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12/16/2012 10:41:04 PM · #301 |
| You leave our multi billion dollar drone fleet alone. Be lucky that we havent put the death star on the credit card (yet). |
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12/16/2012 10:46:30 PM · #302 |
Originally posted by yanko:
You leave our multi billion dollar drone fleet alone. Be lucky that we havent put the death star on the credit card (yet). |
It's funny you mention the Death Star as i was just thinking about that today. We all quite happily live on the Death Star. I like it myself. It's pretty damn comfy! |
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12/16/2012 10:53:13 PM · #303 |
Originally posted by rooum:
'Oh, all those deaths? All the civilians and children? Don't worry about them. It's a 'war' you see. Completely legit. What's that? What are the wars fighting? Oh, i don't think you need to worry about that. It's complicated but you can be reassured that they are for 'the good of the people'. Yea, for peace and democracy and that. Yea, honest. Casualties? Nahh! That doesn't happen. Or, maybe collateral damage. What's that? People are shooting and killing other people? Well, there is a test we do. To find out if the people who were killed matter. It's a simple test really. Email me and i'll send you a PDF. You don't want to get too upset about the wrong people after all. Anyway, it's nearly Christmas. Have fun!' |
They aren't covered the way the other shootings are. I'm sure most people don't even know. I honestly didn't until some picture was circulating around facebook today. It's sad, but it's true. I don't think we lack to ability to empathize with those in other countries, we just don't get the heart-string tugging stories on it in mass media that we really should because you'd have a hell of a lot more people opposing war.
It's easy to ignore when it's numbers in a land far away. Start passing photos of victims around, stories, it becomes more real. |
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12/16/2012 11:12:14 PM · #304 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by rooum:
'Oh, all those deaths? All the civilians and children? Don't worry about them. It's a 'war' you see. Completely legit. What's that? What are the wars fighting? Oh, i don't think you need to worry about that. It's complicated but you can be reassured that they are for 'the good of the people'. Yea, for peace and democracy and that. Yea, honest. Casualties? Nahh! That doesn't happen. Or, maybe collateral damage. What's that? People are shooting and killing other people? Well, there is a test we do. To find out if the people who were killed matter. It's a simple test really. Email me and i'll send you a PDF. You don't want to get too upset about the wrong people after all. Anyway, it's nearly Christmas. Have fun!' |
They aren't covered the way the other shootings are. I'm sure most people don't even know. I honestly didn't until some picture was circulating around facebook today. It's sad, but it's true. I don't think we lack to ability to empathize with those in other countries, we just don't get the heart-string tugging stories on it in mass media that we really should because you'd have a hell of a lot more people opposing war.
It's easy to ignore when it's numbers in a land far away. Start passing photos of victims around, stories, it becomes more real. |
My point, really, was that it is kind of embedded. A culture of praising murder is there. The Western countries, and really America most of all, often worships its military above all over institutions. I'm just saying it's there. And i'm saying that, to a sane person it is obscenely hypocritical. To a troubled, unhinged mind that hypocrisy might be an obvious factor in a nihilistic and murderous mindset. It's essentially 'do as we say don't do as we do'. Just saying.
Message edited by author 2012-12-16 23:13:07. |
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12/16/2012 11:21:06 PM · #305 |
Originally posted by rooum:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by rooum:
'Oh, all those deaths? All the civilians and children? Don't worry about them. It's a 'war' you see. Completely legit. What's that? What are the wars fighting? Oh, i don't think you need to worry about that. It's complicated but you can be reassured that they are for 'the good of the people'. Yea, for peace and democracy and that. Yea, honest. Casualties? Nahh! That doesn't happen. Or, maybe collateral damage. What's that? People are shooting and killing other people? Well, there is a test we do. To find out if the people who were killed matter. It's a simple test really. Email me and i'll send you a PDF. You don't want to get too upset about the wrong people after all. Anyway, it's nearly Christmas. Have fun!' |
They aren't covered the way the other shootings are. I'm sure most people don't even know. I honestly didn't until some picture was circulating around facebook today. It's sad, but it's true. I don't think we lack to ability to empathize with those in other countries, we just don't get the heart-string tugging stories on it in mass media that we really should because you'd have a hell of a lot more people opposing war.
