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12/03/2012 08:55:27 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Then again, "Everything you produce is pure and absolute shit!" isn't easy to swallow. |
Hey! I'm in the room....
I only got through a few pages. It was actually too painful to see. Makes me feel much better, though I have never charged anyone to take a picture. And in reference to  Skewsme's point, I have looked back at my images. Sadly some five years ago were better...
But then I have no illusions about being able to create a quality image on demand. But some of those, wow! |
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12/03/2012 09:08:54 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by snaffles:
Yes there are *fauxtogs* out there. Check out youarenotaphotographer.com. Truly horrifying that people actually charge for the most unbelievable crap. |
That's some pretty funny stuff, but it would be so much better if we had some kind of proof that they were "professional" shots. Some (most?) could have been people's own snapshots that they put on facebook or something, with a WM that says "such and such photography." Otherwise it seems like I'm just looking at bad photos.
I haven't looked deep enough into the site, so they may have proof somewhere that all the shots are by "pros," but I didn't see such a thing.
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12/04/2012 03:28:01 AM · #28 |
| I think the point is they are all either watermarked as somebody somebody photography or taken from Facebook pages called etc etc photography...... |
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12/04/2012 03:28:01 AM · #29 |
| I think the point is they are all either watermarked as somebody somebody photography or taken from Facebook pages called etc etc photography...... |
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12/04/2012 06:58:39 AM · #30 |
Part of the reason that anyone can be a pro is that the customer base has a lower expectation of quality for some reason.
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12/04/2012 07:51:44 AM · #31 |
Originally posted by kawesttex:
I only went through the first 30 pages and am proud to announce I didn't see any of mine.
Thank You. |
Supposedly, each picture is submitted by the photographer, not by the customers. Not sure how much I believe that, but that's what they say. |
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12/04/2012 08:51:45 AM · #32 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Part of the reason that anyone can be a pro is that the customer base has a lower expectation of quality for some reason. |
after giving this thought... I realized that many people are, in fact, willing to give up some level of quality for budget.
seems that most of the people were happy with their final product... so, really, what is there to say? |
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12/04/2012 08:55:29 AM · #33 |
Originally posted by Denielle:
seems that most of the people were happy with their final product... so, really, what is there to say? |
Isn't that the only metric which matters in a service industry, customer satisfaction? |
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12/04/2012 08:56:26 AM · #34 |
Home Depot has everyone thinking they are pro plumbers, electricians, etc. The INTERNET has everybody diagnosing their own conditions, writing their own trusts, etc.
Make fun all you want, but calling yourself a "pro photographer" for "facebook" purposes is much more harmless that any of the above examples.
It all started to go downhill when people realized they could take their own passport photos. |
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12/04/2012 11:09:37 AM · #35 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Home Depot has everyone thinking they are pro plumbers, electricians, etc. The INTERNET has everybody diagnosing their own conditions, writing their own trusts, etc.
Make fun all you want, but calling yourself a "pro photographer" for "facebook" purposes is much more harmless that any of the above examples.
It all started to go downhill when people realized they could take their own passport photos. |
um no. Home depot allows people the tools to fix things themselves, people still need to have the skill to do so.
I dont care what your skill set is, if you have the ability to charge anyone for work, you are a professional, whether or not those that make it a career agree or not is irrelevant and probably rooted in jealous anger.
I can understand the jealousy, you spend a lot of time honing your profession and some guy /gal with a camera comes along and undercuts your business. You need to evolve to stay relevant or go by the wayside, there have been lots of professions throughout the years that have gone extinct for one reason or the other, photography is not exempt. |
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12/04/2012 11:24:06 AM · #36 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
It all started to go downhill when people realized they could take their own passport photos. |
Oh no, you mean it's OUR fault? |
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12/04/2012 11:51:14 AM · #37 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Home Depot has everyone thinking they are pro plumbers, electricians, etc. The INTERNET has everybody diagnosing their own conditions, writing their own trusts, etc.
