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11/17/2012 09:16:51 AM · #1 |
Just curious, all you math gurus out there. (Let me preface by saying I usually vote 100% when I vote.)
Which has more / less effect when voting in challenges - a low vote or a missed vote?
Scenario:
I have previewed pre-challenge 2 (or more) entries. I've given advice or an opinion on said images. Let's say I honestly think image 1 deserves a 9, and image 2 deserves a 4 (just pick some arbitrary numbers here). If I skip voting on these images all together, is it possible that my non-vote may effect placement etc? Mathmatically, is it 'better' to skip voting, or vote one low and the other high, as per an honest opinion?
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11/17/2012 10:14:59 AM · #2 |
Originally posted by pamb:
Mathmatically, is it 'better' to skip voting, or vote one low and the other high, as per an honest opinion? |
Mathematically, it's better that everyone votes 100% or 0%. Anything in between introduces skew that otherwise wouldn't be there.
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11/17/2012 04:56:22 PM · #3 |
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by pamb:
Mathmatically, is it 'better' to skip voting, or vote one low and the other high, as per an honest opinion? |
Mathematically, it's better that everyone votes 100% or 0%. Anything in between introduces skew that otherwise wouldn't be there. |
Yes, but then you'd get nailed by the people who think you can't vote impartially if you've seen an image prior to a challenge.
If someone asks for input prior to a challenge, I won't vote on that entry. I think I can be unbiased, but I've seen way too many people slam people for voting on images they know. If people have a problem with it, I have no problem recusing myself from voting on that image. Venser talks about a skew, but it's a negligible skew. A bigger problem is when people vote on just the images they like or just the 20%, or avoiding the ones they think are DNMC, etc. If they're just skipping 1-4 images per challenge, it's not that big of an effect, imo.
What we need is to get out the vote. I think people are voting less and less as time goes by. How do we get the current users to participate more in the voting, so that the individual choices don't affect the overalls as much?
Message edited by author 2012-11-17 17:03:38.
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11/17/2012 05:41:01 PM · #4 |
Since joining back in 2005 and the huge output we had back then 300-400 entries per challenge I understood if people didn't have the time to fully vote on all the images. Now with 40-80 enteries per challenge its a bit different. I have always voted on 100% of the images even if I think I know who they are. I don't think I am biased either way. I have before fell into the trap of giving lower votes because my own entry wasn't doing well. But that was along time ago and I have since progressed my attitude towards voting and being subjective. Just like my photography has progressed (atleast I hope).
I am not sure if people hand pick which entries they want to vote or not I would like to think they don't but I am sure a small percentage does. I am not sure how much a missing vote hurts someone score or even help it if it does. I find voting to be on the decline as well and I generally have 3 times as many views as votes.
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11/18/2012 03:35:31 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
If someone asks for input prior to a challenge, I won't vote on that entry. I think I can be unbiased, but I've seen way too many people slam people for voting on images they know. If people have a problem with it, I have no problem recusing myself from voting on that image. |
I've never understood this. I can pick out 15-20 users entries in most challenges, and there's no way I'm unique on this front. I don't understand the people who slam voters who know entries beforehand. Unless those people can show there's some kind of biased going on from knowing the photographers, they're just complaining about sour grapes.
Originally posted by vawendy:
Venser talks about a skew, but it's a negligible skew. A bigger problem is when people vote on just the images they like or just the 20%, or avoiding the ones they think are DNMC, etc. If they're just skipping 1-4 images per challenge, it's not that big of an effect, imo. |
You're correct here. Every missed vote will introduce skew, but the real problem arises from the scenarios you described. Given the number of voters recently, if only a couple of people do that, there's not enough voters to rinse this effect out in the wash. |
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11/18/2012 07:20:02 PM · #6 |
I would love to hear from those who don't vote 100% in challenges (maybe 95% if they feel they shouldn't vote on those they saw before rollover). I really don't understand how. with 40 -60 entries per challenge, there could be a reason to hand pick what you vote on. And I have to believe, based on the number of views vs entries, that many who vote and don't vote 100% don't have a horse in the race anyhow.
Message edited by author 2012-11-18 19:22:35. |
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11/18/2012 07:43:07 PM · #7 |
I'm one of the 20%ers, simply because I've grown accustomed to getting by on the absolute minimum amount of work, and know there will be other voters to do the heavy lifting for me. It's really Obama's fault for providing such a warm and cozy welfare state, where slackers like me can so easily hitch a ride powered by others.
