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12/19/2012 11:49:17 PM · #801
Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by PGerst:

Seems to have been missed


Seriously, first you say " this needs to occur often enough to affect enough people to turn the voting over", then you call us insensitive? It boggles the mind.


Cory, I think it might be advisable to assess some of the things you have said, quite recently on this thread before pointing fingers.

As for the above, I think you are taking that statement too literally. AKA you are reading "Shootings need to happen more" when the real intent of the statement, in my understanding is, "People do not change until things become bad enough." Which is not the same as WISHING things would get worse. It's just a statement of observation. This is sadly the last resort of social or even personal change. Hitting rock bottom before coming back up. Does not mean you WISH a person or society would hit rock bottom.

12/19/2012 11:55:05 PM · #802
Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Sooo....

Can I take a moment to point out ...


I totally agree. If we can fix the reason that people feel that this sort of act is a solution to some problem, then we will be golden.

The problem, as I see it, is that until we are willing to accept locking the mad ones away, or forcing medication upon them, then we have little choice.


I have discussed the mental health side at length to the sound of crickets. THAT IS NOT the only option.

Psych and neuroscience are great passion and loves and it really pains me when people talk about it that really don't know what they are talking about. I'm sorry I'm not trying to be insulting, MOST people really have no idea the leaps and bounds psychology has taken. I didn't learn in college and I went for psych. Having a brain and hearing things around about psych doesn't mean you know about it any more than someone with an iphone knows in depth knowledge about the ins and outs of photography.

So let me repeat. People with mental illness are NOT predestined. Detaining and medicating AFTER they lose it is NOT the only option.

Please. Someone ask me about mental health. I'll answer specific questions as best I can, or point you to a source that might explain better.

12/19/2012 11:56:42 PM · #803
One of the saddest points that is being missed here is the fact that apparently a VERY large contingent of the US population truly believes their government is out to get them. And that their fellow man is out to get them. It's quite sad to realize so much hate, fear, distrust, and apprehension rules the lives of so many.
12/19/2012 11:56:58 PM · #804
Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by Alexkc:

Originally posted by cowboy221977:

spoken like a true liberal/ communist


This is slowly fading into RANT area...


Ignoring that....

You certainly have to admit that's one HELL of a scary position.


I suspect it's not as scary as watching each of your classmates massacred. This thread needs to be renamed, "Toys over Tots".

Message edited by author 2012-12-19 23:57:35.
12/19/2012 11:57:24 PM · #805
Originally posted by sfalice:

Forgive me, 'cause I've lost track.

Is it just Spork99 that wants to make guns unconditionally available to every man, woman and child in the United States?
Or is that also the position of some of the others?
Are there any conditions whatsoever (other than being a bad guy) that would suggest restrictions?


When did I say any such thing?

I just can't believe that people believe that guns possess human qualities like being "evil" or that they can have intent. That's like believing that your refrigerator loves you. Nonsense.

Then there's the ridiculously arrogant "ban all guns...period" or the "make the bullets cost $10000 each" group that see no need for anyone to have a gun because they don't want or need one in theirs so naturally no one does. They're not interested in seeing if any meaningful reforms are possible, they just run about telling everyone the sky is falling. It's not.

The 1994 Assault weapons ban was a joke because the only thing it really did was drive up the price of pre-ban guns and large capacity magazines. It banned certain guns based on how they looked, so it just made the "scary looking" guns illegal, which was just plain stupid. It was the product of politicians, most of whom wrote the law without knowing diddly about guns trying to appease a portion of the public that didn't know any more, but felt better because something had been done and the scary guns were now gone. It was pretty much useless.

I'm afraid that the politicians will again make a bunch of ineffective rules that look great to the people who just want "something" done, but really only mean more harassment for people who just want to shoot targets, hunt and defend themselves. Worse, they'll do nothing to keep guns away from people who should not have them.