Make fun all you want, but calling yourself a "pro photographer" for "facebook" purposes is much more harmless that any of the above examples.
It all started to go downhill when people realized they could take their own passport photos. |
um no. Home depot allows people the tools to fix things themselves, people still need to have the skill to do so.
I dont care what your skill set is, if you have the ability to charge anyone for work, you are a professional, whether or not those that make it a career agree or not is irrelevant and probably rooted in jealous anger.
I can understand the jealousy, you spend a lot of time honing your profession and some guy /gal with a camera comes along and undercuts your business. You need to evolve to stay relevant or go by the wayside, there have been lots of professions throughout the years that have gone extinct for one reason or the other, photography is not exempt. |
First, I think we agree on the main point more than your reply belies,
but my point about Home depot is that they make it seem like you can do anything yourself
and as a parallel, equipment and the Internet give people the tools and idea that they are more than they are photography wise.
But here is the crucial part, and God forbid we bring up "ART in photography again"-
but what is the harm in a non-artistic amateur taking prom photos, corporate headshots, etc? will the general public really notice its not high art? |
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12/04/2012 11:51:34 AM · #38 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
You need to evolve to stay relevant or go by the wayside, there have been lots of professions throughout the years that have gone extinct for one reason or the other, photography is not exempt. |
Yeah, but there aren't people out there right and left saying they'll replace your water heater, put a clutch in you 4WD truck, or wiring your addition. These things actually do require a skill set, and despite the fact that GOOD photography has a skill set that requires experience, talent, and equipment, people aren't as knowledgeable about what bad photography is. I do the occasional odd job, and I produce decent work, but I'm up front about being a decent photog, but by no means a specialist. Unfortunately, most people are thrilled by my work despite my knowing it's far from the kind of work you'd get by hiring a wedding or portrait photographer who does it for a living. Basically, there are few people out there who know enough what they're looking at to want the very best. It's really a shame.......somehow, the average person needs to be shown why it is that your work as a specialist is superior.If they don't get it, then neither of you should go for it. It's damn hard work to be both successful and good. Marketing does not make a photographer good, and a good photographer can't go anywhere unless he devotes an enormous amount of time, energy, and money to make a business fly.
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12/04/2012 11:54:46 AM · #39 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Home Depot has everyone thinking they are pro plumbers, electricians, etc. The INTERNET has everybody diagnosing their own conditions, writing their own trusts, etc.
Make fun all you want, but calling yourself a "pro photographer" for "facebook" purposes is much more harmless that any of the above examples.
It all started to go downhill when people realized they could take their own passport photos. |
Oh, don't get me started on Home Depot. Them, and their "You can do it, we can help.", commercials...
I bought a new bathroom vanity, and faucets there. I specifically mentioned, at checkout, that I was going to install it on Saturday morning. Since I used my credit card I had to show ID, so I know the knew my address. Comes Saturday morning, not a dang one of them shows up! |
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12/04/2012 12:02:44 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by ambaker:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Home Depot has everyone thinking they are pro plumbers, electricians, etc. The INTERNET has everybody diagnosing their own conditions, writing their own trusts, etc.
Make fun all you want, but calling yourself a "pro photographer" for "facebook" purposes is much more harmless that any of the above examples.
It all started to go downhill when people realized they could take their own passport photos. |
Oh, don't get me started on Home Depot. Them, and their "You can do it, we can help.", commercials...
I bought a new bathroom vanity, and faucets there. I specifically mentioned, at checkout, that I was going to install it on Saturday morning. Since I used my credit card I had to show ID, so I know the knew my address. Comes Saturday morning, not a dang one of them shows up! |
LOL!!! Yeah......deadbeats!
I have the same issue with places like Auto-Zone & Advance Auto. They try to convince you through their commercials that you can fix your car yourself. One of the reasons I got out of the car business was because the information flow to the aftermarket kept independents at least five years back on the knowledge curve, so that the customers you had with new/newer cars were basically forced to go back to the dealer.
Yet those people were always right out there with their free computer scans & loaner tools (For free, no less!) convincing people to do it themselves.
