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09/25/2012 01:40:57 PM · #101 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Remember; legality" is an arbitrary concept, but the labor itself is tangible and measurable. |
Perhaps. But in any case, I don't see them paying into the systems from which they are benefiting... Not that it's entirely their fault or something like that, as even if they WANTED to, they couldn't pay in.
So, while, yes I do think they are economically needed, the same argument can be made for coal power plants. It's a matter of the overall effect that I am concerned about.
We have a class of people in this country, which is growing very fast, who do not pay in, yet do take out.... It's pretty simple math really, and I can't see any way around the fact that they either need to start paying in, or stop taking out. Why is that so terribly hard to agree to, and seems to be so controversial? |
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09/25/2012 01:46:37 PM · #102 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Flash:
Regardless if the piece is biased or not, financed by a conservative or not, is the policy of financially aiding illegals (housing, food, medical care, transportation, education, etc) a policy you support? That is the discussion. |
No, the "discussion" should be whether the "illegal" immigrants are a positive or negative force on the economy. Whether or not we SUPPORT government aid to these people would be influenced by the result of that discussion. And a significant majority of professional economists, as far as I know, believe these people are a net plus for the economy. This is certainly the case in California, where a lot of what we take for granted would come to a screeching halt without immigrant (read "Mexican") labor. |
Are these the same economists that believe there is a growing wealth gap?
Regardless, they both are fine discussions to have. You can't call either discussion invalid. Yet neither is really applicable to the section 8 case at hand. We don't know if she's an illegal or even an immigrant for that matter. However, per my understanding, illegals cannot obtain section 8 assistance (unless I misunderstood it - although I'm certain there are ways around it).
The way I see it, the biggest difference between an illegal and an immigrant is in regards to taxes paid. Illegals basically pay no federal taxes because they don't exist on paper. However, I wonder how many legal immigrants actually pay any measurable amount of federal taxes due to the tax code. So maybe my point is moot. |
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09/25/2012 01:53:59 PM · #103 |
Originally posted by JamesDowning:
You can't call either discussion invalid. Yet neither is really applicable to the section 8 case at hand. |
Agreed. But I didn't bring it up, Flash did (or somebody before him for all I know). |
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09/25/2012 01:59:04 PM · #104 |
Originally posted by JamesDowning:
However, I wonder how many legal immigrants actually pay any measurable amount of federal taxes due to the tax code. So maybe my point is moot. |
If you're talking about INCOME tax, minimum-wage workers don't usually have to pay any, agreed. But there are all sorts of other taxes that are unavoidable, and are deducted from everyone's paycheck. Plus the "consumption taxes" (sales tax and the like) plus the "road taxes" (on gasoline and such taxes) plus the real estate taxes (that are embedded in the rent they pay to the landlord) plus... you get the idea.
"Legal" or "illegal", they all are caught up in a lot of the same machinery as the rest of us.
Message edited by author 2012-09-25 13:59:46. |
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09/25/2012 02:00:01 PM · #105 |
Originally posted by JamesDowning:
Are these the same economists that believe there is a growing wealth gap? |
You mean the US Census Bureau? |
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09/25/2012 02:04:52 PM · #106 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by JamesDowning:
However, I wonder how many legal immigrants actually pay any measurable amount of federal taxes due to the tax code. So maybe my point is moot. |
If you're talking about INCOME tax, minimum-wage workers don't usually have to pay any, agreed. |
"Illegals" working at a minimum-wage job will likely pay more taxes than any of us, because they almost certainly can't file a tax return to reclaim what's withheld from their paycheck (remember, the employer is supposed to be thinking they're "legal"), and they'll never collect on the Social Security or Medicare taxes (and any state or local taxes) which may also be withheld ... |
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09/25/2012 02:27:57 PM · #107 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by JamesDowning:
However, I wonder how many legal immigrants actually pay any measurable amount of federal taxes due to the tax code. So maybe my point is moot. |
If you're talking about INCOME tax, minimum-wage workers don't usually have to pay any, agreed. |
"Illegals" working at a minimum-wage job will likely pay more taxes than any of us, because they almost certainly can't file a tax return to reclaim what's withheld from their paycheck (remember, the employer is supposed to be thinking they're "legal"), and they'll never collect on the Social Security or Medicare taxes (and any state or local taxes) which may also be withheld ... |
One of the benefits of hiring illegals is that there isn't a tax record. Especially on farms, migrant workers are often paid in cash - which of course reduces the cost to the employer even further than simply employing illegal labor.
