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12/19/2012 10:28:31 PM · #776 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
when out on patrol I had a loaded clip at all times in the weapon but none in the chamber... |
A kindergarten isn't a war zone... unless you're there apparently. |
a teacher can be taught to carry a firearm concealed on her person...with no round in the chamber..then..If she has a 9mm most of those hold 15 rounds in the clip....15 rounds could do the job |
assuming she/he wants to. they are educators not law enforcement or security detail.
i love how the gun lovers are just assuming that everyone wants to live in this armed world. just take a step back and think about that. you WANT to live in a world where every carries a gun for protection.
really? you wouldn't rather takes step in the other direction? |
WANT? Oh hell no. I'd much prefer the rainbows and unicorns version of things. |
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12/19/2012 10:33:53 PM · #777 |
Originally posted by PGerst:
Its really amazing the lack of compassion here that exists for the children that were murdered. The defense of guns against all else and suggestions for further arming people is clearly an indication that people value guns over lives.
There is a certain lack of respect for those killed and those families when you try to compare fighter planes, alligators, cars, knives, etc. to what happened. These conversations are becoming circular and each time leading back to the indefensible position that a gun was used to kill a lot of people quickly.
Its not just here. People across other media venues are saying many of the same things here in their comments to articles. There was even an article in CT saying that gun sales were up partially because of fear of new laws. Yes, I know there was also one in another state, but this article was in the state where the children were killed.
These words, these actions speak louder than anything and simply says people just don't care about those children. Those actions say "good thing it wasn't me, too bad for them".
These postings here will continue to no end as people in this society are just not mature enough to get along. It gets worse every year. So much crap now than when we were kids. It is just simply "all about me, and screw the rest".
Its a sad, pessimistic view, but, can you really argue against that? |
If I recall correctly, you were the one who said this should happen more often? I saw that as a pretty clear indicator that you valued the fantasy of gun-free-land more than lives of any sort.
The thought isn't "good thing it wasn't me, too bad for them", the thought is "Damn, wish I (or someone like me) had been there and armed - I would have gladly risked my life to save those people"...
The worst feeling in the world would be to be there, unarmed, and not have any ability to step in and fight on reasonably even ground. (Knowing myself, I'd probably be stupid enough to still try, with a pipe, a rock, or anything else I could find).
Message edited by author 2012-12-19 22:42:40. |
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12/19/2012 10:35:17 PM · #778 |
Originally posted by PGerst:
We can only hope.
Originally posted by blindjustice:
I sleep sadly, but soundly knowing this tragedy will usher in a new era of restrictions. |
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Nah, you can bet on it. Sure things are rare, but this is a sure thing.
And I have no doubt that it will make as much difference as all of the security measures that were quickly enacted after 9/11. |
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12/19/2012 10:48:09 PM · #779 |
Hey I would love to live in a world where unicorns strolled through backyards and there were mass orgies in the streets and everybody gets along....Unfortunately this is not our world....There are alot of people in the world that want to kill you strictly because you have freedoms....(like women rights)...There are people in the US that think it s all for the taking.....Now I think a good solution to the prob would be an rye for an eye a tooth for a tooth..
This means if you are caught stealing...you remove one hand at the wrist..
If you rape someone..well you can prob guess where Im going there
I mean this would curb crime...and people would think twice before doing something illegal
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12/19/2012 10:54:03 PM · #780 |
| i think again... the point is being missed about the cause of it and solving that! and then hopefully less of these tragic and horrific things will happen, if each generation grows learning that violence is not a resolution to any dissagreement then eventually everyone will understand that. and if each generation is rewarded with the right to live life all their long life in the pursuit of happiness and not taking others lives then they too will understand the value of life and rights. to forget what this was all about is to disrespect yourself and other human beings who lost life at societies own hand! and that is piss poor in my opion... i dont give a crap about the right to bear arms and 2nd ammendment. that could just as easily be every man or woman has a right to have a pair of arms that look like a bears front legs if you wanna literalise it... just stop going on about this ridiculous old piece of parchment which has no value when you take into account god given rights and i dont mean literal god whatever that is... i mean every humans right to a peacful life in happyness with a roof above their head, food and water and enough resources and education for everyone so that no one has to be forced into defending or taking away anything else from anyone else! |
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12/19/2012 10:54:49 PM · #781 |
No, you don't recall correctly. My God....don't you ever get it? I...and others told you that is NOT what I said!
Originally posted by Cory:
If I recall correctly, you were the one who said this should happen more often? |
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12/19/2012 10:56:26 PM · #782 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
Hey I would love to live in a world where unicorns strolled through backyards and there were mass orgies in the streets and everybody gets along....Unfortunately this is not our world....There are alot of people in the world that want to kill you strictly because you have freedoms....(like women rights)...There are people in the US that think it s all for the taking.....Now I think a good solution to the prob would be an rye for an eye a tooth for a tooth..
