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 10/29/2012 01:07:26 PM · #51
Originally posted by mbrutus2009:
I fear this will happen to me one day...

I feel like I would be too uncomfortable to shoot a gay/lesbian marriage for me. (Let the bashing begin).

But hear me out. I've been a Christian since I was in middle school. I have my views on certain issues such as gay/lesbian marriages. But as far as I am concerned the people who are for gay/lesbian marriages, they have just as much of a right to have an opinion as I do and I don't think that the government should dictate how I/they feel about the issues.

That being said, I honestly don't think I could do the wedding either and I don't blame the photographers for refusing the service.


here is the problem, you are allowed to feel how ever you want and you are allowed to practice your beliefs as you see fit, as yourself and in your home. the minute you offer a service to the public, you are not, repeat not, allowed to discriminate against any client base, if you do you can be sued.

if you do not feel as if you can do that, you should not perform that or any service to the public.

my opinion on the matter is, if anyone cares, i don't see why its a problem. ok so gay people practice a sexuality that violates your beliefs, so? whats the problem? you aren't participating in the ceremony, you aren't giving your blessing, you aren't going as a guest, you are being paid to perform a service. the same service you would perform for non-gays. learn to separate your beliefs and your ability to perform a task.
 10/29/2012 01:23:33 PM · #52
Originally posted by mike_311:

my opinion on the matter is, if anyone cares, i don't see why its a problem. ok so gay people practice a sexuality that violates your beliefs, so? whats the problem? you aren't participating in the ceremony, you aren't giving your blessing, you aren't going as a guest, you are being paid to perform a service. the same service you would perform for non-gays. learn to separate your beliefs and your ability to perform a task.


Quite right. I've done a lot of wedding photography this last six months and, personally, the music of Mariah Carey is an affront to my deeply held beliefs but if it's played at a ceremony or as the first dance i've just got to be a professional about it and shoot away. Then, when i get home in the evening, i get down on my knees and pray to the God of Punk and ask for forgiveness and put some Ramones or The Clash on or something. Problem solved.
 10/29/2012 01:25:19 PM · #53
Originally posted by Cory:
1. Your beliefs are silly


This is not ok in the least bit. Everyone has a right to an opinion and to believe what they choose to believe. However, it is not ok to impose your belief system on anyone else.

Why is it ok for you to call his belief in Christianity silly but it not ok for me to call your belief about same-sex marriage silly?

BTW, I am not saying your beliefs are silly. And I'm not saying I agree or disagree with your beliefs. I'm just saying everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs EVEN IF it goes against popular culture.
 10/29/2012 01:32:10 PM · #54
Pretty much all beliefs are a bit silly. Atheism is silly when you think about it. And Christianity. Capitalism is very silly as is Scientology and Paganism and Socialism (and i'd perhaps label myself as a pagan agnostic socialist). It's all very silly at the end of the day but at least it gets us through until the end of the day. And then we die.
 10/29/2012 01:38:00 PM · #55
Originally posted by slickchik:
Originally posted by Cory:
1. Your beliefs are silly


This is not ok in the least bit. Everyone has a right to an opinion and to believe what they choose to believe. However, it is not ok to impose your belief system on anyone else.

Why is it ok for you to call his belief in Christianity silly but it not ok for me to call your belief about same-sex marriage silly?

BTW, I am not saying your beliefs are silly. And I'm not saying I agree or disagree with your beliefs. I'm just saying everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs EVEN IF it goes against popular culture.


Please explain to me how Cory's "your belief is silly" is in ANY way:

A) Not an opinion (and thus why he doesn't have the right to say it)?
B) Imposing his belief on anyone else?
C) A claim that you can't call his belief silly?

I think you may be reading way more into that then it says.

For the record, I agree with most, if not all, of what Cory says in this thread. I think he's doing a great job trying to open people's eyes and minds.
 10/29/2012 01:42:29 PM · #56
Originally posted by slickchik:
Originally posted by Cory:
1. Your beliefs are silly


This is not ok in the least bit. Everyone has a right to an opinion and to believe what they choose to believe. However, it is not ok to impose your belief system on anyone else.