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12/04/2012 12:12:09 PM · #41 |
| I'm not a doctor, I just play one on the internet... |
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12/04/2012 12:30:22 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
but my point about Home depot is that they make it seem like you can do anything yourself
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you can do anything yourself, whether you want to or not is a different story. so what's wrong them making that point?
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12/04/2012 12:40:44 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
but my point about Home depot is that they make it seem like you can do anything yourself
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you can do anything yourself, whether you want to or not is a different story. so what's wrong them making that point? |
that's not true... you can't do ANYTHING you want.
I can't perform brain surgery. it's not a matter of wanting to, it's a matter of inability.
perhaps if I went to school and developed the skills and technique needed, I could... but I couldn't go out today ang buy the equipment needed and perform life saving brain surgery.
can I fix plumbing? yea.
can I paint a wall? no doubt.
can I change oil in my car or replace the belt? sure.
but just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you should a)market your services; or b)call yourself a professional/skilled person at that particular occupation.
knowing the difference between skill and hobby is a problem for many out there... and the sad reality is that they are profiting off of these people. people who are too budget conscious or simply lack the ability to see any type of skill.
but, like I said before... if the client is happy, that's all that matters, right? |
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12/04/2012 12:52:50 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
you can do anything yourself, whether you want to or not is a different story. so what's wrong them making that point? |
Oh, I *so* hate that platitude! It's such a crock. Yeah, there was a time when an indomitable spirit and hard work could get you to the top of the heap, but this one simply isn't true any more.
Can you repair an offset press? Can you describe to me the fluid flow in a Laycock de Normanville overdrive as it pertains to clutch application? Can you butcher a hog? Can you recite Pi to 50 decimal places? Can you do a reverse 3½ in the pike position? Can you captain an America's Cup yacht? Can you play the cello?
Sure, you may be able to learn to do some of these things, but some of them also require innate talent you may not have.....
And if you believe that these people advertising that every Tom, Dick, & Harry can do their own car repairs and home building projects, you really haven't seen some of the inept results that happen because of them.
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12/04/2012 01:13:23 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by mike_311:
you can do anything yourself, whether you want to or not is a different story. so what's wrong them making that point? |
Oh, I *so* hate that platitude! It's such a crock. Yeah, there was a time when an indomitable spirit and hard work could get you to the top of the heap, but this one simply isn't true any more.
Can you repair an offset press? Can you describe to me the fluid flow in a Laycock de Normanville overdrive as it pertains to clutch application? Can you butcher a hog? Can you recite Pi to 50 decimal places? Can you do a reverse 3½ in the pike position? Can you captain an America's Cup yacht? Can you play the cello?
Sure, you may be able to learn to do some of these things, but some of them also require innate talent you may not have.....
And if you believe that these people advertising that every Tom, Dick, & Harry can do their own car repairs and home building projects, you really haven't seen some of the inept results that happen because of them. |
Easy DIY car repair.
Step 1: Call Insurer and up coverage to maximum possible.
Step 2: Wait.
Step 3: Trash car
Step 4: Collect on insurance scam claim.
Step 5: Buy new car
Step 6: Go to Step 1 |
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12/04/2012 01:35:18 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
but my point about Home depot is that they make it seem like you can do anything yourself
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you can do anything yourself, whether you want to or not is a different story. so what's wrong them making that point? |
I used that as an analogy, apparently a poor one, to the internet and the rise of digital photography and their impact on the "professional market."
(as a side note, Home Depot(Lowes as well) is a haven for would be pros, or perhaps out of work pros. Dress in corporate casual or a suit and go into the plumbing or electrical aisle, and look puzzlingly at the shelf, see how many "pros" approach you to do your job for you...) |
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12/04/2012 01:56:33 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Oh, I *so* hate that platitude! It's such a crock. Yeah, there was a time when an indomitable spirit and hard work could get you to the top of the heap, but this one simply isn't true any more.