This means if you are caught stealing...you remove one hand at the wrist..
If you rape someone..well you can prob guess where Im going there
I mean this would curb crime...and people would think twice before doing something illegal |
and yet you hold up the american flag for walking into countries that do just that saying they are less than humane and should be shown the error of their ways and to take our version of democracy... thats a really unthought out statement |
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12/19/2012 11:04:20 PM · #783 |
are you kidding me...we have entered countries that harbored terrorist....these terrorist were/are out to destroy our constitution....so we just should let them go and Americans or allow the carboms in Iraq
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12/19/2012 11:06:43 PM · #784 |
Originally posted by PGerst:
No, you don't recall correctly. My God....don't you ever get it? I...and others told you that is NOT what I said!
Originally posted by Cory:
If I recall correctly, you were the one who said this should happen more often? |
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I remember you saying that. I also remember posting a few snippets where you said quite exactly that.
I have a hard time listening when someone tells me they didn't say something that I can actually go back and quote without taking it out of context.
To be fair, I don't really think you actually want this to happen again, but I do think that deep down you're very pleased that this happened again so soon, so that the laws you desire shall be passed.
And, I have zero faith that the laws will do much more than erode rights and potentially even cause more risk to civilians, this is the USA, not China, not Japan, not England, or any other place where this has been tried...
You want to hear what I would support?
I really would be all for MAJOR and HEAVY restrictions on firearms, ran as a five year pilot. The weapons I own could be stored by the state until the trial period was up. If at the end of the trial period, the statistics were clearly in favor of bans, then I would accept that.
The problem that I have is that you want to run a great social experiment, which I think is destined to fail, but without any way of reversing the loss of rights should the experiment prove to have little to no effect. THAT is what I fear.
Would you, today, support the same TSA that we put in place ten years ago? If you say yes, then I have to seriously question either your intelligence, sanity, or honesty. |
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12/19/2012 11:07:27 PM · #785 |
At least one unicorn was off duty tonight...
or was there some other reason for this one? Just kids fooling around? |
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12/19/2012 11:10:27 PM · #786 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
are you kidding me...we have entered countries that harbored terrorist....these terrorist were/are out to destroy our constitution....so we just should let them go and Americans or allow the carboms in Iraq |
did you even read what i wrote, what you wrote and now just wrote? omg! can you please read and actually come up with rational individual thought that isnt some rhetoric from a president bush speech? please at least read your own and see how unthought out that statement was? |
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12/19/2012 11:11:04 PM · #787 |
Originally posted by sfalice:
At least one unicorn was off duty tonight...
or was there some other reason for this one? Just kids fooling around? |
Unicorns are fantasy. As is the thought that you could have prevented this with anything but the most stringent gun laws.
This was a shotgun, a single shot from the sound of it, and that's quite EXACTLY what most people have been saying that they're NOT trying to ban.
I'll say it again,
I really would be all for MAJOR and HEAVY restrictions on firearms, ran as a five year pilot. The weapons I own could be stored by the state until the trial period was up. If at the end of the trial period, the statistics were clearly in favor of bans, then I would accept that.
The problem that I have is that you want to run a great social experiment, which I think is destined to fail, but without any way of reversing the loss of rights should the experiment prove to have little to no effect. THAT is what I fear.
Would you, today, support the same TSA that we put in place ten years ago? If you say yes, then I have to seriously question either your intelligence, sanity, or honesty. |
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12/19/2012 11:22:12 PM · #788 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by sfalice:
At least one unicorn was off duty tonight...
or was there some other reason for this one? Just kids fooling around? |
Unicorns are fantasy. As is the thought that you could have prevented this with anything but the most stringent gun laws.
This was a shotgun, a single shot from the sound of it, and that's quite EXACTLY what most people have been saying that they're NOT trying to ban.
I'll say it again,
I really would be all for MAJOR and HEAVY restrictions on firearms, ran as a five year pilot. The weapons I own could be stored by the state until the trial period was up. If at the end of the trial period, the statistics were clearly in favor of bans, then I would accept that.
The problem that I have is that you want to run a great social experiment, which I think is destined to fail, but without any way of reversing the loss of rights should the experiment prove to have little to no effect. THAT is what I fear.
Would you, today, support the same TSA that we put in place ten years ago? If you say yes, then I have to seriously question either your intelligence, sanity, or honesty. |
Cory, you're maybe getting your protagonists mixed up. I'm one of those who are just asking for proficiency testing and licensing & safekeeping of guns; not prohibition of all weapons.
Regarding those unicorns. Just reusing a phrase used a couple of posts ago by Cowboy.