There's certainly room for improvement in the NICS background check system (it should interface with state criminal databases, but I don't believe it currently does), requiring proper & secure storage at home along with closing the so-called "Gun Show Loophole". I'd be in favor of a firearms classification system, like similar to the one in place, but with more classes and a graduated permitting system that required a greater demonstration of competency and knowledge for purchasing weapons in "higher" classes. (i.e. you want an AR-15 and 30rd mags? sure. you just have to take the classes and show you're not a felon mentally ill or an idiot that keeps sweeping the instructor with his muzzle.)

I see the biggest problems with any measures will be 1) making new requirements that do not represent enough of a barrier to a citizen wishing to exercise their 2nd Amendment rights that the guaranteed right becomes a granted privilege and 2) making sure the requirements and process are not an invasion of privacy.

12/19/2012 11:59:27 PM · #806
Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by PGerst:

Seems to have been missed


Seriously, first you say " this needs to occur often enough to affect enough people to turn the voting over", then you call us insensitive? It boggles the mind.


Cory, I think it might be advisable to assess some of the things you have said, quite recently on this thread before pointing fingers.

As for the above, I think you are taking that statement too literally. AKA you are reading "Shootings need to happen more" when the real intent of the statement, in my understanding is, "People do not change until things become bad enough." Which is not the same as WISHING things would get worse. It's just a statement of observation. This is sadly the last resort of social or even personal change. Hitting rock bottom before coming back up. Does not mean you WISH a person or society would hit rock bottom.


Ahh, but I'm not claiming to be on the moral high ground here. I recognize that I am not what you would always call a "good" person.

The difference, is that I stand by what I say instead of trying to worm out of it. And I continue to feel as though if PGerst was victimized and terrorized in his own home tonight that he might feel differently about owning guns. I've heard the same story many times, once even in this thread.. "I thought guns were bad, then I was victimized and felt helpless, yay guns.." Would I ever hope that he was hurt? Hell no - but I'd take great interest in his position after that, and would respect his opinion more on the subject either way, and would take even greater pleasure in it if he changed his mind about the right to be armed.

Recognize it as you wish, but anyone who is pleased, in even the slightest way, that this happened should really go take a cold shower and reassess their humanity.

12/20/2012 12:00:44 AM · #807
Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Sooo....

Can I take a moment to point out ...


I totally agree. If we can fix the reason that people feel that this sort of act is a solution to some problem, then we will be golden.

The problem, as I see it, is that until we are willing to accept locking the mad ones away, or forcing medication upon them, then we have little choice.


I have discussed the mental health side at length to the sound of crickets. THAT IS NOT the only option.

Psych and neuroscience are great passion and loves and it really pains me when people talk about it that really don't know what they are talking about. I'm sorry I'm not trying to be insulting, MOST people really have no idea the leaps and bounds psychology has taken. I didn't learn in college and I went for psych. Having a brain and hearing things around about psych doesn't mean you know about it any more than someone with an iphone knows in depth knowledge about the ins and outs of photography.

So let me repeat. People with mental illness are NOT predestined. Detaining and medicating AFTER they lose it is NOT the only option.

Please. Someone ask me about mental health. I'll answer specific questions as best I can, or point you to a source that might explain better.


I'd love to.

How do we intercept these types of psychopaths before they kill people, without greatly eroding civil rights and personal liberties along with our privacy?

What sort of process would you advocate?

Message edited by author 2012-12-20 00:05:02.
12/20/2012 12:01:39 AM · #808
Originally posted by Melethia:

One of the saddest points that is being missed here is the fact that apparently a VERY large contingent of the US population truly believes their government is out to get them. And that their fellow man is out to get them. It's quite sad to realize so much hate, fear, distrust, and apprehension rules the lives of so many.


It comes from experience.
12/20/2012 12:05:13 AM · #809
Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Sooo....

Can I take a moment to point out ...


I totally agree. If we can fix the reason that people feel that this sort of act is a solution to some problem, then we will be golden.

