If it happened to them... it can happen to anyone.

10/29/2012 07:26:55 PM · #126

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by MinsoPhoto:

The problem is the term Christian is very loosely applied to a huge group and there are sects in that group that are at odds with one another. Get a Catholic, Protestant, Southern Baptist, Greek Orthodox, Westboro Baptist and Pentecostal together and see the fights and arguments ensue. Not to mention the young earth creationist, creationist with help of evolution and strictly evolution. Some believe in a literal Adam and Eve some look at Genesis as an allegory. Lumping all who use the term christian together just doesn't work.

They are all from the same cloth. Disagree as they might, that doesn't free them from their association to one another. I cannot make my mother not my mother, it is part and parcel of who I am, the same as they cannot remove themselves from all that has preceded them.

Besides, like I said earlier, I'm actually lumping all religious folks that follow an organized church together here. They are dangerous if the wrong person is at the helm.

Agreed but you also should realize that there are sects that don't follow organized religion but instead follow Christ and his teachings. I mean there are sects of christians that don't even follow the same Christ, some believe he was God, some believe he was just a good man and some don't even believe he ever walked the earth.

To quote myself from earlier in the thread

Originally posted by MinsoPhoto:

The problem is when the religious expect the non religious to follow "their" rules when they are even unable to follow them. Love and acceptance is taught foremost by Jesus and he condemned the religious leaders of the time for how they treated others. If Christians were actually like their namesake and were Christ like we would have far fewer problems. As it is Christians are among the least Christ like of all people.

If everyone followed this we wouldn't be condemning those who live differently we would love them unconditionally for no other reason then to show love. I really think lumping everyone who claims to be religious together just faulty reasoning.

10/29/2012 07:27:05 PM · #127

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by PuppyDogMom:
OK...here's my butt in...

If you associate with a group, you represent the group. Period. Cory gave an excellent example of that.

So by that line of thinking I should assume by your chosen username that you and Michael Vick have a great deal in common both representing dog owners? Period?

That would be if she joined a dog fighting group..

Jeeze guys, the rhetoric is particularly weak tonight.

So her Vinn diagram doesn't bind them through "dog fighting" but they are still bound through "dog ownership". And her point was that once bound you are represented by all members in your group. Realize that to divide humanity into "religious" and "non-religious" actually winds up with a larger group on one side than just dividing into male and female. In other words, there are more religious people in the world than women (or men). Not a very sharp tool for delineation.

Tamron SP 24-70mm f/2.8 Di VC USD Canon Mount

10/29/2012 07:32:20 PM · #128

To add something Cory, you claim to be non religious, which is your choice and I'm not knocking that but based on your reasoning I can lump you in with the same group of radical Atheists who would eradicate those who believe in a god especially Christians. Or the radical groups overseas that think all Christians should be killed and are persecuted daily. We really have no persecution here but in certain parts of the world it is very real. Should I lump you in with those groups? I don't think so.

Mike

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

10/29/2012 07:35:05 PM · #129

Originally posted by MinsoPhoto:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by PuppyDogMom:
OK...here's my butt in...

If you associate with a group, you represent the group. Period. Cory gave an excellent example of that.

So by that line of thinking I should assume by your chosen username that you and Michael Vick have a great deal in common both representing dog owners? Period?

That would be if she joined a dog fighting group..

Jeeze guys, the rhetoric is particularly weak tonight.

The problem is the term Christian is very loosely applied to a huge group and there are sects in that group that are at odds with one another. Get a Catholic, Protestant, Southern Baptist, Greek Orthodox, Westboro Baptist and Pentecostal together and see the fights and arguments ensue. Not to mention the young earth creationist, creationist with help of evolution and strictly evolution. Some believe in a literal Adam and Eve some look at Genesis as an allegory. Lumping all who use the term christian together just doesn't work.

I remember a story I was taught way back.

Write the name Jesus, on top write Bastist, Methodist, Catholic, etc, etc with every sect you can think of and tell me if the original word is even remotely legible.

10/29/2012 07:37:04 PM · #130

Also to add I do believe that organized religion is detrimental to society. Countless wars, fights, laws, racism, hate crimes has been associated with organized religion. Christians were never meant to be the moral police of the world. The majority took it upon themselves and in doing so has done more harm for the cause of Christ. As said, christians are some of the least Christ like people I know and I and many others should not be lumped together based on a label.