In the real truth I try to comment on every vote I make, and if I cannot find the right words or cannot figure out an appropriate score or I run out of time, I just call it quits.
It never occurred to me that this was unfair, so from this point on I'll change my voting behavior to hit 100%. |
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11/18/2012 07:46:04 PM · #8 |
| I don't vote on images that I have seen before rollover as I have been personally involved with that image, spent more time analysing and may have even suggested changes to improve this image. I do not feel I can be completely unbiased towards this image and so I do not vote on it. |
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11/18/2012 07:55:39 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by bohemka:
I'm one of the 20%ers, simply because I've grown accustomed to getting by on the absolute minimum amount of work, and know there will be other voters to do the heavy lifting for me. It's really Obama's fault for providing such a warm and cozy welfare state, where slackers like me can so easily hitch a ride powered by others.
In the real truth I try to comment on every vote I make, and if I cannot find the right words or cannot figure out an appropriate score or I run out of time, I just call it quits.
It never occurred to me that this was unfair, so from this point on I'll change my voting behavior to hit 100%. |
thanks. We need you:) |
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11/18/2012 07:57:24 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by Abra:
I don't vote on images that I have seen before rollover as I have been personally involved with that image, spent more time analysing and may have even suggested changes to improve this image. I do not feel I can be completely unbiased towards this image and so I do not vote on it. |
That's your preference, but what we're asking is do you vote on the other 99% that you haven't seen before?!! And if not, why? |
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11/18/2012 08:15:34 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by PennyStreet:
Originally posted by Abra:
I don't vote on images that I have seen before rollover as I have been personally involved with that image, spent more time analysing and may have even suggested changes to improve this image. I do not feel I can be completely unbiased towards this image and so I do not vote on it. |
That's your preference, but what we're asking is do you vote on the other 99% that you haven't seen before?!! And if not, why? |
I may have misunderstood your original request of âI would love to hear from those who don't vote 100% in challenges (maybe 95% if they feel they shouldn't vote on those they saw before rollover).â I thought you were interested in why some people choose not to vote on images they have seen before rollover.
For what it's worth, except when Iâm not physically able to, I vote on all entries in every challenge whether I've entered or not excetp on those I've seen prior. My statâs are:
Challenges Entered: 237
Votes Cast: 48,747
Avg Vote Cast: 6.1221
Votes Received: 32,491
Avg Vote Received: 5.4711
eta to try and (but probably failed) to carify
Message edited by author 2012-11-18 20:19:18. |
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11/18/2012 08:16:59 PM · #12 |
Double post.
Message edited by author 2012-11-18 20:17:41. |
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11/18/2012 08:20:23 PM · #13 |
I might be wrong but I think if you vote on less than a set percentage of the entries your votes are not counted.
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11/18/2012 08:27:50 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
I might be wrong but I think if you vote on less than a set percentage of the entries your votes are not counted. |
Right.... less than 20%... and that's a good thing, but at the moment we have not enough voters and would love to see something higher. Hopefully 100%.
Mathematically speaking, Mr. Venser has stated that in all fairness we should be voting nothing OR 100%. Not being a trained statistician, I look at it from a different pov, philosophically I guess, but still come up with the same answer. |
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11/18/2012 08:28:36 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by pamb:
Just curious, all you math gurus out there. (Let me preface by saying I usually vote 100% when I vote.)
Which has more / less effect when voting in challenges - a low vote or a missed vote?
Scenario:
I have previewed pre-challenge 2 (or more) entries. I've given advice or an opinion on said images. Let's say I honestly think image 1 deserves a 9, and image 2 deserves a 4 (just pick some arbitrary numbers here). If I skip voting on these images all together, is it possible that my non-vote may effect placement etc? Mathmatically, is it 'better' to skip voting, or vote one low and the other high, as per an honest opinion? |
Mathematically if you don't vote on them (and they score <9, >4) the image you think deserves a 9 will be worse off and the image you believe deserves a 4 will be better off. The margins are so small though in practice it doesn't matter unless another image scores almost identically which I think happens with about 2 images per challenge.
Of course it's not possible for you to asses your own impartiality on images you've seen and have inside information on (photographer etc) so in a situation where it matters I don't think you should ever vote on these images.
This site is just for fun though, I doubt anyone looses sleep over 100th's of points so do what you like =).
As for my voting habits, I tend to skip over images I don't think meet criteria (as I don't believe in arbitrarily giving out 1's and 2's as 'punishment') and vote on the others. |
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11/18/2012 08:38:34 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by pamb:
Which has more / less effect when voting in challenges - a low vote or a missed vote?
