Ethical dispute erupts over NYC subway photo.

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12/05/2012 08:09:49 PM · #51

Originally posted by alohadave:

Originally posted by MinsoPhoto:
Why did that photo need to be taken, what good will it do anyone besides sell papers? Why do people even want to look at those types of images? It isn't war photography, not riots, not anything that needed to be shown. The family of the man now gets to see him moments before death, alone plastered all over the Internet and media. Hindsight is 20/20 but if I am ever in that situation I hope my first instinct is not to start taking photos.

What makes war photography more acceptable? They are both covering something tragic, and in many cases, the imminent death of the subject.

If you can't make a difference by helping out, help out by documenting the events. You may not find it tasteful, but you don't know what impact the pictures could have.

Yeah but when is the last time you saw a war image on the front page of the paper? And the tag line is ridiculous, it is obvious they were just looking to make a buck.

David Ey

Nikon D80

12/05/2012 09:58:07 PM · #52

Originally posted by bvy:

One photo and a bunch of (mostly conflicting) eyewitness accounts, and we have enough information to pass judgment. I think not.

In the heat of crisis, 22 seconds goes by in a flash.

22 seconds is a HELL of a lot of time.

ambaker

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12/05/2012 10:18:14 PM · #53

22 seconds isn't much, but in a crisis it seems like an eternity. Whether he could have dropped the camera, and gotten to the victim in time remains to be seen. I'd like to think I would at least try. But then over 40 years of training and drills for crisis scenarios (hopefully) makes my response different.

Three lives were altered forever by one thoughtless act. The victim lost his life, the photographer will always be that guy, "who didn't", no matter whether he could have, or not. And of course the guy who pushed the victim will probably spend a good bit of the rest of his life in jail, and forever be that guy, "who pushed that guy".

I do not believe the newspaper had a valid ethical reason for running the image. Images should have, and were, provided to law enforcement. That is the only valid use I see for those images.

I do see them differently than war images. War images brought Vietnam Nam into the living room and, I believe, helped shorten the war. As one who has fought, and does not believe war should be glorified, I believe it is fair to show the real price of armed conflict.

All this image showed, was a helpless man about to die.

bohemka

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12/05/2012 10:37:13 PM · #54

It's disgusting from every angle.

The photographer wasn't trying to help, so he should just stop pretending otherwise. In all the photos I've seen, no one tried to help, despite many people being closer according to the photographer. I haven't read anything about an alarm or safety system that could have notified the driver.

Twenty-two seconds is a long time when you have to pull a person up onto a ledge. It's not that everybody on the platform ran out of time; nobody tried.

If he had ran as fast as he could have in the direction the train was traveling, he maybe had the time to get far enough toward the end of the platform that an alerted driver could have stopped. Or maybe he didn't run because he thought someone might give him a hand.

NY Post isn't exactly known for tact or integrity, so their behavior is true to form.

In addition to the three folks that

ambaker mentioned, there's also a wife and daughter left alone in the world, in a foreign land no less.

Such a soul-killing example of heartlessness all around.

alohadave

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12/05/2012 10:39:20 PM · #55

Originally posted by MinsoPhoto:

Originally posted by alohadave:

Originally posted by MinsoPhoto:
Why did that photo need to be taken, what good will it do anyone besides sell papers? Why do people even want to look at those types of images? It isn't war photography, not riots, not anything that needed to be shown. The family of the man now gets to see him moments before death, alone plastered all over the Internet and media. Hindsight is 20/20 but if I am ever in that situation I hope my first instinct is not to start taking photos.

What makes war photography more acceptable? They are both covering something tragic, and in many cases, the imminent death of the subject.

If you can't make a difference by helping out, help out by documenting the events. You may not find it tasteful, but you don't know what impact the pictures could have.

Yeah but when is the last time you saw a war image on the front page of the paper? And the tag line is ridiculous, it is obvious they were just looking to make a buck.