It's easy to ignore when it's numbers in a land far away. Start passing photos of victims around, stories, it becomes more real. |
My point, really, was that it is kind of embedded. A culture of praising murder is there. The Western countries, and really America most of all, often worships its military above all over institutions. I'm just saying it's there. And i'm saying that, to a sane person it is obscenely hypocritical. To a troubled, unhinged mind that hypocrisy might be an obvious factor in a nihilistic and murderous mindset. It's essentially 'do as we say don't do as we do'. Just saying. |
I did understand that, and I agree with you. I was just trying to point out that it's not necessarily a flaw of the individual or an uncaring populous, but rather a group of people being manipulated by the media/govt. that have not woken up to the truth yet. |
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12/16/2012 11:29:57 PM · #306 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by rooum:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by rooum:
'Oh, all those deaths? All the civilians and children? Don't worry about them. It's a 'war' you see. Completely legit. What's that? What are the wars fighting? Oh, i don't think you need to worry about that. It's complicated but you can be reassured that they are for 'the good of the people'. Yea, for peace and democracy and that. Yea, honest. Casualties? Nahh! That doesn't happen. Or, maybe collateral damage. What's that? People are shooting and killing other people? Well, there is a test we do. To find out if the people who were killed matter. It's a simple test really. Email me and i'll send you a PDF. You don't want to get too upset about the wrong people after all. Anyway, it's nearly Christmas. Have fun!' |
They aren't covered the way the other shootings are. I'm sure most people don't even know. I honestly didn't until some picture was circulating around facebook today. It's sad, but it's true. I don't think we lack to ability to empathize with those in other countries, we just don't get the heart-string tugging stories on it in mass media that we really should because you'd have a hell of a lot more people opposing war.
It's easy to ignore when it's numbers in a land far away. Start passing photos of victims around, stories, it becomes more real. |
My point, really, was that it is kind of embedded. A culture of praising murder is there. The Western countries, and really America most of all, often worships its military above all over institutions. I'm just saying it's there. And i'm saying that, to a sane person it is obscenely hypocritical. To a troubled, unhinged mind that hypocrisy might be an obvious factor in a nihilistic and murderous mindset. It's essentially 'do as we say don't do as we do'. Just saying. |
I did understand that, and I agree with you. I was just trying to point out that it's not necessarily a flaw of the individual or an uncaring populous, but rather a group of people being manipulated by the media/govt. that have not woken up to the truth yet. |
Yep. Agree with you there. :) |
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12/16/2012 11:31:20 PM · #307 |
Originally posted by rooum:
My point, really, was that it is kind of embedded. A culture of praising murder is there. The Western countries, and really America most of all, often worships its military above all over institutions. I'm just saying it's there. And i'm saying that, to a sane person it is obscenely hypocritical. To a troubled, unhinged mind that hypocrisy might be an obvious factor in a nihilistic and murderous mindset. It's essentially 'do as we say don't do as we do'. Just saying. |
You bring up an extremely valid point.
In Iraq, the lowball estimates are approximately 110,000 innocents killed since the war started, yet there's little outrage compared to the events of last week. To date, 4486 American soldiers have died in Iraq and they get more media coverage even though 24X more innocents have been killed. Significant dichotomy as to where our values lie. The soldiers signed up to be put in harms way whereas the innocents did not, and they're not even a footnote anymore.
So my question is why does the death of those 27 who perished last week bring everyone out, but the continued violence on innocents in Iraq has most people staying mum? |
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12/16/2012 11:42:51 PM · #308 |
Originally posted by Venser:
So my question is why does the death of those 27 who perished last week bring everyone out, but the continued violence on innocents in Iraq has most people staying mum? |
Well, i was also thinking of the children who were killed in Gaza recently. Lots of children get killed in Gaza-it's a city of children (average age of population is around 80% under 25).
But it's an obvious answer really. It's because it is near to home. Just the last couple of months there was a young girl went missing in my part of Wales. Everyone was out looking for days, weeks. Just that one four year old girl. the community was distraught. I really felt it and it was/is terrible.
The simple answer is that it's one of our own.
And, really, as human beings, there is nothing wrong with that. We just need to extend the empathy (not sympathy-there is a difference) |
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12/16/2012 11:49:15 PM · #309 |
I've made this point previously in another forum regarding firearms and am going to make it once more and then leave. Why? Because frankly I cannot be bothered with posts going back and forth with the 'people kill people' brigade. So, here goes...
Might I suggest that those in favour of unfettered gun ownership do a little research. Impartial figures are relatively easy to come by from (in Australia) the Bureau of Statistics and its equivalent agencies in other 'first-world' countries. The argument is often made (and has been made here yet again) that if guns are not freely available then tragic violent crimes will still occur - only the victims will be attacked with knifes, cars, iron bars, fertilizer bombs etc etc. Problem is, the statistics don't bear this out. Sure, in non-gun cultures such as here in Australia, the UK etc, awful crimes such bashings, stabbings, bombings, rapes etc DO occur and DO on occasion result in lives being lost. HOWEVER, these non-gun crimes also occur in the US at more or less the same rates. So, all the guns in the world AREN'T preventing these sorts of non-gun crimes. The difference however is that IN ADDITION to these non-gun crimes there are also an ENORMOUS number of gun-related crimes in the US, whereas the number of gun crimes elsewhere is miniscule by comparison. Why? Simple - availability of firearms! Please, wake up and inform yourselves.