Why is it ok for you to call his belief in Christianity silly but it not ok for me to call your belief about same-sex marriage silly?

BTW, I am not saying your beliefs are silly. And I'm not saying I agree or disagree with your beliefs. I'm just saying everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs EVEN IF it goes against popular culture.


Umm. It is ok. When did I ever say it wasn't?

By the way, same-sex marriage is real, and I can prove it. I would invite you, or anyone, to prove to me that "god hates fags"



..

Ignoring that though, how can you be so silly as to think I have beliefs? I am not religious or a believer. I try quite hard to operate only upon that which can be demonstrated...
 10/29/2012 01:45:16 PM · #57
Originally posted by giantmike:
Originally posted by slickchik:
Originally posted by Cory:
1. Your beliefs are silly


This is not ok in the least bit. Everyone has a right to an opinion and to believe what they choose to believe. However, it is not ok to impose your belief system on anyone else.

Why is it ok for you to call his belief in Christianity silly but it not ok for me to call your belief about same-sex marriage silly?

BTW, I am not saying your beliefs are silly. And I'm not saying I agree or disagree with your beliefs. I'm just saying everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs EVEN IF it goes against popular culture.


Please explain to me how Cory's "your belief is silly" is in ANY way:

A) Not an opinion (and thus why he doesn't have the right to say it)?
B) Imposing his belief on anyone else?
C) A claim that you can't call his belief silly?

I think you may be reading way more into that then it says.

For the record, I agree with most, if not all, of what Cory says in this thread. I think he's doing a great job trying to open people's eyes and minds.


I agree that Cory has been very well spoken in this thread.
I think that at times, we read too far into things when we feel we are being attacked.

I believe in God. Am I Christian? I suppose, if you want to group me. But I have individual beliefs.
Most Christians I know say gay marriage is wrong... bring bible verses up as proof.
But I think Gay marriage is perfectly fine. If that's what makes people happy.
That's just one example.

I don't think that people who don't believe in the same thing I do will be damned to an eternity in Hell. I will NEVER impose my beliefs on anyone else.

Perhaps you may say that I believe in a "higher power". I don't know.
But I know that this thread has been far derailed.
10/29/2012 01:46:37 PM · #58
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by slickchik:
Originally posted by Cory:
1. Your beliefs are silly


This is not ok in the least bit. Everyone has a right to an opinion and to believe what they choose to believe. However, it is not ok to impose your belief system on anyone else.

Why is it ok for you to call his belief in Christianity silly but it not ok for me to call your belief about same-sex marriage silly?

BTW, I am not saying your beliefs are silly. And I'm not saying I agree or disagree with your beliefs. I'm just saying everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs EVEN IF it goes against popular culture.


Umm. It is ok. When did I ever say it wasn't?

By the way, same-sex marriage is real, and I can prove it. I would invite you, or anyone, to prove to me that "god hates fags"



..

Ignoring that though, how can you be so silly as to think I have beliefs? I am not religious or a believer. I try quite hard to operate only upon that which can be demonstrated...


I know EXACTLY where that is at! I was there not long ago.
GREAT capture. Sorry. Just had to state that.
10/29/2012 01:47:05 PM · #59
Originally posted by giantmike:

For the record, I agree with most, if not all, of what Cory says in this thread. I think he's doing a great job trying to open people's eyes and minds.


What's this? Have pigs actually learned to fly? ;)

.

(Really though in all seriousness, thanks Mike, it's honestly good to know that I don't just sound like a total nutjob and that the message I'm trying to send is getting through the noise.)
 10/29/2012 01:48:36 PM · #60
Originally posted by Cory:

Ignoring that though, how can you be so silly as to think I have beliefs? I am not religious or a believer. I try quite hard to operate only upon that which can be demonstrated...


