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12/05/2012 04:22:56 PM · #451 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Except it was about the whole "god" thing... |
The "god" thing was only added on June 14, 1954. There were many attempts prior, but it's only after Eisenhower discovered "god" himself did he push to get this put in. |
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12/05/2012 04:26:02 PM · #452 |
Originally posted by myqyl:
Originally posted by Cory:
I had the same fight... Except it was about the whole "god" thing... I was pretty sure there wasn't any such thing, and I knew it was wrong to swear myself to something that I didn't believe in.
We never really found any resolution to the issue, other than for me to simply shut up and pretend to participate. |
I was an athiest in my junior year of highschool, and I just left out the "Under God" part... I was kind of ok with the rest of it. |
That's what allows you to be religious, and prevents me I suspect.
I can't see something like a pledge or a bible as a piece-meal ala-carte sort of thing. For me it's all or nothing, I can't swear to "most" of a pledge, and I can't have faith in "most" of something. Probably that seems to black-and-white for you, but nothing else makes any sense to me, as how can you feel ok with just picking and choosing what you prefer from the lot? Doesn't seem to me things should, or really do, work that way. |
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12/05/2012 04:27:26 PM · #453 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
No, that's wrong. I have been taught for years here on Rant that indoctrination is only something that religions do. Everybody else teaches. |
Did you look at my picture? It's not taken in a church ... |
ya, I saw it was a pledge. :) |
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12/05/2012 04:29:26 PM · #454 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
No, that's wrong. I have been taught for years here on Rant that indoctrination is only something that religions do. Everybody else teaches. |
Did you look at my picture? It's not taken in a church ... |
ya, I saw it was a pledge. :) |
So, indoctrination is not something only religions do ... I guess you can learn something new every day. :-) |
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12/05/2012 04:30:03 PM · #455 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
So, indoctrination is not something only religions do ... I guess you can learn something new every day. :-) |
Tell that to some of your buddies...
Message edited by author 2012-12-05 16:30:20. |
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12/05/2012 04:32:11 PM · #456 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
So, indoctrination is not something only religions do ... I guess you can learn something new every day. :-) |
Tell that to some of your buddies... |
Killing isn't something that's limited to gangs and the military either, but they are admittedly both damn good at it.
Indoctrination isn't limited to schools and churches, but I have a pretty darn hard time thinking of any organization who could even possibly claim to be more effective. |
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12/05/2012 04:33:07 PM · #457 |
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by Cory:
Except it was about the whole "god" thing... |
The "god" thing was only added on June 14, 1954. There were many attempts prior, but it's only after Eisenhower discovered "god" himself did he push to get this put in. |
Eisenhower... Don't get me started on Eisenhower... Famously, he once expressed considerable dismay when an advisor told him that 50% of Americans are of below-average intelligence... And so the mythical land of Lake Wobegone was born :-)
Regarding the pledge, I remember well the child on Art Linkletter's "Kids Say the Darndest Things" (from the innocent youth of the television age) who recited the pre-God pledge thusly:
Originally posted by Linkletter Kid:
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one naked individual, with liberty and justice for all! |
Message edited by author 2012-12-05 16:33:50. |
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12/05/2012 04:47:01 PM · #458 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Indoctrination isn't limited to schools and churches, but I have a pretty darn hard time thinking of any organization who could even possibly claim to be more effective. |
Well, duh. What other oganizations are charged with education? Indoctrination, as used on rant, is a garbage word (much like "bigot") to merely indicate "the teaching of things I disagree with". |
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12/05/2012 04:49:23 PM · #459 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Cory:
Indoctrination isn't limited to schools and churches, but I have a pretty darn hard time thinking of any organization who could even possibly claim to be more effective. |
Well, duh. What other oganizations are charged with education? Indoctrination, as used on rant, is a garbage word (much like "bigot") to merely indicate "the teaching of things I disagree with". |
*shrug* You were the one who seemed to think it meant something. ;) |
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12/05/2012 04:50:33 PM · #460 |
| Turn the gain up on your satire-o-meter Cory. Or whack in on the sides a few times... |
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12/05/2012 04:51:35 PM · #461 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Indoctrination, as used on rant, is a garbage word (much like "bigot") to merely indicate "the teaching of things I disagree with". |
Yeah, really.....a garbage word with bad connotations.
World English Dictionary: indoctrinate ΓΆ€” vb
1. to teach (a person or group of people) systematically to accept doctrines, esp uncritically
Imagine that....
Gimme a break. Have you really ever heard it used, or used it in a positive manner?