Q.
Message edited by author 2012-12-16 23:51:28. |
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12/16/2012 11:55:05 PM · #310 |
Originally posted by Venser:
why does the death of those 27 who perished last week bring everyone out, but the continued violence on innocents in Iraq has most people staying mum? |
Whether or not we accept the harsh realities of collateral damage, Newtown CT was not a war zone. |
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12/16/2012 11:56:25 PM · #311 |
Well put. As I said earlier on in this thread:
People kill people with guns, because they can.
Originally posted by Qiki:
I've made this point previously in another forum regarding firearms and am going to make it once more and then leave. Why? Because frankly I cannot be bothered with posts going back and forth with the 'people kill people' brigade.
...
Why? Simple - availability of firearms! Please, wake up and inform yourselves.
Q. |
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12/17/2012 12:36:08 AM · #312 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Venser:
why does the death of those 27 who perished last week bring everyone out, but the continued violence on innocents in Iraq has most people staying mum? |
Whether or not we accept the harsh realities of collateral damage, Newtown CT was not a war zone. |
Quite. But that's the point being made isn't it. The fact that one atrocity is ignored, or accepted or even celebrated whilst another is abhored is, i think, something to explore along with other things like ...gun control...approches to mental illness....the media. Someone mentioned above about a 'holistic' look at the problem that western countries have with violence in society. The idea that any holistic approach can leave out the influence of the military/wars etc is bonkers. Society is society afar all. |
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12/17/2012 01:26:43 AM · #313 |
Originally posted by rooum:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Newtown CT was not a war zone. |
But that's the point being made isn't it. The fact that one atrocity is ignored, or accepted or even celebrated whilst another is abhored is, i think, something to explore... |
Casualties in a war zone are neither ignored nor celebrated so much as an unfortunate inevitability in a war environment. Casualties in a peaceful community where there is no threat or battle are an unexpected shock, just as a terrorist bombing or embassy attack would be regardless of country. It is all the more shocking when civilians and especially children are the intended target. In either setting, major events make headlines (like the family targeted by U.S. soldiers in Iraq or the border post mixup in Pakistan) while smaller, more common incidents are limited to local news. We have spent literally billions of dollars creating smarter weapons and policies to at least mitigate collateral damage in war zones, yet we have been unwilling to make that same effort to reduce thousands of deaths a year inflicted upon ourselves at peace. We lose more Americans to domestic gun violence EACH YEAR than in Iraq and Afghanistan combined. This is not a necessary price of freedom but the painful cost of inaction and paranoia. |
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12/17/2012 06:03:28 AM · #314 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by rooum:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Newtown CT was not a war zone. |
But that's the point being made isn't it. The fact that one atrocity is ignored, or accepted or even celebrated whilst another is abhored is, i think, something to explore... |
Casualties in a war zone are neither ignored nor celebrated so much as an unfortunate inevitability in a war environment. Casualties in a peaceful community where there is no threat or battle are an unexpected shock, just as a terrorist bombing or embassy attack would be regardless of country. It is all the more shocking when civilians and especially children are the intended target. In either setting, major events make headlines (like the family targeted by U.S. soldiers in Iraq or the border post mixup in Pakistan) while smaller, more common incidents are limited to local news. We have spent literally billions of dollars creating smarter weapons and policies to at least mitigate collateral damage in war zones, yet we have been unwilling to make that same effort to reduce thousands of deaths a year inflicted upon ourselves at peace. We lose more Americans to domestic gun violence EACH YEAR than in Iraq and Afghanistan combined. This is not a necessary price of freedom but the painful cost of inaction and paranoia. |
I don't really disagree with you at all here (although i'd say deaths in a war zone are often celebrated or ignored) but it's all beside the point i was making which is the simple fact that we live in extremely violent aggressive nations and that violence permeates all through them.