10/29/2012 07:40:05 PM · #131

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by PuppyDogMom:
OK...here's my butt in...

If you associate with a group, you represent the group. Period. Cory gave an excellent example of that.

So by that line of thinking I should assume by your chosen username that you and Michael Vick have a great deal in common both representing dog owners? Period?

That would be if she joined a dog fighting group..

Jeeze guys, the rhetoric is particularly weak tonight.

So her Vinn diagram doesn't bind them through "dog fighting" but they are still bound through "dog ownership". And her point was that once bound you are represented by all members in your group. Realize that to divide humanity into "religious" and "non-religious" actually winds up with a larger group on one side than just dividing into male and female. In other words, there are more religious people in the world than women (or men). Not a very sharp tool for delineation.

Your example is that of a criminal, not a dog owner. It's the same as arguing that being a car owner makes you a drunk driver.

Vick is now a dog owner, he WAS a criminal.

So, yeah, I suppose she is throwing her lot in with Micheal Vick, and rightly so - they should hold him to the proper standards for their group, and seem to be doing a pretty good job of it.

10/29/2012 07:40:11 PM · #132

I can understand where you are coming from Cory. I have several homosexual friends and when they found out I went to church they were very reserved figuring I would preach at them, condemn them or mock them etc... Their fear is not irrational but based on experience but we are not all the same.

eta... Hell, you should see they way I get looked at by "christians" or how they react if they see my art/photography.

Message edited by author 2012-10-29 19:42:02.

10/29/2012 07:47:41 PM · #133

Originally posted by MinsoPhoto:

Actually. You should, it's fair, as I share a great deal of similarity with them.

My real response is that they are out of line, and I would like to do something about them, clearly it's not ok to kill or persecute - argue with them, sure... Tell them they are silly, sure, attack the organization theologically, sure... But NEVER kill or shun, or persecute in any other meaningful way. That is wrong, and I think that is an absolute truth - they have as much right to life and happiness as I do, unless their idea of happiness intrudes on my idea of happiness, then they are out of line.

Honestly, if I, as a responsible and kind atheist, don't take responsibility for those who are like me, and try to do whatever I can if the chance arose to convince them that they are in error. As I said earlier, it's ok until you start screwing with someone else's lifestyle.

I condemn all who preach hatred, especially those who are atheist. Fortunately atheist radicals often lack the ideological zeal that their religious counterparts display so readily - something about a lack of belief in an afterlife probably.

sfalice

Canon PowerShot SX60 HS

10/29/2012 07:49:11 PM · #134

Because this is such an interesting discussion, I decided it might be appropriate to throw This into the mix.
Run down through that list and note that Jesus might have wept, but he (or religions created in his name)
were not alone in trying to understand our place in the universe.

10/29/2012 07:49:23 PM · #135

Originally posted by MinsoPhoto:

Those "christians" are the ones you need to be busy condemning and preaching at. You're a part of the "family" and are the only voice they may actually hear.

10/29/2012 07:49:54 PM · #136

Originally posted by Cory:

Your example is that of a criminal, not a dog owner. It's the same as arguing that being a car owner makes you a drunk driver.

It wasn't my argument, but you see the fallacy. It's the same as saying that by being a car owner someone else could fairly represent you by pointing to a drunk driver because you are both car owners.

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

10/29/2012 07:52:37 PM · #137

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Cory:

Your example is that of a criminal, not a dog owner. It's the same as arguing that being a car owner makes you a drunk driver.

It wasn't my argument, but you see the fallacy. It's the same as saying that by being a car owner someone else could fairly represent you by pointing to a drunk driver because you are both car owners.

And I could say that you as a driver have a responsibility to stop drunk drivers.

frisca

Nikon D70

10/29/2012 07:56:24 PM · #138

a fascinating conversation that hasn't meandered its way back to the original topic, so off to rant we go!

10/29/2012 07:57:23 PM · #139

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by MinsoPhoto:
I can understand where you are coming from Cory. I have several homosexual friends and when they found out I went to church they were very reserved figuring I would preach at them, condemn them or mock them etc... Their fear is not irrational but based on experience but we are not all the same.

eta... Hell, you should see they way I get looked at by "christians" or how they react if they see my art/photography.