The problem, as I see it, is that until we are willing to accept locking the mad ones away, or forcing medication upon them, then we have little choice.

The issue is that most of these mass killers were just everyday troubled losers, so unless we are willing to take extreme measures, they will nearly always slip through the cracks and they will still kill.

So, we have three options:

1. Status Quo
2. Extreme mental health assessments and institutionalization/forced medication of a large population.
3. Full gun ban, without exception.

.

As I see it, here are the merits of each:
1. Low cost - actual statistical risk to life is very low to all citizens.
2. No more dealing with the looney ones in daily life
3. Guns ARE used in 70%+ of murders, clearly this will make it harder to kill

As I see it, here are the major problems with each:
1. Shit continues to happen just like it is happening today
2. Public outcry - real fear of being locked away for life because you are different
3. Public outcry - criminals may actually become more of a problem once they are certain citizens are not armed.

...

So, what's the best option? What do we do?

As I said previously, I'd only support a FULL ban on weapons, no half-measures, and I would only support that if the law required real improvement within five years, or was removed with prejudice, and return of all property.

I would also never support locking up all the mentally ill, but nothing short of this could really remove the threat.

..

My point, in the end, is really this: We live in a risky world, and that's not going to change anytime soon. My advice would be to either accept the risk, and live our lives free, or to do as much as we possibly can to remove all risk, and then hope that our masters care for us well.


ok lets take that a bit at a time....

you say the world is a dangerous place... yes but i dont keep a gun here just on the off chance something or someone comes at me in a threatening manner.. that is an american trend! so while its a risky and dangerous world, the defence of oneself is unique to america in that you should even need to have a gun! yes every society has places where wild animals can when feeling threatened or forced out into places to seek some need may provoke an attack and be dangerous and in those situations it may be a gun is needed just in case or whatever weapon is appropriate!

re-educating free education, resource distribution, food, water, shelter, and free medical for everyone for a start.

as for the mental health situation, you are generalising about mental health, everyone has mental health and everyone can be pushed into snapping, mental health affects 1 in 5 at any stage in life and will affect 1 in 2 as time goes on in this society so its not just crazies as you call them. as ive said before you have no idea what pushed that young man to do what he did and why yet your labelling him as a loony and have him locked up on medication without even understanding his whole life and seeing what society didnt do to help him and bring him up with the same values as say a non crazy person! so you think about that again please! you need to stop labelling and look at your language and where that comes from and analyse if its true.

if you take away the source of the problem and holistically approach it then things will improve because they no longer reward bad behaviour with money and posessions etc for that and also remove the feeling of no other choice due to being backed so far into a corner that the only way to have their basic needs met by any other way!
12/20/2012 12:05:39 AM · #810
Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by escapetooz:



Please. Someone ask me about mental health. I'll answer specific questions as best I can, or point you to a source that might explain better.


I'd love to.

How do we intercept this psychopaths before they kill people, without greatly eroding civil rights and personal liberties along with our privacy?


BZZZZZZZ. Wrong question. I said mental health questions. You are still talking about nabbing "bad guys". I didn't say "ask me spying questions".

Also, the term psychopath shouldn't be thrown around lightly, it doesn't apply as often as you'd think.
12/20/2012 12:06:25 AM · #811
Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Sooo....

Can I take a moment to point out ...


I totally agree. If we can fix the reason that people feel that this sort of act is a solution to some problem, then we will be golden.

The problem, as I see it, is that until we are willing to accept locking the mad ones away, or forcing medication upon them, then we have little choice.


I have discussed the mental health side at length to the sound of crickets. THAT IS NOT the only option.

Psych and neuroscience are great passion and loves and it really pains me when people talk about it that really don't know what they are talking about. I'm sorry I'm not trying to be insulting, MOST people really have no idea the leaps and bounds psychology has taken. I didn't learn in college and I went for psych. Having a brain and hearing things around about psych doesn't mean you know about it any more than someone with an iphone knows in depth knowledge about the ins and outs of photography.