Oh, i'm pretty sure you have beliefs somewhere along the line Cory even if not overtly religious ones. I think the only way human beings and their big brains can even function is by running with a number of beliefs about their reality and taking them as granted.
 10/29/2012 01:54:21 PM · #61
Originally posted by rooum:
Originally posted by Cory:

Ignoring that though, how can you be so silly as to think I have beliefs? I am not religious or a believer. I try quite hard to operate only upon that which can be demonstrated...


Oh, i'm pretty sure you have beliefs somewhere along the line Cory even if not overtly religious ones. I think the only way human beings and their big brains can even function is by running with a number of beliefs about their reality and taking them as granted.


You're very right. Which is, of course, why I prefaced that with "try".

We have to make a lot of assumptions, and have certain types of faith, it's a requirement of life.
I have to have faith that the elevators have been inspected and are working properly.
I have to have faith in the aircraft mechanic who works on my plane.

I have to make a huge number of assumptions every day, for me, the key is trying to make the assumptions based upon facts that can be verified to be true. People often confuse this matter by trying to tie everyday faith/assumptions/beliefs in with religious faith/beliefs. The fact is that they are very different, and shouldn't be compared as such.

Besides, all of the "faith" I have is directly related to how I'm living my life - in the end, my faith in the elevators and planes won't have any real effect upon your life, in fact, if asked, I would advise you to distrust both.

I think I would prefer to call what I operate on "fact or statistically based assumptions". Quite different from the beliefs and faith we are currently discussing.

Another VERY important fact is that our perception is not true to reality. My own eyes have lied to me many times, that's one of the reasons I think the scientific method to be far superior to magical thinking. We know that what we see, and our very reality, isn't always as truthful as we might like to think it is.

(See Allegory of the Cave for clarification on this point. :) )

Message edited by author 2012-10-29 14:04:58.
 10/29/2012 02:04:58 PM · #62
I believe there's a huge storm over the Atlantic coming your way because of atmospheric conditions. I bet there are people so confused with religion that they think god is pissed off at gays and is punishing the east coast for it.

Just saying...
 10/29/2012 02:05:29 PM · #63
Originally posted by HCvE:
I believe there's a huge storm over the Atlantic coming your way because of atmospheric conditions. I bet there are people so confused with religion that they think god is pissed off at gays and is punishing the east coast for it.

Just saying...


You can bet on it, and it's John McTernan this time.

Perhaps he should take a bit of time to read something aside from the good book - Magical Thinking

Message edited by author 2012-10-29 14:10:19.
 10/29/2012 02:10:16 PM · #64
Originally posted by Cory:


Frankly, I don't know that I can say I have more respect for Marko - at least Westboro isn't being deceitful about what they believe. Marko seems to be trying, very hard, to maintain political correctness, which is nothing more than re-branded self serving deception. Of course, again, this goes back to the honesty problem - we, as a society, view honesty as more evil than deception. How many churches a decade ago were 100% anti-gay? Today many of those same churches are preaching for acceptance - not because they really believe in it, but rather, because they fear the backlash that would result from honestly addressing their views.



Please do not compare me to those people. I am by NO means equal to them. I may have my views against certain things but I would never in a million years voice my opinion in a hateful/disrespectful way. Cory, could you explain this sentence to me as I am having a little bit of a hard time understanding what you are meaning by it... "Marko seems to be trying, very hard, to maintain political correctness, which is nothing more than re-branded self serving deception." Are you saying that I am trying to be too nice without hurting feelings and because of this I am deceitful? Slightly confused about this sentence...