Those "christians" are the ones you need to be busy condemning and preaching at. You're a part of the "family" and are the only voice they may actually hear.

There should be no preaching or condemning at anyone. No hatred or persecution. And I agree those that label themselves as christian should follow those guidelines but sadly they refuse. They believe they are right and I am an untouchable that needs to be silenced. It truly does make me sad when "christians" spew so much hate. I am sure you remember recently the debacle over chik-fil-a It was sad to see so many people line up to support them and hear the stories of pure hate coming from their mouths. One particular quote I recall was a customer thanked an employee (who was actually gay) that they don't support the gays. How is that love? How is that anything other than despicable? That was truly a disgusting moment and I lost several "friends" when I spoke my mind on how wrong and hateful the things they said were. This is why I have a problem being lumped together, surly you can see that.

Sony FE 200-600mm f/5.6-6.3 G OSS

10/29/2012 07:57:49 PM · #140

Originally posted by frisca:

a fascinating conversation that hasn't meandered its way back to the original topic, so off to rant we go!

LOL, and all is set right in the world. ;)

vawendy

Sony Alpha 1

10/29/2012 07:58:36 PM · #141

I find this such an incredibly sad thread.

There's so much I want to say, but I think I really need to ignore this thread. There are people that I used to like and respect who are likening me to some of the worst extremists because I happen to be Christian who actually has no problem with gay marriage, who believes in the big bang, and who still believes there's a God. I'm sorry you think so little of me.

Luckily, though, I'm a democrat. I'm so glad that I'm not a republican. Because, if you're part of a group, you're as bad as the extremists. There are definitely Republicans alive who have been part of the KKK and have been part of some extreme crap. (the governor of Virginia closed down all of the public schools because he didn't want to integrate them.) (is this better rhetoric?)

Unfortunately, though, there's been some extreme democratic crap. Drat.

I wonder if my extremist religious tendencies outweigh my extremist democratic tendencies.

Seriously, though. This place felt like it was a nice little family. If I read any more of this thread, I'm not sure that it will be the same again. I have not seen such bigotry and intolerance shown in other threads as I have in this one. If this is the way that a number of people feel about people who have different skin, sex, beliefs than yourself, there's less hope than I thought for the world. I always saw this (with some exceptions :), as a crowd that skews the bell curve a bit towards the more intelligent side than the normal facebook, honey boo boo type crowd.

These are not intellectual arguments -- these are more sweeping statements condemning whole groups of very diverse people.

Message edited by author 2012-10-29 20:04:29.

10/29/2012 07:59:04 PM · #142

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by frisca:
a fascinating conversation that hasn't meandered its way back to the original topic, so off to rant we go!

LOL, and all is set right in the world. ;)

Well this was inevitable lol. At least it wasn't shut down :)

10/29/2012 08:06:28 PM · #143

Originally posted by MinsoPhoto:

Fire with fire, eye for an eye. Those who use violence respect nothing but violence.

I say you did exactly as you should when you spoke out and lost several "friends". I tip my hat to you for a job well done.

If there were many fewer who wished to spread the word, and there were many fewer who otherwise intruded upon me, then I would love Christians, after all that Christ fellow you tell stories about was a pretty level headed and wise dude who I totally would have wanted to have a beer with.

pert86

Nikon D40X

10/29/2012 08:08:50 PM · #144

Wow, this thread has become a huge religious discussion. My personal opinion is that the original post about the photographer who was sued is not and should not be linked to religion. It is not a religious choice to discriminate against people.

I feel I can speak to this because I myself am bhuddist, my father is a very conservative baptist preacher and his mother has been a lesbian living her own lifestyle since he was a young boy. He disagrees with her lifestyle but can still show love and have a relationship with her as can he and I (us having different faiths)
This is not about what people believe. This is about learning to live together in this world despite having different beliefs. I will never tell someone their feelings are wrong. but that photographer needs to learn to get along with differing viewpoints or find a job that doesnt involve working with so many people.
and on a side note.I am surprised by how soon people forget discrimination on so many levels that has been present and open and still here (just more hidden) in this country.

10/29/2012 08:09:09 PM · #145

Originally posted by vawendy:

These are not intellectual arguments -- these are more sweeping statements condemning whole groups of very diverse people.