And while I'm here, I'll continue, and address Cowboy, whose service to our country I appreciate. His experience in the field of the military was necessary & got him home alive. And besides, I'll never forget the image he made around the 38th parallel. It was compelling one.
The TSA? that's a red herring of the first water, to mix a few metaphors. and fodder for another thread. |
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12/19/2012 11:25:35 PM · #789 |
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm-columns/features/criminals-and-the-guns-they-carry/
Interesting article: Some take-aways:
Originally posted by "Article":
"The most recent 85 firearms taken from criminals by his agency:
67 were handguns
13 revolvers
52 semi-automatic pistols
1 Derringer
1 illegally-converted fully automatic machine pistol
11 were rifles
4 bolt actions
7 semi-automatic rifles
7 were shotguns
4 pump actions
3 single shots or double barrels
Of those:
Unloaded-24 (28%)
Less than fully-loaded-4 (5%)
Loaded with the wrong caliber ammunition-2 (2%)
Loading status unknown-6 (7%)
Fully Loaded-49 (57%)
Previous research conducted by the Bureau of Justice Statistics tells us that in all criminal victimizations with firearms; only 11 percent of the victims were shot or shot at. When criminal attacks with all weapons (knives, clubs, etc.) are included, less than one percent of armed criminal victimizations resulted in a gunshot wound. These statistics have always been puzzling to me. Why aren̢۪t more people getting shot by criminals?
Now I know the answer. The criminals̢۪ weapons won̢۪t fire! Let̢۪s break down the numbers again: Out of 85 weapons seized:
24 are not loaded
2 are not loaded with the correct ammunition
9 are completely broken
Combine those facts and you will see that 41 percent of the weapons we seize from criminals are completely non-functional!"
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Note that 7 out of 85 would be potentially covered by an assault rifle ban (and it's VERY unlikely that all 7 were assault style rifles).
Note that there's about a 40% chance that the weapon that is being pointed at you by a shaking criminal will not work if they pull the trigger. (Note that almost all non-gun weapons are 100% functional, ie. it's hard to put the wrong ammo in a knife)...
Basically, what I'm saying is that you folks who think an assault rifle ban, or any reasonable measures for that matter, won't make any significant difference. If you want a difference, then you need to really advocate for a massive ban, with heavy criminal penalties for anyone caught with a gun, especially handguns as they are easily concealed and are preferred by criminals.
Again, let's try it - full ban, five years. Just make sure that I can get my very expensive and rather sentimentally important weapons back once we realize that it's not working as planned.
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12/19/2012 11:30:50 PM · #790 |
Originally posted by sfalice:
Cory, you're maybe getting your protagonists mixed up. I'm one of those who are just asking for proficiency testing and licensing & safekeeping of guns; not prohibition of all weapons.
Regarding those unicorns. Just reusing a phrase used a couple of posts ago by Cowboy.
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The TSA? that's a red herring of the first water, to mix a few metaphors. and fodder for another thread. |
And I think that any half-measures are worse than full measures, because then you can blame the failure on "not enough" instead of recognizing that the entire solution is flawed.
I'm the one calling for a full ban, as I think it's the only potential solution, but have serious doubts that it would do anything but hurt the situation.
You do know that Mexico already has gun laws that are VERY similar to what you propose? And of course, we see how well that's been going for them. |
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12/19/2012 11:31:38 PM · #791 |
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12/19/2012 11:34:39 PM · #792 |
Sooo....
Can I take a moment to point out (again) that it appears at this point an argument of straw men being beaten to death? It seems we tend to get stuck in the argument mindset and don't know how to get out.
This happened to me with a family member tonight. We disagreed on gun control but on mental health we were in agreement. In an attempt to stop the argument I tried to offer up more information on mental health, basically expounding upon our agreed upon territory.
Problem is, he didn't realize that and just kept arguing with me in a way that was totally nonsensical and had nothing to do with what I was saying.
My point being, I'm seeing that here.
So it would be kinda cool... to see everyone take a few deep breaths and reassess. |
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12/19/2012 11:35:20 PM · #793 |
| and while your at it you not only ban all guns for five years, but you improve social conditions, and services for the people who cant afford it and give people a reason to live and with food and water and amenities and a roof over head at the same time... yep im sure that would definitely work wonders... by way make it only 5 years why not make it the goal long term? hmmm now theres an interesting idea...wow we could call it progress! ;O) now wouldnt that be something! |
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12/19/2012 11:35:54 PM · #794 |
YUP!!!!! You said it exactly.
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Sooo....
Can I take a moment to point out (again) that it appears at this point an argument of straw men being beaten to death?
Problem is, he didn't realize that and just kept arguing with me in a way that was totally nonsensical and had nothing to do with what I was saying.