Sorry if I have caused a minor fight between us, Cory. I do think we are friends and something like this would never get between that. I know your views are not the same as mine and that is something I respect.
 10/29/2012 02:14:34 PM · #65
@ Cory

I don't entirely disagree. But i do with some of what you say. Although most of my own, let's say spiritual as i've never been involved with major religious groups or ideas, beliefs have been shaped by experience even if i fully admit that some of those experiences might have been in my head. Fair enough- it doesn't make them any less relevant to me and my life and, besides, we humans tend to have very big heads which we still know very little about really. I'm happy to follow a fiction if that fiction is challenging and interesting and valuable to myself and those around me and is not maladaptive or judgemental of others. Our lack of knowledge about consciousness tends to be a bit of a straw bedrock on which all our other fact based evidence lies but that's fair enough. I'm all for following the evidence and love science and evolution but i'd describe myself as an agnostic as i truly do not know if there is a creator or not. What i will say, though, is i can't really get behind the idea of a loving Christian-esque type creator. For me, that doesn't really add up considering what a grim and horrific world this is. Maybe we're an alien science experiment or a sadistic child's video game.

As to others beliefs i tend to try and separate people from their religions and other systems and groups really. If you're a Muslim and a homophobe then i don't like you because you are a homophobe who just happens to be a Muslim. If you are a Christian and a racist then i won't like you because you are a racist who happens to be a Christian. I do it this way because i've found that, whilst many people often use their religious beliefs as a source of their bigotry, i suspect that the opposite is mostly true. That people will often use religion as an excuse for already deep seated prejudices. Take the Christianity out of a homophobe and he/she will still be a homophobe i suspect. Just one who doesn't quote arcane parts of the bible to justify it. Just my 2 pence worth.

Sorry, that's all a bit rambling as i'm trying to a few things at once but you get my point perhaps.

Message edited by author 2012-10-29 14:46:33.
 10/29/2012 02:15:53 PM · #66
Originally posted by Cory:

(See Allegory of the Cave for clarification on this point. :) )


Yes, Plato's cave was what i had in mind when i posted Cory.
 10/29/2012 02:49:02 PM · #67
Originally posted by mbrutus2009:
Originally posted by Cory:


Frankly, I don't know that I can say I have more respect for Marko - at least Westboro isn't being deceitful about what they believe. Marko seems to be trying, very hard, to maintain political correctness, which is nothing more than re-branded self serving deception. Of course, again, this goes back to the honesty problem - we, as a society, view honesty as more evil than deception. How many churches a decade ago were 100% anti-gay? Today many of those same churches are preaching for acceptance - not because they really believe in it, but rather, because they fear the backlash that would result from honestly addressing their views.



Please do not compare me to those people. I am by NO means equal to them. I may have my views against certain things but I would never in a million years voice my opinion in a hateful/disrespectful way. Cory, could you explain this sentence to me as I am having a little bit of a hard time understanding what you are meaning by it... "Marko seems to be trying, very hard, to maintain political correctness, which is nothing more than re-branded self serving deception." Are you saying that I am trying to be too nice without hurting feelings and because of this I am deceitful? Slightly confused about this sentence...

Sorry if I have caused a minor fight between us, Cory. I do think we are friends and something like this would never get between that. I know your views are not the same as mine and that is something I respect.


First, it's perfectly OK, I just hope it doesn't harm our friendship. :) Like I said long ago in this thread - you are my friend Marko, no matter how much we may disagree on this, and I don't intend on that changing. :)

Now, back to the lambasting of deceased equine:

What I'm saying is that you are torn between being socially acceptable, and following what you claim to strongly believe. I think that is a much weaker, and therefore less respectable, position than that of the hate mongers at Westboro, as they are at least being very true to themselves.

So, I'm not saying that you're being too nice, in fact I'm saying quite the opposite - but my real point is that in my world, if you really believe something, then you believe it, fully and with every bit of yourself. You really can't pick and choose the bits of the bible you like, and are popular at the moment - either you think the bible is right, or you think it is wrong. I don't have much respect for those who are hardline about the bits they like, but abandon the bits they don't care for or that are likely to cause them to become social pariahs. I see this as base deception, of course - in all fairness I think it's your leaders who are responsible, and they deceive their own far more often and effectively than the deceive anyone else.