In other words, while you are right for at least a reasonable portion of the people that can be classified as illegal immigrants, you are most certainly are nicely skipping over the group to which this thread is (sorta?kinda?) applicable.
Some flight of ideas here is just fine in my opinion - since these issues are, at their core, very similar and related. |
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09/25/2012 02:52:17 PM · #108 |
Originally posted by Cory:
One of the benefits of hiring illegals is that there isn't a tax record. Especially on farms, migrant workers are often paid in cash - which of course reduces the cost to the employer even further than simply employing illegal labor. |
Farms do not get their labor in front of Home Depot. They are businesses with high levels of regulation and often house their workers. Believe it or not farm labor is a pretty skilled labor. My family had a horse ranch in central California, in a farm town, where most of the labor was probably illegal, but we didn't know it- legally. We were given documents that looked perfectly legal. In fact I know where the shop is that makes them is located.
We paid Social Security, Worker's Comp, Disability, the whole legal obligation, just like anyone else who plans to file taxes and not go to prison does. I would bet few of those tax payments ever got paid back to our workers. Last year the Social Security Administration collected seven billion dollars in payments that they could not link to any account; it is believed most of that money was payed to illegal workers.
Part of government's resistance to fixing the broken immigration system is the massive support of "lost" payments (that end up going into the general fund) makes to keep the budget close. If the immigration system gets fixed and those lost dollars end up in the pocket of employees, it would be very tough on both the feds and the states. |
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09/25/2012 03:12:17 PM · #109 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by Cory:
One of the benefits of hiring illegals is that there isn't a tax record. Especially on farms, migrant workers are often paid in cash - which of course reduces the cost to the employer even further than simply employing illegal labor. |
Farms do not get their labor in front of Home Depot. They are businesses with high levels of regulation and often house their workers. Believe it or not farm labor is a pretty skilled labor. |
Washington Growers Face Near-Record Harvest, Worker Shortage
Originally posted by Linked Article:
While the company has had some success recruiting workers from other states, not enough people are coming forward, Bairstow said in an earlier email. And despite having raised the starting wage to $11 an hour they are not finding many takers.
âThe traditional critique is âyou guys complain about (labor shortages) every year,ââ Bairstow said Monday. But while manpower shortages have occurred regionally in the past, this time it is a nationwide phenomenon.
Bairstow attributed the major cause of the problem to increased deportations of undocumented immigrants. The present administration, taking up from the previous one, has been deporting people in record numbers, he said. But while politically popular, the policy is taking its toll on the agricultural sector.
âThe quandary for agriculture is we canât talk about border security without talking about food security,â he said. |
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09/25/2012 03:23:32 PM · #110 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by Cory:
One of the benefits of hiring illegals is that there isn't a tax record. Especially on farms, migrant workers are often paid in cash - which of course reduces the cost to the employer even further than simply employing illegal labor. |
Farms do not get their labor in front of Home Depot. They are businesses with high levels of regulation and often house their workers. Believe it or not farm labor is a pretty skilled labor. My family had a horse ranch in central California, in a farm town, where most of the labor was probably illegal, but we didn't know it- legally. We were given documents that looked perfectly legal. In fact I know where the shop is that makes them is located.
We paid Social Security, Worker's Comp, Disability, the whole legal obligation, just like anyone else who plans to file taxes and not go to prison does. I would bet few of those tax payments ever got paid back to our workers. Last year the Social Security Administration collected seven billion dollars in payments that they could not link to any account; it is believed most of that money was payed to illegal workers.
Part of government's resistance to fixing the broken immigration system is the massive support of "lost" payments (that end up going into the general fund) makes to keep the budget close. If the immigration system gets fixed and those lost dollars end up in the pocket of employees, it would be very tough on both the feds and the states. |
Well, I'd love to give specifics, but suffice to say that I've seen it work just like I proposed, I'm not talking about theory, but rather relating what I've actually seen.
I agree that they are getting screwed when they do pay in, but you seem to have been running with some pretty clean folks - you can believe that regulation works, and that most workers are paying in taxes. Clearly, I can't prove it, but having grown up in a neighborhood that feared La Migra, I can tell you that there are hundreds of jobs that don't pay taxes - almost all of them are labor jobs, but since when do most people get a 1099 for their housekeeper? What about the gardener?
Aside from all of this, I'm betting that quite a few illegals really do utilize a 1099, and simply don't file.