Yes, the tagline is obnoxious, from my understanding, it's a fairly tabloid oriented paper.

Regarding the picture placement, that's not what your original point was addressing (and it's not something that a photographer has control or input into). You state that war or riot photographs are more worthy of being shot and shown, when they can show similar scenes of imminent death.

HawkinsT

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12/05/2012 11:00:01 PM · #56

Originally posted by alohadave:

You state that war or riot photographs are more worthy of being shot and shown, when they can show similar scenes of imminent death.

Of course they are, and there are some many examples as to why, e.g. the US pulled out of Vietnam largely due to the negative press generated by the photographs taken there. I'm sure I can find as many specific examples as you want of photographs changing the world... Showing someone about to be hit by a train after being pushed isn't one of them though.

Cory

Canon EOS-1D Mark IV

Canon EF 85mm f/1.2L II USM

12/05/2012 11:06:56 PM · #57

Originally posted by bohemka:

If he had ran as fast as he could have in the direction the train was traveling, he maybe had the time to get far enough toward the end of the platform that an alerted driver could have stopped. Or maybe he didn't run because he thought someone might give him a hand.

N

Have you noticed that safety was really only 5 feet behind him? Sad.

HarveyG

Nikon D800

Sigma 120-300mm f/2.8 EX APO IF HSM for Nikon

12/06/2012 12:50:25 AM · #58

The publishing of the image was imo irresponsible. Everything else can be debated to death; should he have helped, was he really warning the train driver with his flash, street war/photography 101, why did the victim freeze and not run down the track or not lay down. Who knows?

What I have always contended is why trains (a train is the combination of locomotive and the wagons pulled behind it) are allowed to travel at relative high speeds through a station. I believe that they should crawl through stations. Yes there are needs for freight and expresses to travel at high speed through smaller stations but then automatic railings like those in front of horses at the gate at races or moto-cross that drop out the way could be installed to prevent accidents or deliberate acts like this.

UrfaK

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12/06/2012 01:11:22 AM · #59

I don't think the photographer realized the severity of the situation at the time. People live in their Disney bubbles and he probably expected the man to be saved somehow with someone else doing the hero's job or the train stopping at the very last moment. It would have been an iconic shot if there were 5 people pulling the man out and unfortunately no one turned up which makes the photograph sadder.

While 22 seconds are long enough to evacuate a plane sometimes you don't realize what's going on when you're faced with an improbable situation. I saw a man get shot on an extremely busy road and it took me five minutes to realize what had happened though my view was obstructed which didn't help. I heard loud bangs which made me turn around (I thought it was an electrical explosion). There was a dog barking that made me think someone was hurting the dog and then I heard a man screaming louder than I have ever heard my entire life. The bangs continued and I eliminated the explosion theory in my head. Then one my friends whispered that it would be best if we got on the ground because we might get hit and that's when it finally clicked. And the thing was the traffic was really fierce so the whole thing happened in front of so many motorists and nobody noticed a robbery in progress.

docpjv

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12/06/2012 01:37:20 AM · #60

And what may I ask, about the Pulitzer Price Winner's famous image of the vulture closing in on a dying little girl? Ethics are far removed from reality, the real truth and the facts. Give the man a break, go after the animal who committed the crime.

NathanWert

Canon EOS-90D

Sigma 18-250mm f/3.5-6.3 DC OS HSM

12/06/2012 02:00:13 PM · #61

As a Firefighter/EMT I've seen all sorts of horrific things (and taken photos of them for documentation purposes). I've also printed numerous autopsy photos at a lab I worked at. While the images never seem to bother me (I don't really see the subject I see the composition). I have a unique history that most people don't.

As for the ethics of photographing vs helping: people nowadays are afraid to help others because we keep hearing about those people that end up hurt or killed when they try to step in. The world is a dangerous place nowadays. I refuse to pass judgement on this photographer. In the same situation I might have taken photos too...but with my training I'd probably have helped first THEN photographed. But I can only say what I think I'd do. Not someone else. It's unfair for us to pass judgement without being in this persons position.