I am sorry if comparing you to them hurts your feelings Marko, but they are Christians as well, and you are therefore absolutely linked together in many people's minds - face the facts, they are one of the more vocal representatives of Christianity in today's world. You are not them, I know that, but you do share a significant link, and apparently agree with them on Gay Marriage, for the exact reasons they so loudly cite. The difference between you and them is very small on the issue of Gay Marriage - the only real difference is not ideological, but practical, in that you prefer to confront the problem in a somewhat passive aggressive manner, while they prefer to just go full-nuclear from the start.

Of course, I also associate Christians with Jim and Tammy Bakker, and Eddie Long. The list is actually rather extensive. Of course, those were the ones who both got caught, and were doing something that was actually illegal, not just immoral. Sorry, but I just can't trust any organization that tells me to avoid thinking for myself, and assures me that I should trust them, then promises me something that just sounds too good to be true (and can't be proven or disproven), in return for my dedicated service to them. I think the phrase is "Oceanfront property in Arizona".

See my "Have your cake and eat it too" comment from earlier. You have to take the good with the bad, and I think the Westboro folks are at least somewhat respectable in that they don't seem to hedge at all out of fear of reprisal. Don't get me wrong though, those folks are f-ing nutjobs, and I'm not calling you worse than them in any way, I just have a certain level of respect for their whole-hearted and honest dedication to their insanity.

And as part of that cake and eat it too, don't think I don't recognize the good that Christians do, I have seen and heard about many kind acts by Christians. Of course I've seen many kind acts and generous giving by non-Christians as well, so don't make the mistake of thinking you have that market locked up. In fact, my big problem is that most of the good could be done without the church, but most of the bad would be impossible without the church. That's a rather simplified statement, and I realize that it can be picked apart here and there with examples, but I think the general concept is quite sound - there have been many bad men who couldn't have done what they did if they didn't have religion to use as a tool in their mission to defraud, rape, and otherwise pillage the good and poor pious souls who were foolish enough to follow them.

--

In the end, I just try to ask "Why is this the way it is, who wins, who loses, and what is at stake?" when anything like this comes up.

I think the motivations of the gay community is pretty clear.

The motivations of the religious organizations are somewhat harder to figure out, but I suspect there are a few things at play:
1. Gay sex means no babies, and no babies means less future earning power for the parish.
2. Publicly acknowledged acceptance of gay sex weakens the power of the religious organization, and the rule of the bible, as it is openly in disagreement with Christian values and law.
3. Shame is a powerful tool, and that shame has been used throughout history to compel people to submit to the will of other people - this isn't limited to just the gays by any means.

Essentially, it boils down to the usual suspects Marko - money and power. Greed fuels the world I'm afraid, and the sad irony is that those who claim to be above greed are often the greatest purveyors of the very thing they claim to despise.

What puzzles me is how anyone can fail to see this, as it all appears to be so plain to me.
.
.

Tell me Marko, why is Gay marriage and homosexual behavior wrong? - If you can answer that and refrain from citing anything related to your religion's value system, then I would be very interested in what you have to say, and you might convert me to opposition of gay marriage before we're done here.
 10/29/2012 02:55:51 PM · #68
The problem is when the religious expect the non religious to follow "their" rules when they are even unable to follow them. Love and acceptance is taught foremost by Jesus and he condemned the religious leaders of the time for how they treated others. If Christians were actually like their namesake and were Christ like we would have far fewer problems. As it is Christians are among the least Christ like of all people.
 10/29/2012 03:04:07 PM · #69
Originally posted by giantmike:
...For the record, I agree with most, if not all, of what Cory says in this thread. I think he's doing a great job trying to open people's eyes and minds.

Cory can speak for me on this subject. I don't have the patience for it.
 10/29/2012 03:14:52 PM · #70
Originally posted by mike_311:
here is the problem, you are allowed to feel how ever you want and you are allowed to practice your beliefs as you see fit, as yourself and in your home. the minute you offer a service to the public, you are not, repeat not, allowed to discriminate against any client base, if you do you can be sued.