I agree that some workers are paying in, but you're making it sound like there aren't a hundred ways to get around it, and it's important to remember that we are already dealing with people who, as a group by definition, aren't exactly inclined to follow the rules. |
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09/25/2012 03:25:08 PM · #111 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Linked Article:
While the company has had some success recruiting workers from other states, not enough people are coming forward, Bairstow said in an earlier email. And despite having raised the starting wage to $11 an hour they are not finding many takers.
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It's not the money, it's the fact that you need to speak Spanish in order to understand the crew boss. |
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09/25/2012 03:32:13 PM · #112 |
Originally posted by Cory:
It's not the money, it's the fact that you need to speak Spanish in order to understand the crew boss. |
Wow Cory, that is a new level. I know it is pouring water on desert sands, but crew bosses are chosen partly because they speak the English, so the employer can tell the crew what to do. But don't let me stop you, keep going.
Message edited by author 2012-09-25 15:32:41. |
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09/25/2012 03:47:17 PM · #113 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by Cory:
It's not the money, it's the fact that you need to speak Spanish in order to understand the crew boss. |
Wow Cory, that is a new level. I know it is pouring water on desert sands, but crew bosses are chosen partly because they speak the English, so the employer can tell the crew what to do. But don't let me stop you, keep going. |
:)
Perhaps the crew boss was a bad example, and I should have followed that up with a ;)....
But here's the rub - I don't want to work surrounded by people who I can't even have a conversation with, and I can't believe that you would either. I have known a couple of those crew bosses, and let's just say that being able to communicate with an English speaker is quite different from actually speaking English. I am quite able to communicate with the loads of people here in Miami who do not speak English, but I can't claim to be able to have a reasonable conversation with them in their language or my own.
The farms continually complain about a lack of labor, and that residents won't take the jobs. I'm fairly confident that the money is not the biggest driving factor for those who don't want these jobs. I know lots of guys who bust their butts to make $10-12 an hour in construction, so I can't imagine that there isn't a decent labor base, it's just a matter of culture.
Of course, the vast majority of Americans don't actually know shit about the way the world works below the table, as it's a place they don't venture - I'm not saying this is you, and I'm not saying it isn't... But I am curious what your qualifications are here, do you just read stuff or have you been in the world we are discussing? How many of the folks "cheating" the system are people you know well? I can list off at least 30 that are people who I know well, and at least a few I call friends... I have a dozen or so old acquaintances that are constantly in and out of prison, and a few who are in for life for various reasons. I don't know what your qualifications are, but from where I'm standing, the world looks pretty well stocked with the cheaters and the leaches that I'm talking about.
Be VERY clear on this point though - there are MANY wonderful and amazing people who are immigrants, and I don't intend to disparage them. Frankly, as a percentage of the group's population, I'm confident that they are far from the top in terms of people who are cheating the system.
Message edited by author 2012-09-25 15:52:08. |
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09/25/2012 03:49:14 PM · #114 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by JamesDowning:
However, I wonder how many legal immigrants actually pay any measurable amount of federal taxes due to the tax code. So maybe my point is moot. |
If you're talking about INCOME tax, minimum-wage workers don't usually have to pay any, agreed. But there are all sorts of other taxes that are unavoidable, and are deducted from everyone's paycheck. Plus the "consumption taxes" (sales tax and the like) plus the "road taxes" (on gasoline and such taxes) plus the real estate taxes (that are embedded in the rent they pay to the landlord) plus... you get the idea.
"Legal" or "illegal", they all are caught up in a lot of the same machinery as the rest of us. |
Keep in mind, I said Federal Taxes. Property, consuption taxes, and gas taxes are all state or local.
Originally posted by GeneralE:
"Illegals" working at a minimum-wage job will likely pay more taxes than any of us, because they almost certainly can't file a tax return to reclaim what's withheld from their paycheck (remember, the employer is supposed to be thinking they're "legal"), and they'll never collect on the Social Security or Medicare taxes (and any state or local taxes) which may also be withheld ... |
I'm not sure you can go so far as to say that they will "pay more taxes than any of us". They may end up paying more taxes than their legal peers. They are certainly not getting a very good investment return for their SS payments, but neither are we.
Originally posted by GeneralE:
You mean the US Census Bureau? |
The Census Bureau is only a data source. They do not necessarily interpret the data associated with social stratification, at least so I've seen.