Message edited by author 2012-12-17 06:06:44. |
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12/17/2012 09:28:07 AM · #315 |
Originally posted by rooum:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by rooum:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Newtown CT was not a war zone. |
But that's the point being made isn't it. The fact that one atrocity is ignored, or accepted or even celebrated whilst another is abhored is, i think, something to explore... |
Casualties in a war zone are neither ignored nor celebrated so much as an unfortunate inevitability in a war environment. Casualties in a peaceful community where there is no threat or battle are an unexpected shock, just as a terrorist bombing or embassy attack would be regardless of country. It is all the more shocking when civilians and especially children are the intended target. In either setting, major events make headlines (like the family targeted by U.S. soldiers in Iraq or the border post mixup in Pakistan) while smaller, more common incidents are limited to local news. We have spent literally billions of dollars creating smarter weapons and policies to at least mitigate collateral damage in war zones, yet we have been unwilling to make that same effort to reduce thousands of deaths a year inflicted upon ourselves at peace. We lose more Americans to domestic gun violence EACH YEAR than in Iraq and Afghanistan combined. This is not a necessary price of freedom but the painful cost of inaction and paranoia. |
I don't really disagree with you at all here (although i'd say deaths in a war zone are often celebrated or ignored) but it's all beside the point i was making which is the simple fact that we live in extremely violent aggressive nations and that violence permeates all through them. |
If you are trying to make the point that powerful nations that carry out wars somehow cosmically reap what they sow at home, or it somehow serves us right, its not the best point to make. |
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12/17/2012 10:03:28 AM · #316 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Originally posted by rooum:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by rooum:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Newtown CT was not a war zone. |
But that's the point being made isn't it. The fact that one atrocity is ignored, or accepted or even celebrated whilst another is abhored is, i think, something to explore... |
Casualties in a war zone are neither ignored nor celebrated so much as an unfortunate inevitability in a war environment. Casualties in a peaceful community where there is no threat or battle are an unexpected shock, just as a terrorist bombing or embassy attack would be regardless of country. It is all the more shocking when civilians and especially children are the intended target. In either setting, major events make headlines (like the family targeted by U.S. soldiers in Iraq or the border post mixup in Pakistan) while smaller, more common incidents are limited to local news. We have spent literally billions of dollars creating smarter weapons and policies to at least mitigate collateral damage in war zones, yet we have been unwilling to make that same effort to reduce thousands of deaths a year inflicted upon ourselves at peace. We lose more Americans to domestic gun violence EACH YEAR than in Iraq and Afghanistan combined. This is not a necessary price of freedom but the painful cost of inaction and paranoia. |
I don't really disagree with you at all here (although i'd say deaths in a war zone are often celebrated or ignored) but it's all beside the point i was making which is the simple fact that we live in extremely violent aggressive nations and that violence permeates all through them. |
If you are trying to make the point that powerful nations that carry out wars somehow cosmically reap what they sow at home, or it somehow serves us right, its not the best point to make. |
I can't see how anyone would read what i've written and come to that conclusion but, no, of course i'm not. That's ridiculous. (rolls eyes)
Message edited by author 2012-12-17 10:12:21. |
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12/17/2012 10:31:37 AM · #317 |
Anyway, i'll attempt to move the discussion back to somewhere near where it was before i derailed it slightly...
Some interesting points here regarding that blog post...
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12/17/2012 10:37:39 AM · #318 |
| Our high school is currently under lockdown after a suspicious man with a gun was spotted nearby. My daughter is there. I'm sure we'll be dealing with things like this for a long time. |
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12/17/2012 10:45:19 AM · #319 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Our high school is currently under lockdown after a suspicious man with a gun was spotted nearby. My daughter is there. I'm sure we'll be dealing with things like this for a long time. |
I'm sorry to hear that. It is a contagion, that I believe. |
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12/17/2012 11:17:33 AM · #320 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Our high school is currently under lockdown after a suspicious man with a gun was spotted nearby. My daughter is there. I'm sure we'll be dealing with things like this for a long time. |
:( |
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12/17/2012 11:18:32 AM · #321 |
Originally posted by PGerst:
Very poor comparison. It makes no sense to make these sort of comparisons, they are not even remotely close to each other. Hopefully, those who will be arguing over this in the legislature know better.
Originally posted by Spork99:
If he had instead taken his mother's car and driven through the playground at recess, would you discuss banning cars? |
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Why not? The monstrosity of the act and the carnage would be as great or greater, yet in one case people are willing to blame the person, in another, the tool. |
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12/17/2012 11:19:12 AM · #322 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Our high school is currently under lockdown after a suspicious man with a gun was spotted nearby. My daughter is there. I'm sure we'll be dealing with things like this for a long time. |
:( |
Seems as though we've done this before.
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12/17/2012 11:20:18 AM · #323 |
Originally posted by yanko:
You leave our multi billion dollar drone fleet alone. Be lucky that we havent put the death star on the credit card (yet). |
Have to keep up with the Chinese and their drone fleet. |
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12/17/2012 11:27:04 AM · #324 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Our high school is currently under lockdown after a suspicious man with a gun was spotted nearby. My daughter is there. I'm sure we'll be dealing with things like this for a long time. |
That's awful. Really sorry to hear that. I hope all is well and your daughter and her school friends are not too traumatised by it. |
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12/17/2012 11:27:56 AM · #325 |
Dood...
Out of context. I believe that photo is from Duck and Cover. If so, not an even close comparison.
Apologies if I'm wrong.
Originally posted by Cory:
Seems as though we've done this before.
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