Funny. I can open carry (and conceal carry) a gun in Colorado. It is the law and a Constitutional right. BUT, if I go into a store or restaurant carrying and they don't like it, they can refuse ME service and ask ME to leave. Interesting how this parallels the OP. Can I sue?!?
 10/29/2012 03:18:19 PM · #71
Originally posted by rooum:
@ Cory

I don't entirely disagree. But i do with some of what you say. Although most of my own, let's say spiritual as i've never been involved with major religious groups or ideas, beliefs have been shaped by experience even if i fully admit that some of those experiences might have been in my head. Fair enough- it doesn't make them any less relevant to me and my life and, besides, we humans tend to have very big heads which we still know very little about really. I'm happy to follow a fiction if that fiction is challenging and interesting and valuable to myself and those around me and is not maladaptive or judgemental of others. Our lack of knowledge about consciousness tends to be a bit of a straw bedrock on which all our other fact based evidence lies but that's fair enough. I'm all for following the evidence and love science and evolution but i'd describe myself as an agnostic as i truly do not know if there is a creator or not. What i will say, though, is i can't really get behind the idea of a loving Christian-esque type creator. For me, that doesn't really add up considering what a grim and horrific world this is. Maybe we're an alien science experiment or a sadistic child's video game.

As to others beliefs i tend to try and separate people from their religions and other systems and groups really. If you're a Muslim and a homophobe then i don't like you because you are a homophobe who just happens to be a Muslim. If you are a Christian and a racist then i won't like you because you are a racist who happens to be a Christian. I do it this way because i've found that, whilst many people often use their religious beliefs as a source of their bigotry, i suspect that the opposite is mostly true. That people will often use religion as an excuse for already deep seated prejudices. Take the Christianity out of a homophobe and he/she will still be a homophobe i suspect. Just one who doesn't quote arcane parts of the bible to justify it. Just my 2 pence worth.

Sorry, that's all a bit rambling as i'm trying to a few things at once but you get my point perhaps.


You make fine and good sense. Your brand of faith seems to be exactly what I would choose for myself if I was the sort, and not that it matters, but I wholeheartedly approve of your attitude and views.

Marko himself can actually attest to the fact I do not mistreat Christians or make them unwelcome in my home. I may debate with you until you want to scream at me, and I might say things that will hurt your feelings too, but let it be known that I would gladly welcome you into my home, pour a beer for you, and cook dinner any time. Why? Because in the end, those are just the little boxes we try to fit the world into, and each of us thinks our box is shaped best - while in the end some people may just prefer an artistically shaped box, while others want an efficient box, and yet others just want a strong rigid box... Such is the reality of our world, and our species.

Of course, I've been personally persecuted by Christians, so I have a bit of a hard time separating people from their religion, since it is a choice they make, and are actively supporting the church and all that it stands for. (Really guys, your most prominent mark is actually a representation of a horrible torture and execution device... That just seriously creeps me out). And of course, you avoided the only real problem I have with anyone - once they start to tell me how to live my life, then we have issues.
 10/29/2012 03:33:50 PM · #72
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by Spork99:

No, what you're doing is taking all Christians and lumping them together. You're placing people like Marko in with people like the Westboro Baptists, which is simply not right. Your ignorance of differences between different Christian groups isn't just ignorance because you seem to know that they exist, that makes it far worse.


They do use the same book don't they? Same god? Same Jesus right?

The difference as I see it boils down to Marko quietly stating that he won't do anything to help someone because they are gay, while Westboro feels the need to print signs up and stand on a corner screaming about the same. Sure, Marko is simmering away on a nice steady 5 while Westboro has cranked it up to 11, but that doesn't mean that there is significant differences in the base ideology.

Frankly, I don't know that I can say I have more respect for Marko - at least Westboro isn't being deceitful about what they believe. Marko seems to be trying, very hard, to maintain political correctness, which is nothing more than re-branded self serving deception. Of course, again, this goes back to the honesty problem - we, as a society, view honesty as more evil than deception. How many churches a decade ago were 100% anti-gay? Today many of those same churches are preaching for acceptance - not because they really believe in it, but rather, because they fear the backlash that would result from honestly addressing their views.

...