My point being, I'm seeing that here.
So it would be kinda cool... to see everyone take a few deep breaths and reassess. |
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12/19/2012 11:35:58 PM · #795 |
Seriously, first you say " this needs to occur often enough to affect enough people to turn the voting over", then you call us insensitive? It boggles the mind. |
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12/19/2012 11:38:00 PM · #796 |
Originally posted by GAP2012:
and while your at it you not only ban all guns for five years, but you improve social conditions, and services for the people who cant afford it and give people a reason to live and with food and water and amenities and a roof over head at the same time... yep im sure that would definitely work wonders... by way make it only 5 years why not make it the goal long term? hmmm now theres an interesting idea...wow we could call it progress! ;O) now wouldnt that be something! |
Rainbows. Unicorns.
Perhaps one day the world will be like this. But it ain't gonna happen in five, or even fifty years. |
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12/19/2012 11:41:10 PM · #797 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Sooo....
Can I take a moment to point out (again) that it appears at this point an argument of straw men being beaten to death? It seems we tend to get stuck in the argument mindset and don't know how to get out.
This happened to me with a family member tonight. We disagreed on gun control but on mental health we were in agreement. In an attempt to stop the argument I tried to offer up more information on mental health, basically expounding upon our agreed upon territory.
Problem is, he didn't realize that and just kept arguing with me in a way that was totally nonsensical and had nothing to do with what I was saying.
My point being, I'm seeing that here.
So it would be kinda cool... to see everyone take a few deep breaths and reassess. |
unfortunately some people cant relate to rational thoughtful insightful discussion and get bogged down in emotion and sentiment of beliefs based on unthought out arguments based on indoctrination... so it gets harder to calm them down to a place where they can re-exaimine their thoughts and belief system and where it came from and comes from, you cant inform or educate someone who doesnt want to think for themselves? |
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12/19/2012 11:43:49 PM · #798 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by GAP2012:
and while your at it you not only ban all guns for five years, but you improve social conditions, and services for the people who cant afford it and give people a reason to live and with food and water and amenities and a roof over head at the same time... yep im sure that would definitely work wonders... by way make it only 5 years why not make it the goal long term? hmmm now theres an interesting idea...wow we could call it progress! ;O) now wouldnt that be something! |
Rainbows. Unicorns.
Perhaps one day the world will be like this. But it ain't gonna happen in five, or even fifty years. |
the problem it wont because people are stuck in the way we've always done it and thought about it mode... and thats why the world is a mess, because of trying to fix it people want to stay in apathy until things are beyond ridiculous and someone takes action to turn it around! plenty of those in history that we supposedly learnt from... |
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12/19/2012 11:45:05 PM · #799 |
Originally posted by PGerst:
YUP!!!!! You said it exactly.
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Sooo....
Can I take a moment to point out (again) that it appears at this point an argument of straw men being beaten to death?
Problem is, he didn't realize that and just kept arguing with me in a way that was totally nonsensical and had nothing to do with what I was saying.
My point being, I'm seeing that here.
So it would be kinda cool... to see everyone take a few deep breaths and reassess. |
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 Escapetooz &  Pgerst, I agree. So, as we used to say in the old days, "over and out." |
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12/19/2012 11:48:45 PM · #800 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Sooo....
Can I take a moment to point out ... |
I totally agree. If we can fix the reason that people feel that this sort of act is a solution to some problem, then we will be golden.
The problem, as I see it, is that until we are willing to accept locking the mad ones away, or forcing medication upon them, then we have little choice.
The issue is that most of these mass killers were just everyday troubled losers, so unless we are willing to take extreme measures, they will nearly always slip through the cracks and they will still kill.
So, we have three options:
1. Status Quo
2. Extreme mental health assessments and institutionalization/forced medication of a large population.
3. Full gun ban, without exception.
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As I see it, here are the merits of each:
1. Low cost - actual statistical risk to life is very low to all citizens.
2. No more dealing with the looney ones in daily life
3. Guns ARE used in 70%+ of murders, clearly this will make it harder to kill
As I see it, here are the major problems with each:
1. Shit continues to happen just like it is happening today
2. Public outcry - real fear of being locked away for life because you are different
3. Public outcry - criminals may actually become more of a problem once they are certain citizens are not armed.
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So, what's the best option? What do we do?
As I said previously, I'd only support a FULL ban on weapons, no half-measures, and I would only support that if the law required real improvement within five years, or was removed with prejudice, and return of all property.
I would also never support locking up all the mentally ill, but nothing short of this could really remove the threat.
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My point, in the end, is really this: We live in a risky world, and that's not going to change anytime soon. My advice would be to either accept the risk, and live our lives free, or to do as much as we possibly can to remove all risk, and then hope that our masters care for us well. |
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