So let me repeat. People with mental illness are NOT predestined. Detaining and medicating AFTER they lose it is NOT the only option.

Please. Someone ask me about mental health. I'll answer specific questions as best I can, or point you to a source that might explain better.


+1

totally agree with you, am also passionate...
12/20/2012 12:06:59 AM · #812
"Right To Live Life In Complete, Stunned Horror,' Added To Constitution"

When we accept the worst elements of society rather than try to improve society, we embrace the degradation and eventual fall of that society.
12/20/2012 12:09:26 AM · #813
Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by escapetooz:



Please. Someone ask me about mental health. I'll answer specific questions as best I can, or point you to a source that might explain better.


I'd love to.

How do we intercept this psychopaths before they kill people, without greatly eroding civil rights and personal liberties along with our privacy?


BZZZZZZZ. Wrong question. I said mental health questions. You are still talking about nabbing "bad guys". I didn't say "ask me spying questions".

Also, the term psychopath shouldn't be thrown around lightly, it doesn't apply as often as you'd think.


there are many more psycopaths in government and at the heads of corporations as there are on the streets weilding weapons of any kind, but they are looked upto as people to aspire too... that isnt exposed and they are not locked up accordingly nor weeded out and your absolutely right its bandied about as a word just like its an everyday occurance!
12/20/2012 12:09:55 AM · #814
Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by escapetooz:



Please. Someone ask me about mental health. I'll answer specific questions as best I can, or point you to a source that might explain better.


I'd love to.

How do we intercept this psychopaths before they kill people, without greatly eroding civil rights and personal liberties along with our privacy?


BZZZZZZZ. Wrong question. I said mental health questions. You are still talking about nabbing "bad guys". I didn't say "ask me spying questions".

Also, the term psychopath shouldn't be thrown around lightly, it doesn't apply as often as you'd think.


I think it fits quite nicely for anyone who kills others before killing themselves. Disagree?

The question is as relevant as can be. If you can't implement a solution, then it isn't a solution.
12/20/2012 12:09:58 AM · #815
Originally posted by BrennanOB:

"Right To Live Life In Complete, Stunned Horror,' Added To Constitution"

When we accept the worst elements of society rather than try to improve society, we embrace the degradation and eventual fall of that society.


+1
12/20/2012 12:10:45 AM · #816
Originally posted by GAP2012:

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by escapetooz:



Please. Someone ask me about mental health. I'll answer specific questions as best I can, or point you to a source that might explain better.


I'd love to.

How do we intercept this psychopaths before they kill people, without greatly eroding civil rights and personal liberties along with our privacy?


BZZZZZZZ. Wrong question. I said mental health questions. You are still talking about nabbing "bad guys". I didn't say "ask me spying questions".

Also, the term psychopath shouldn't be thrown around lightly, it doesn't apply as often as you'd think.


there are many more psycopaths in government and at the heads of corporations as there are on the streets weilding weapons of any kind, but they are looked upto as people to aspire too... that isnt exposed and they are not locked up accordingly nor weeded out and your absolutely right its bandied about as a word just like its an everyday occurance!


Nope.. Those are sociopaths.
12/20/2012 12:12:13 AM · #817
Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by sfalice:

Forgive me, 'cause I've lost track.

Is it just Spork99 that wants to make guns unconditionally available to every man, woman and child in the United States?
Or is that also the position of some of the others?
Are there any conditions whatsoever (other than being a bad guy) that would suggest restrictions?


When did I say any such thing?

I just can't believe that people believe that guns possess human qualities like being "evil" or that they can have intent. That's like believing that your refrigerator loves you. Nonsense.

Then there's the ridiculously arrogant "ban all guns...period" or the "make the bullets cost $10000 each" group that see no need for anyone to have a gun because they don't want or need one in theirs so naturally no one does. They're not interested in seeing if any meaningful reforms are possible, they just run about telling everyone the sky is falling. It's not.