Besides, to be fair, it's not just the Christian organizations that I take issue with. I'm actually lumping Marko in with every religious organization in the world.

I'd like to give you a great example of just one reason for my distaste of religious organizations, one that applies to every Christian (and other religious person) in the US.

The government discriminates against me, as a non-religious person, when compared to every other religious person in the country, it's systematic and very well executed. How? Taxes. As a religious person, you can give your friend (pastor) your money, which you can then, of course, claim as being exempt from government taxation - your pastor will then simply spend the money on your behalf, often on parties and other social functions, along with real property investments and vacation travel (missions)... All the while, I as a non-religious person, am unable to escape any tax burden whatsoever in this manner, since I don't have an organization set up to help me do this.

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of examples of this sort of thing, this is just one that is well documented and damned hard to argue that I'm making things up or imagining stuff. (not that I don't expect you to try).

..

And as I said, extracting the Christian from Christianity is darn difficult, nearly as difficult is extracting Christianity from the greater concept of Religion. So as long as I have a problem with the church, it seems to be that it will be my burden to have a problem with every Christian, as they are unable to distance themselves from that which they have invested their lives into. For what it's worth, at least on that point, I do have great sympathy.


By your same reasoning, you, as a white man, should be cast in the same light as the KKK and other white supremacists, after all, you're all the same color, right? from the same country. bound by the same laws, right?

Your government tax thing is just bullshit. You could donate to any number of tax exempt secular charities that would have the same kind of parties, mission trips etc. You just have to look. But then you wouldn't have this bullshit argument to fall back on.

10/29/2012 03:43:11 PM · #73
Originally posted by Denielle:



I know EXACTLY where that is at! I was there not long ago.
GREAT capture. Sorry. Just had to state that.


thanks...it reamins my personal favorite. glad it found it's way into this discussion, thanks for that cory.

also glad to see two people i consider friends can disagree civilly. cory may be blunt sometimes, but he's honest about what he thinks and i know his intent isn't to hurt. just to analyze logically. i believe him when he says he might change his stance if a non-religion-based logical argument could be made.
 10/29/2012 03:54:43 PM · #74
Originally posted by Spork99:


By your same reasoning, you, as a white man, should be cast in the same light as the KKK and other white supremacists, after all, you're all the same color, right? from the same country. bound by the same laws, right?

Your government tax thing is just bullshit. You could donate to any number of tax exempt secular charities that would have the same kind of parties, mission trips etc. You just have to look. But then you wouldn't have this bullshit argument to fall back on.


Not quite, since I was BORN a white man, and have no choice in the matter. Which is quite different from joining a group through choice.

Now, if I decided to join the KKK, then yes, you would be right for holding me responsible for their actions as a group. The difference here isn't hard to see, and I'm sure I don't need to elaborate.

As far as the tax thing, I would be very interested to hear what groups you are aware of, all of the ones I've found pretty much require you to be religious as that's how they dodge the taxman.

Message edited by author 2012-10-29 16:03:54.
 10/29/2012 04:00:18 PM · #75
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by Spork99:


By your same reasoning, you, as a white man, should be cast in the same light as the KKK and other white supremacists, after all, you're all the same color, right? from the same country. bound by the same laws, right?

Your government tax thing is just bullshit. You could donate to any number of tax exempt secular charities that would have the same kind of parties, mission trips etc. You just have to look. But then you wouldn't have this bullshit argument to fall back on.


Not quite, since I was BORN a white man, and have no choice in the matter. Which is quite different from joining a group through choice.

Now, if I decided to join the KKK, then yes, you would be right for holding me responsible for their actions as a group. The difference here isn't hard to see, and I'm sure I don't need to elaborate.

As far as the tax thing, I would be very interested to hear what groups you are aware of, all of the ones I've found pretty much require you to be religious.


So, someone like yourself who's all for prejudicial lumping together of people to make them easier to despise is willing to make that sort of distinction for themselves to avoid being cast in the same light as a hate group, but you're not willing to do the same for others. Got it.
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