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Low votes have a direct effect on your score. Missed votes do not. I would be more worried about total votes in general. In the Deja Vu challenge the average was around 90-94 votes received. That's really low, IMO. Scores tend to stabilize right around the 100 vote mark and for many in that challenge they didn't even reach that. What happens if we start getting challenges with 70 or 50 votes across the board? We'll be awarding ribbons to photos that may not have even placed in the top 5 had they received 10 more votes.
Message edited by author 2012-11-18 20:40:33. |
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11/18/2012 09:00:26 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Low votes have a direct effect on your score. Missed votes do not. |
This is a fallacious statement. Missed votes have a direct effect on your score also. |
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11/18/2012 09:03:12 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by yanko:
Low votes have a direct effect on your score. Missed votes do not. |
This is a fallacious statement. Missed votes have a direct effect on your score also. |
Incorrect. If nobody votes on your entry after a certain point, your score will not change further. You are mixing up placement with score.
Message edited by author 2012-11-18 21:07:27. |
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11/18/2012 09:13:35 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by bassbone:
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by yanko:
Low votes have a direct effect on your score. Missed votes do not. |
This is a fallacious statement. Missed votes have a direct effect on your score also. |
Incorrect. If nobody votes on your entry after a certain point, your score will not change further. You are mixing up placement with score. |
How so?
If someone votes on every entry except yours it indirectly affects your score. Give me an example to back up your position. I know you love to dismiss my positions, but you're wrong here. |
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11/18/2012 09:15:54 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by bassbone:
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by yanko:
Low votes have a direct effect on your score. Missed votes do not. |
This is a fallacious statement. Missed votes have a direct effect on your score also. |
Incorrect. If nobody votes on your entry after a certain point, your score will not change further. You are mixing up placement with score. |
How so?
If someone votes on every entry except yours it indirectly affects your score. Give me an example to back up your position. I know you love to dismiss my positions, but you're wrong here. |
But someone not voting on an entry does not directly impact your individual score.
Example: My score is 6.000. Voter does not vote on my entry. My score is still 6.000. Nuff said. |
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11/18/2012 09:20:02 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by bassbone:
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by bassbone:
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by yanko:
Low votes have a direct effect on your score. Missed votes do not. |
This is a fallacious statement. Missed votes have a direct effect on your score also. |
Incorrect. If nobody votes on your entry after a certain point, your score will not change further. You are mixing up placement with score. |
How so?
If someone votes on every entry except yours it indirectly affects your score. Give me an example to back up your position. I know you love to dismiss my positions, but you're wrong here. |
But someone not voting on an entry does not directly impact your individual score.
Example: My score is 6.000. Voter does not vote on my entry. My score is still 6.000. Nuff said. |
Sure. In the extremely simplistic sense.
But here in reality, if I vote on everyone's entry except one, chances are I will lower everyone's score but one entry. If my average were higher, the converse would happen. So you're simplistic example is shit. If you're going to argue about math with me, know your shit. Nuff said. |
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11/18/2012 09:22:27 PM · #22 |
You are purposefully inferring something that is not there.  Yanko was talking about score, not placement. YOU cannot get around that. A person's score will not change if a score is not given. The placement maybe, but not the score.
Message edited by author 2012-11-18 22:25:01. |
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11/18/2012 09:32:11 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by bassbone:
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by bassbone:
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by yanko:
Low votes have a direct effect on your score. Missed votes do not. |
This is a fallacious statement. Missed votes have a direct effect on your score also. |
Incorrect. If nobody votes on your entry after a certain point, your score will not change further. You are mixing up placement with score. |
How so?
If someone votes on every entry except yours it indirectly affects your score. Give me an example to back up your position. I know you love to dismiss my positions, but you're wrong here. |
But someone not voting on an entry does not directly impact your individual score.
Example: My score is 6.000. Voter does not vote on my entry. My score is still 6.000. Nuff said. |
Sure. In the extremely simplistic sense.
But here in reality, if I vote on everyone's entry except one, chances are I will lower everyone's score but one entry. If my average were higher, the converse would happen. So you're simplistic example is shit. If you're going to argue about math with me, know your shit. Nuff said. |
So if I don't vote on any pics then I am affecting all the scores? |
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11/18/2012 09:33:13 PM · #24 |
| I can only affect scores on those that I vote on. Placement has been correctly identified. |
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11/18/2012 09:34:42 PM · #25 |
| I'm not getting into this thread, but holy crap has voting ever slowed to a crawl recently. Just an observation. |
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