Message edited by author 2012-09-25 15:53:56. |
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09/25/2012 04:09:06 PM · #115 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Of course, the vast majority of Americans don't actually know shit about the way the world works below the table, as it's a place they don't venture - I'm not saying this is you, and I'm not saying it isn't... But I am curious what your qualifications are here, do you just read stuff or have you been in the world we are discussing? |
I am curious about your vast knowledge of farm labor also. Is there a great deal of that in Miami?
From my junior high years on my family flipped apartment buildings. Buy bad ones in marginal neighborhoods, fix them up, get in good renters, hold them a bit and sell them.
We also raised horses from a few head,until when we got out we had 320 horses on a ranch in Gilroy California. Farm country, garlic capitol of the world. Good taqueria for good reason.
Then I made a living as a small scale residential building contractor in Boston (the illegals are Irish there so no one minds) and east of San Francisco in California. So I have fixed up the apartments of immigrants, have worked next to them, and hired them. I have watched folks of dubious immigration status work American born kids into the ground time after time.
If you think speaking Spanish is the reason those $11 an hour jobs are going begging, I will bet you have never done a day's farm labor in your life. Most Americans can't keep up the pace. in construction I have had 20 year old kids draw their pay at lunch (at $15/ hour) because hauling railroad tie was too hard. They spoke fondly of being mall cops. I have never seen a Salvadoran, a Guatemalan or a Honduran quit on a job because it was too hard. hard work and learning a trade are highly valued south of the border, much much less here. |
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09/25/2012 04:16:41 PM · #116 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
If you think speaking Spanish is the reason those $11 an hour jobs are going begging, I will bet you have never done a day's farm labor in your life. Most Americans can't keep up the pace. in construction I have had 20 year old kids draw their pay at lunch (at $15/ hour) because hauling railroad tie was too hard. They spoke fondly of being mall cops. I have never seen a Salvadoran, a Guatemalan or a Honduran quit on a job because it was too hard. hard work and learning a trade are highly valued south of the border, much much less here. |
I agree wholeheartedly. So many US kids aren't growing up with any knowledge of what hard work is. They feel entitled to everything they are given when growing up. They either see their parents unemployed, living off of the government, or they don't work a day of their life until after college where they get a cushy desk job.
But I don't think it's an argument to allow illegal workers... it's an indictment of the way we are raising our population. |
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09/25/2012 04:20:27 PM · #117 |
Originally posted by JamesDowning:
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
If you think speaking Spanish is the reason those $11 an hour jobs are going begging, I will bet you have never done a day's farm labor in your life. Most Americans can't keep up the pace. in construction I have had 20 year old kids draw their pay at lunch (at $15/ hour) because hauling railroad tie was too hard. They spoke fondly of being mall cops. I have never seen a Salvadoran, a Guatemalan or a Honduran quit on a job because it was too hard. hard work and learning a trade are highly valued south of the border, much much less here. |
I agree wholeheartedly. So many US kids aren't growing up with any knowledge of what hard work is. They feel entitled to everything they are given when growing up. They either see their parents unemployed, living off of the government, or they don't work a day of their life until after college where they get a cushy desk job.
But I don't think it's an argument to allow illegal workers... it's an indictment of the way we are raising our population. |
+1 |
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09/25/2012 04:25:11 PM · #118 |
| I'll add that, as a parent of 4 grown kids, I blame myself for their attitude and condition (as described by James). I was raised very differently than I raised my kids. Society condemns the way I grew up - and as to some of the details, rightly so - but we have really gone off the deep end and I believe the result is much worse than what we had before. And no, I don't think this is simply a case of us getting older and complaining about "kids these days". |
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09/25/2012 04:26:22 PM · #119 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
I'll add that, as a parent of 4 grown kids, I blame myself for their attitude and condition (as described by James). I was raised very differently than I raised my kids. Society condemns the way I grew up - and as to some of the details, rightly so - but we have really gone off the deep end and I believe the result is much worse than what we had before. And no, I don't think this is simply a case of us getting older and complaining about "kids these days". |
eta: Shout out to Brennan from Gilroy - I grew up in South San Jose. :)
eta: note to self: EDIT button not the damn QUOTE button. Doh!
Message edited by author 2012-09-25 16:27:10. |
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09/25/2012 05:01:14 PM · #120 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by Cory:
Of course, the vast majority of Americans don't actually know shit about the way the world works below the table, as it's a place they don't venture - I'm not saying this is you, and I'm not saying it isn't... But I am curious what your qualifications are here, do you just read stuff or have you been in the world we are discussing? |
I am curious about your vast knowledge of farm labor also. Is there a great deal of that in Miami? |
Sure is, at least on the sugar farms, and probably the strawberry farms as well. But my experience with farms is limited to Colorado and New Mexico, and yes, I have been directly involved with four different operations, three of which heavily utilized "alternative" labor.