Can you repair an offset press? Can you describe to me the fluid flow in a Laycock de Normanville overdrive as it pertains to clutch application? Can you butcher a hog? Can you recite Pi to 50 decimal places? Can you do a reverse 3½ in the pike position? Can you captain an America's Cup yacht? Can you play the cello?
Sure, you may be able to learn to do some of these things, but some of them also require innate talent you may not have.....
And if you believe that these people advertising that every Tom, Dick, & Harry can do their own car repairs and home building projects, you really haven't seen some of the inept results that happen because of them. |
Can we use some common sense here?
for instance of course not everyone can perform brain surgery, there are distinct barriers that allow a person the ability to perform any task. however it varies greatly form task to task.
could i learn myself the knowledge to perform brain surgery on my own, yes, given the time and effort and will. could i then i perform it? not without the equipment or experience. its a highly skilled trade that requires more than just knowledge.
photography is one of those trades were equipment is relatively inexpensive and available to anyone that wants to practice it. please stop complicating the issue.
to everyone, dont belittle those that have the drive to market themselves and the wherewithal to actually succeed at it even if you are unimpressed with their "talent".
there are pros that are good and bad in every field, not just photography. |
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12/04/2012 02:22:10 PM · #48 |
Some day I will scan and post our wedding pictures done by a (highly-paid) professional. My wife still can't talk about them - still upset after all these years. His wonderful work includes "The Martian Bride", "The Bride Who Couldn't Hold It", "Broken Neck Bride", and other all-time favorites.
I think in the world of professional photography, the social knowledge about it is that no one knows what a good picture is (as demonstrated by a blurry image with an orange crescent in it being ballyhoo'ed by "professionals" and "critics" as "fantastic"), a professional photographer is way too expensive, and all I really need is a record of the event.
Also, the quality of equipment has greatly improved, making it a lot harder to take out of focus pictures. So, without anything to compare it with, folks are happy with snapshots of the family, rather than really wanting a quality picture.
Plus, it is simply a matter of supply and demand - with lots of people being able to take generally-acceptable shots, the perceived value of each individual shot goes down.
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12/04/2012 02:36:43 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
photography is one of those trades were equipment is relatively inexpensive and available to anyone that wants to practice it. please stop complicating the issue. |
It's not that simple.......IMNSHO you're radically oversimplifying. I don't know what you feel is a reasonable setup to produce quality work, but an entry level DSLR and a printer that you can throw an SD card into certainly is not going to make it. If you can market yourself with that setup then as a professional photog, you're advertising falsely. I just now have a body and a couple lenses that I can do passable work with, and I'd like to think I'm reasonably capable with a camera. As I acquire better equipment I understand why it costs so much to do good work, and more importantly, to have the capable equipment to do that work. I can't imagine being able to do a startup as a serious pro without figuring on having at least $25K to get rolling......and the photogs here who actually do that kind of work might suggest upping that number.
Originally posted by mike_311:
to everyone, dont belittle those that have the drive to market themselves and the wherewithal to actually succeed at it even if you are unimpressed with their "talent". |
Belittling them is not the point......it's more bemoaning the fact that people are so woefully uninformed about the difference in quality that is available from a real pro. Unfortunately, most paid photography jobs are one-shot.......wedding, senior portrait, new child. You don't get do-overs if they don't work out for the most part, so it's not like you can get that bad experience "fixed" by bringing in a pro......especially with a wedding.
Originally posted by mike_311:
there are pros that are good and bad in every field, not just photography. |
Well, yeah, unfortunately photography isn't a necessary commodity like plumbing, car repair, and the other trades we've been discussing. Which also may be why people are willing to accept a less than perfect result if they think they can save a lot of money......and since it is not a commonly sought out service, there really isn't much in the way of consumer reporting and advice columns to help you make an intelligent decision when hiring a photographer.
And *all* of this is common sense, but people don't see it because it's outside of their normal experiences in life.
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12/04/2012 03:00:44 PM · #50 |
If you've been paid via gifts for your "companionship", does that make you a prostitute?
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