The 1994 Assault weapons ban was a joke because the only thing it really did was drive up the price of pre-ban guns and large capacity magazines. It banned certain guns based on how they looked, so it just made the "scary looking" guns illegal, which was just plain stupid. It was the product of politicians, most of whom wrote the law without knowing diddly about guns trying to appease a portion of the public that didn't know any more, but felt better because something had been done and the scary guns were now gone. It was pretty much useless.

I'm afraid that the politicians will again make a bunch of ineffective rules that look great to the people who just want "something" done, but really only mean more harassment for people who just want to shoot targets, hunt and defend themselves. Worse, they'll do nothing to keep guns away from people who should not have them.

There's certainly room for improvement in the NICS background check system (it should interface with state criminal databases, but I don't believe it currently does), requiring proper & secure storage at home along with closing the so-called "Gun Show Loophole". I'd be in favor of a firearms classification system, like similar to the one in place, but with more classes and a graduated permitting system that required a greater demonstration of competency and knowledge for purchasing weapons in "higher" classes. (i.e. you want an AR-15 and 30rd mags? sure. you just have to take the classes and show you're not a felon mentally ill or an idiot that keeps sweeping the instructor with his muzzle.)

I see the biggest problems with any measures will be 1) making new requirements that do not represent enough of a barrier to a citizen wishing to exercise their 2nd Amendment rights that the guaranteed right becomes a granted privilege and 2) making sure the requirements and process are not an invasion of privacy.


thats right keep quotting that ridiculous 2nd amendment.... human rights!
12/20/2012 12:12:49 AM · #818
Originally posted by GAP2012:

.... (Summary: Fix the world's problems, and make sure no-one wants or envies)....

if you take away the source of the problem and holistically approach it then things will improve because they no longer reward bad behaviour with money and posessions etc for that and also remove the feeling of no other choice due to being backed so far into a corner that the only way to have their basic needs met by any other way!


If you could do all of that, then the gun debate wouldn't even matter - folks could be armed with rocket launchers and full-auto machine guns and there wouldn't be a single incident aside from accidents.

Message edited by author 2012-12-20 00:13:43.
12/20/2012 12:14:15 AM · #819
Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by GAP2012:

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by escapetooz:



Please. Someone ask me about mental health. I'll answer specific questions as best I can, or point you to a source that might explain better.


I'd love to.

How do we intercept this psychopaths before they kill people, without greatly eroding civil rights and personal liberties along with our privacy?


BZZZZZZZ. Wrong question. I said mental health questions. You are still talking about nabbing "bad guys". I didn't say "ask me spying questions".

Also, the term psychopath shouldn't be thrown around lightly, it doesn't apply as often as you'd think.


there are many more psycopaths in government and at the heads of corporations as there are on the streets weilding weapons of any kind, but they are looked upto as people to aspire too... that isnt exposed and they are not locked up accordingly nor weeded out and your absolutely right its bandied about as a word just like its an everyday occurance!


Nope.. Those are sociopaths.


wrong!!! you can have a psychopath who isnt a serial killer or goes weilding a gun but has the exact same genetic code and patterns of the other but still not weild a physical weapon! sorry but thats a missinterpretation!
12/20/2012 12:15:22 AM · #820
Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by GAP2012:

.... (Summary: Fix the world's problems, and make sure no-one wants or envies)....

if you take away the source of the problem and holistically approach it then things will improve because they no longer reward bad behaviour with money and posessions etc for that and also remove the feeling of no other choice due to being backed so far into a corner that the only way to have their basic needs met by any other way!


If you could do all of that, then the gun debate wouldn't even matter - folks could be armed with rocket launchers and full-auto machine guns and there wouldn't be a single incident aside from accidents.


and you could of course keep esculating that up until its all out of proportion until your argument is null and void too...
12/20/2012 12:15:53 AM · #821
Originally posted by Melethia:

One of the saddest points that is being missed here is the fact that apparently a VERY large contingent of the US population truly believes their government is out to get them. And that their fellow man is out to get them. It's quite sad to realize so much hate, fear, distrust, and apprehension rules the lives of so many.