GeneralE

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12/06/2012 02:05:27 PM · #62

Discussion of this issue coming up momentarily on today's Talk Of The Nation program on NPR. Podcast and transcript should be available this evening.

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS

12/06/2012 02:42:01 PM · #63

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Discussion of this issue coming up momentarily on today's Talk Of The Nation program on NPR. Podcast and transcript should be available this evening.

caught it live; pretty good discussion, quite interesting.

GAP2012

Canon EOS-550D Rebel T2i

12/07/2012 09:30:30 AM · #64

Originally posted by NathanWert:

completely agree +1
and the guy i studied under for my photography course many many years ago in good old film days lol was a forensic photographer who typically took photos of horrific accident and crime scenes and sometimes brought them to class to show us the contrast, grain, texture etc... so fortunately he kept the really graphic stuff away but still i understand your photo composition background ;O) i was 16 then lol so a bit of an eye opener to say the least...

Message edited by author 2012-12-07 09:31:46.

tanguera

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12/07/2012 12:14:27 PM · #65

At the risk of opening a whole other can of worms, what about the victim's actions just before the incident? I certainly do not want to blame the victim, but the video shows him standing extremely close to the pusher, who is vehemently telling him to move away. Instead, the victim's body language seems very casual, but clearly planted there. From the clip, there didn't seem to be any reason for him to not move away, as the platform is practically empty. While it does not excuse what happened next, the victim was, in fact, warned by someone who was clearly agitated, and we must remember that all our own actions and choices have consequences, some more dire than others.

Cory

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12/07/2012 12:37:26 PM · #66

Originally posted by tanguera:

Absolutely.

HarveyG

Nikon D800

Sigma 120-300mm f/2.8 EX APO IF HSM for Nikon

12/09/2012 05:07:14 AM · #67

Rescuing people from falling onto the tracks (and other near tragedies) is well documented and videoed.

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12/09/2012 06:54:12 AM · #68

Originally posted by tanguera:

"Move away from me, or I'll kill ya!"

It may not have been smart to stay there, but the penalty was death?

And by that logic, the penalty for wearing a "way too sexy outfit" is rape? And would this photographer stop it, or film it?

I can see it now...
"I tried to distract the rapist with multiple flashes from the camera"

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

12/09/2012 07:49:55 AM · #69

Originally posted by blindjustice:

I can see it now...
"I tried to distract the rapist with multiple flashes from the camera"

I was not there, have no idea of the time frame involved, where the photographer was located relative to the unfortunate victim and a host of other factors associated with this incident.

My lack of information on the matter is such that I simply cannot condemn the photographer for the perceived lack of action.

Ray

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

12/09/2012 08:35:46 AM · #70

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by blindjustice:

I can see it now...
"I tried to distract the rapist with multiple flashes from the camera"

I was not there, have no idea of the time frame involved, where the photographer was located relative to the unfortunate victim and a host of other factors associated with this incident.

My lack of information on the matter is such that I simply cannot condemn the photographer for the perceived lack of action.

Ray

I was just bringing it to its absurd conclusion.

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

12/09/2012 11:41:52 AM · #71

Originally posted by blindjustice:

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by blindjustice:

I can see it now...
"I tried to distract the rapist with multiple flashes from the camera"

I was not there, have no idea of the time frame involved, where the photographer was located relative to the unfortunate victim and a host of other factors associated with this incident.

My lack of information on the matter is such that I simply cannot condemn the photographer for the perceived lack of action.

Ray

I was just bringing it to its absurd conclusion.

Oh OK... we really ought to have a "Sarcasm" icon doohickey thing. :O)

Thanks for clearing that up.

Ray

HarveyG

Nikon D800

Sigma 120-300mm f/2.8 EX APO IF HSM for Nikon

12/09/2012 01:27:13 PM · #72

Stir the pot?