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12/05/2012 04:53:48 PM · #462 |
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12/05/2012 04:56:15 PM · #463 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Turn the gain up on your satire-o-meter Cory. Or whack in on the sides a few times... |
LOL. :) |
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12/05/2012 05:03:04 PM · #464 |
Originally posted by myqyl:
In fact, I'm not sure how it works in Ireland, but in the US it's pretty hard to get into the Church if you weren't born in. When my wife converted she had to take a year of classes and carefully consider if she really wanted to join before she was accepted (a process called RCIA).
Religion and Politics have melded in Ireland to the detriment of both. Very sad. You are in my prayers. |
tbh, I'm more concerned about the melding of religion and education in Ireland. I envy secular education systems. Let me bore you with some background of 'life in Ireland'.... (and yeah, talk about derailing the thread!)
I'm an Atheist (baptised into the RCC), and neither me nor my wife go to Catholic mass or adhere to the teachings of the RCC. We send our son to a Catholic school. You don't have much choice in this country. In fact, you're kind of locked into Catholicism here, if your child isn't baptised a Catholic, then they can be discriminated against when trying to get into a Catholic school.
Now, I'm not too happy about this at all. There's a priest on the board of governors (as there is on the board of governors of every catholic school) who's job it is to ensure that RC religion forms a core part of the school's ethos. My son's book list this year consisted of the usual english and maths books, together with a book called 'Alive-O', full of drawings of saints for you to colour in, and prayers and stories about Jesus. I asked the teacher if he was going to be getting a Science book. "No, we'll hand out a few photocopied sheets during the year". Basically they're filling the kids heads with RC religious nonsense at the expense of their science education.
When it comes to communion and confirmation all the kids in the class get indoctrinated together. Over here it's mostly about the party and the presents, and most parents freely admit that they don't want their kid to miss out on the fun of the day. After his first communion, we have no intention of bringing him to mass or raising him as a Catholic, it's purely a convenience. In fact, by all accounts, he shouldn't be even getting communion unless we're happy to raise him in the faith. But hey, we don't want him to miss out on the fun, do we?
The RCC is desperate to maintain their position in every part of Irish politics, education, and culture. They won't stand by and let their numbers be eroded (on paper anyway - the congregations are dwindling drastically and many Irish are 'non-practising' and have no interest in the church) Here's an extract from a site that was set up specifically to help people defect;
//www.countmeout.ie/faq/
"Such people wish to send a clear, unambiguous message to the Catholic Church and its hierarchy that they do not wish to remain counted among a congregation into which they were baptised before they could choose for themselves. Moreover, many do not wish to remain as a member of an organisation which has protected those who committed the crimes outlined in the report into child abuse; as they would see it, this would be to give tacit support to the Church hierarchy. Thus for such people, defection is largely a personal, symbolic act but has no less weight for that. It is a matter of principle."
"Others wish to defect as a way of affecting political change. They are angered by the Church's continuing role in the state's Education and Health service and at the soft cultural influence that is revealed in the government's deferent attitude - from the exemptions granted in Section 7 of the Equal Status Act (2000 - 2004) to the introduction of a Blasphemy Law in July 2009 to the compensation deal struck with the religious orders. The goal of such people - a goal that we personally share - is to create a climate in which a more secular Ireland can emerge. They aim to lessen the political and cultural influence of the Roman Catholic Church such that the services of the state cater fairly for people of all faiths and none, and to change the context in which the government operates such that it views the nation as a plurality of people and faiths and not a presumptive Catholic majority." |
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12/05/2012 05:10:00 PM · #465 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Indoctrination, as used on rant, is a garbage word (much like "bigot") to merely indicate "the teaching of things I disagree with". |
Yeah, really.....a garbage word with bad connotations.
World English Dictionary: indoctrinate ΓΆ€” vb
1. to teach (a person or group of people) systematically to accept doctrines, esp uncritically
Imagine that....
Gimme a break. Have you really ever heard it used, or used it in a positive manner? |
Indoctrination exists at all levels of society, worldwide. Without effective indoctrination, there IS no society. Period.
So what Doc's saying is, "IN DPC-LAND, we use "indoctrination" as a code word to represent the teaching of doctrines with which we do not agree." An example of "indoctrination" that would be "correct" or "positive", at least by the standards of most DPC liberals, would be the whole "green movement", and the teaching, for example, that "Whales have rights too!"
Message edited by author 2012-12-05 17:11:12. |
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12/05/2012 05:41:46 PM · #466 |
| Quite right. In addition, children elementary age and below are only capable of limited critical thinking. ALL teaching to a preschooler is, in effect, indoctrination due to the lack of "critical thinking". It would be quite unreasonable to hold the position (which I have seen) that we ought not teach our children the tenets of our faith until they are able to critically judge their merits for themselves. That, to me, is patently absurd. |
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12/05/2012 05:46:32 PM · #467 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Not by your ilk... :D |
Quick! Someone look.....am I actively bleeding???? LOL!!
