guaranteeing that everyone loses, in order that a few will be spared from losing their lives. I'm not in agreement with you about this being a good deal.
|
|