My sentiment exactly. That's all I wished to say. Actually, as far as the initial case, I humorously wondered if the ACLU defended both sides.

10/29/2012 08:13:36 PM · #146

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by MinsoPhoto:

There should be no preaching or condemning at anyone. No hatred or persecution. And I agree those that label themselves as christian should follow those guidelines but sadly they refuse. They believe they are right and I am an untouchable that needs to be silenced. It truly does make me sad when "christians" spew so much hate. I am sure you remember recently the debacle over chik-fil-a It was sad to see so many people line up to support them and hear the stories of pure hate coming from their mouths. One particular quote I recall was a customer thanked an employee (who was actually gay) that they don't support the gays. How is that love? How is that anything other than despicable? That was truly a disgusting moment and I lost several "friends" when I spoke my mind on how wrong and hateful the things they said were. This is why I have a problem being lumped together, surly you can see that.

Fire with fire, eye for an eye. Those who use violence respect nothing but violence.

I say you did exactly as you should when you spoke out and lost several "friends". I tip my hat to you for a job well done.

If there were many fewer who wished to spread the word, and there were many fewer who otherwise intruded upon me, then I would love Christians, after all that Christ fellow you tell stories about was a pretty level headed and wise dude who I totally would have wanted to have a beer with.

And the term christian means Christ like. See how far it has fallen. I suppose growing up with a gay brother and really diving into other cultures has opened my eyes. And that is coming from a Baptist father and a Catholic mother lol. My mom is likely one of the kindest people on earth who hates no one. My dad on the other hand, while I don't think he actually hates people he does think I am a drunk for enjoying a glass of wine every so often and I do artwork of the devil. I suppose they balanced each other out lol.

Just to add a funny story my room mate in college actually requested a room change due to me having a poster of the devil. It was a dragon poster. This is why I refuse to be lumped together even if you insist :)

sfalice

Canon PowerShot SX60 HS

10/29/2012 08:13:47 PM · #147

Originally posted by sfalice:

(Sigh) "a day late, and a dollar short." I had hoped to turn this discussion into a more productive vein.
I have Rant turned off, so good luck all.
:(
I'll check in once in a while when I keep taps on the Gay Marriage thread. One dear to my heart because it gives rights to the disenfranchised in our country, which, I know, is the home of the brave and home of the free. Presumably there can be no religious problem with that.

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

10/29/2012 08:18:37 PM · #148

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by vawendy:

These are not intellectual arguments -- these are more sweeping statements condemning whole groups of very diverse people.

My sentiment exactly. That's all I wished to say. Actually, as far as the initial case, I humorously wondered if the ACLU defended both sides.

Well, to be fair guys, I've always viewed both of you as being very strong Christians, likeable ones at that.

I'm more than just a little miffed at Wendy's response, as it seems to me she's gotten the wrong idea here, but there's little I can do to convince her of that. If by saying that you are share responsibility for the actions of your peers is wrong, then I suppose you should find me guilty of being wrong.

I always feel responsible if someone I'm with is behaving badly, and I correct the situation as quickly as I can, lest others think me to be supporting that bad behavior. I feel that many religious organizations have failed to do so effectively.

And to be really really fair, it has been my experience that Christians could learn a few very important lessons from the religions of the East - they seem to be much better at self-policing in general, and controlling who calls themselves a member of the group.

Here, we protect Westboro, and give them tax cuts, I would prefer it if we denounced them as a church, and relabeled them as a hate group - until that happens, then they are Christians.

BrennanOB

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

10/29/2012 08:21:28 PM · #149

Originally posted by Cory:

Fire with fire, eye for an eye. Those who use violence respect nothing but violence.

Perhaps the most widely misused phrase from the Bible. "An eye for an eye" is a limitation, a maximum punishment allowable. In a time of absolute rulers when any slight might result in death, or horrible punishment for minor offenses it asked for measured responses. No matter if you are quoting the Koran, the Talmud or the book of Matthew, the quote is an admonition to keep the punishment in line with the severity of the crime. If you take it as a minimum response then an eye-for-eye and tooth-for-tooth would lead to a world of the blind and toothless.

Message edited by author 2012-10-29 20:23:26.