Very sad indeed Deb :(
12/20/2012 12:16:05 AM · #822
Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by escapetooz:



Please. Someone ask me about mental health. I'll answer specific questions as best I can, or point you to a source that might explain better.


I'd love to.

How do we intercept this psychopaths before they kill people, without greatly eroding civil rights and personal liberties along with our privacy?


BZZZZZZZ. Wrong question. I said mental health questions. You are still talking about nabbing "bad guys". I didn't say "ask me spying questions".

Also, the term psychopath shouldn't be thrown around lightly, it doesn't apply as often as you'd think.


I think it fits quite nicely for anyone who kills others before killing themselves. Disagree?

The question is as relevant as can be. If you can't implement a solution, then it isn't a solution.


By that definition all soldiers are psychopaths? :P No but seriously, it fits in the sense of using it as an insult or a curse, whatever, but not in a mental health discussion, no. It is is not an accurate classification for most murderers.
12/20/2012 12:18:35 AM · #823
Originally posted by GAP2012:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by GAP2012:


there are many more psycopaths in government and at the heads of corporations as there are on the streets weilding weapons of any kind, but they are looked upto as people to aspire too... that isnt exposed and they are not locked up accordingly nor weeded out and your absolutely right its bandied about as a word just like its an everyday occurance!


Nope.. Those are sociopaths.


wrong!!! you can have a psychopath who isnt a serial killer or goes weilding a gun but has the exact same genetic code and patterns of the other but still not weild a physical weapon! sorry but thats a missinterpretation!


We must be speaking a different language entirely (I realize you are translating, and you are doing fine at it mostly)..

I don't believe that a psychopath could ever successfully operate in government or in the corporate world. Sociopaths however are VERY successful in both realms (and most others as well... Arguably it IS a good thing to be a Sociopath..)
12/20/2012 12:22:39 AM · #824
Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by escapetooz:



Please. Someone ask me about mental health. I'll answer specific questions as best I can, or point you to a source that might explain better.


I'd love to.

How do we intercept this psychopaths before they kill people, without greatly eroding civil rights and personal liberties along with our privacy?


BZZZZZZZ. Wrong question. I said mental health questions. You are still talking about nabbing "bad guys". I didn't say "ask me spying questions".

Also, the term psychopath shouldn't be thrown around lightly, it doesn't apply as often as you'd think.


I think it fits quite nicely for anyone who kills others before killing themselves. Disagree?

The question is as relevant as can be. If you can't implement a solution, then it isn't a solution.


By that definition all soldiers are psychopaths? :P No but seriously, it fits in the sense of using it as an insult or a curse, whatever, but not in a mental health discussion, no. It is is not an accurate classification for most murderers.


exactly! +1 and it can be proven that more than a number of CEO's and powerful people have the exact same gene and same lack of empathy and same traits as say a serial killer, but dont hunt and kill with a weapon but do it in the workplace instead, this has been a proven research in the field of the warrior gene and by some leading gentecists and psychiatrists from what ive heard about, which makes perfect sense...
12/20/2012 12:22:51 AM · #825
Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by Cory:



I think it fits quite nicely for anyone who kills others before killing themselves. Disagree?

The question is as relevant as can be. If you can't implement a solution, then it isn't a solution.


By that definition all soldiers are psychopaths? :P No but seriously, it fits in the sense of using it as an insult or a curse, whatever, but not in a mental health discussion, no. It is is not an accurate classification for most murderers.


:P indeed.

Soldiers are under orders to not destroy government property, their job is to NOT die for their country.

Of course, I suppose this thing wasn't really a classic psychopath, as the definition does tend to include erratic and impulsive behaviors, which apparently weren't displayed behaviors.
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