Ilk.....an other DPC fav!
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12/05/2012 05:48:11 PM · #468 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
So what Doc's saying is, "IN DPC-LAND, we use "indoctrination" as a code word to represent the teaching of doctrines with which we do not agree." |
Um...knew that. Just trying to poke Jason.
He poked me back.....in the ilk.
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12/05/2012 06:04:57 PM · #469 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Not by your ilk... :D |
... Isn't ilk like a bad word??? :O)
Ray |
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12/05/2012 06:05:32 PM · #470 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
... It would be quite unreasonable to hold the position (which I have seen) that we ought not teach our children the tenets of our faith until they are able to critically judge their merits for themselves. That, to me, is patently absurd. |
Why?
I don't understand this position at all - why not present all sides of the argument equally until the child can make their own decision on what is right and what is not? |
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12/05/2012 06:14:22 PM · #471 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
... Do we have lots of stories of people saying, "help! I'm being held hostage by the Catholic Church!" I just don't see that narrative bearing any resemblance to reality. |
Do you think that the poor people referred to Here might fall into the very category you allude to.
Ray |
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12/05/2012 06:17:55 PM · #472 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
... It would be quite unreasonable to hold the position (which I have seen) that we ought not teach our children the tenets of our faith until they are able to critically judge their merits for themselves. That, to me, is patently absurd. |
Why?
I don't understand this position at all - why not present all sides of the argument equally until the child can make their own decision on what is right and what is not? |
So you think as I teach my two year old son that he shouldn't hit his one year old sister that I should present all cases for or against the morality of physical violence and allow him to make his own decision of what he thinks the correct course of action is?
You don't have kids, do you? ;) |
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12/05/2012 06:28:56 PM · #473 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
... Do we have lots of stories of people saying, "help! I'm being held hostage by the Catholic Church!" I just don't see that narrative bearing any resemblance to reality. |
Do you think that the poor people referred to Here might fall into the very category you allude to.
Ray |
What kind of religious bass-ackwards country you got up there Ray? You got no separation of church and state? Man, I got a whole new view of Canada now that I'm supposed to view this as some sort of widespread systemic issue rather than an egrigious travesty. We used to say the US was Jesusland, but we pale in comparison! |
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12/05/2012 06:37:35 PM · #474 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
... It would be quite unreasonable to hold the position (which I have seen) that we ought not teach our children the tenets of our faith until they are able to critically judge their merits for themselves. That, to me, is patently absurd. |
Why?
I don't understand this position at all - why not present all sides of the argument equally until the child can make their own decision on what is right and what is not? |
So you think as I teach my two year old son that he shouldn't hit his one year old sister that I should present all cases for or against the morality of physical violence and allow him to make his own decision of what he thinks the correct course of action is?
You don't have kids, do you? ;) |
Physical violence and abuse is almost always wrong, and that's pretty easy to explain, so no, I don't see a great deal of need there. But this is something we're all pretty sure about, most humans agree with the statement that violence is typically wrong.
Religion on the other hand is rarely agreed about, nor is it a simple subject. By telling your kids that you're sure about something that you have no darned clue about really does amount to mental abuse in my opinion... Although I know you disagree. I just can't see how manipulating your kids to follow the same path you've followed is healthy.
I for one do intend to tell my kids that some people think there is a god, and that they could be right.
ETA:
It's funny how often that argument/justification comes up with you.
You're not a Christian: = You can't say shit about religion because you're not one of us and therefore you are ignorant of everything.
You don't have kids, do you?: = You can't say shit about parenting because you're not one of us and therefore you are ignorant of everything.
..
I don't buy it... Just because you're not a chef doesn't mean you don't know good food from bad food.
Message edited by author 2012-12-05 18:39:43. |
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12/05/2012 06:42:47 PM · #475 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Physical violence and abuse is almost always wrong, and that's pretty easy to explain, so no, I don't see a great deal of need there. But this is something we're all pretty sure about, most humans agree with the statement that violence is typically wrong.
Religion on the other hand is rarely agreed about, nor is it a simple subject. By telling your kids that you're sure about something that you have no darned clue about really does amount to mental abuse in my opinion... Although I know you disagree. I just can't see how manipulating your kids to follow the same path you've followed is healthy.
I for one do intend to tell my kids that some people think there is a god, and that they could be right. |
That was the answer I suspected I would get. I'll make sure to send over the checklist of things to teach and get your ok on what is fine to indoctrinate in my children and what is not... |
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