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
From my junior high years on my family flipped apartment buildings. Buy bad ones in marginal neighborhoods, fix them up, get in good renters, hold them a bit and sell them.
We also raised horses from a few head,until when we got out we had 320 horses on a ranch in Gilroy California. Farm country, garlic capitol of the world. Good taqueria for good reason.
Then I made a living as a small scale residential building contractor in Boston (the illegals are Irish there so no one minds) and east of San Francisco in California. So I have fixed up the apartments of immigrants, have worked next to them, and hired them. I have watched folks of dubious immigration status work American born kids into the ground time after time.
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I can't disagree with your conclusion, and I think that's another issue around Americans not wanting these "jobs".. But compare European work hours and vacation terms etc to Americans, and it's pretty obvious we aren't quite the lazy dolts that some would like to pretend we are, however we are incredibly fat as a nation...
Owning the buildings puts you there as an outsider, so I can't say that really counts quite the same as growing up in the group and living day to day as a member of the group.... I'm pretty sure none of your renters ever really filled you in on the illegal or questionable activities they were engaged in.. I, on the other hand, was a participant in such activities many, many times.
Of course you were closer working with them, but even then, were you Hefe or were you Pedro?Originally posted by BrennanOB:
If you think speaking Spanish is the reason those $11 an hour jobs are going begging, I will bet you have never done a day's farm labor in your life. Most Americans can't keep up the pace. in construction I have had 20 year old kids draw their pay at lunch (at $15/ hour) because hauling railroad tie was too hard. They spoke fondly of being mall cops. I have never seen a Salvadoran, a Guatemalan or a Honduran quit on a job because it was too hard. hard work and learning a trade are highly valued south of the border, much much less here. |
That would be a bad bet. I've shoveled more shit, hoed more weeds, and bucked more hay than I even care to think about. I've worked in the oilfield as a laborer, and in construction as well. Today though, having been in and out of that world for years, and moving further away from it every day, I don't think I could keep up the pace anymore. Such is the nature of aging and not doing this stuff every day.
Surprised? I hope that you'll actually start to think about what I'm saying here, and stop dismissing me as an entitled American brat child- I am not talking about this problem from an academic perspective. I've actually sat in groups of people bragging about cheating the system, and educating others how to do the same, this isn't an imaginary situation in my head.
ETA: Speaking of sitting in groups discussing scams, cheating, and other crap - that was by FAR the worst thing about being locked up - endless conversations about that shit, and people who are VERY proud of their "accomplishments" .. You should realize, there is an entire sub-culture out there which denigrates people who work as suckers, and values only those who present a burden to society.
Message edited by author 2012-09-25 17:59:19. |
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10/04/2012 10:37:02 AM · #121 |
Hundreds of millions in Medicare fraud, right here in Miami alone
So, what say you, those who think this is a non existent issue... Are you convinced yet? Or do you still think this is basically my imagination?
Message edited by author 2012-10-04 10:37:14. |
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10/04/2012 12:12:55 PM · #122 |
What people seem to fail to realize when they hear the term medicare fraud is that it is businesses doing the fraud, not grandma & grandpa. Most people on medicare don't understand the billing summaries they receive and have no clue that medicare is being over billed for things or charged for things they didn't even receive. I used to go over my grandparents paperwork each month. It's very complicated. And it's not just these "pop up" businesses either. It's major pharmaceutical firms, doctors offices, etc. |
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10/04/2012 12:23:47 PM · #123 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
What people seem to fail to realize when they hear the term medicare fraud is that it is businesses doing the fraud, not grandma & grandpa. Most people on medicare don't understand the billing summaries they receive and have no clue that medicare is being over billed for things or charged for things they didn't even receive. I used to go over my grandparents paperwork each month. It's very complicated. And it's not just these "pop up" businesses either. It's major pharmaceutical firms, doctors offices, etc. |
My point is that the system is being actively being scammed at every turn, by companies and individuals. |
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10/04/2012 01:05:44 PM · #124 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by Kelli:
What people seem to fail to realize when they hear the term medicare fraud is that it is businesses doing the fraud, not grandma & grandpa. Most people on medicare don't understand the billing summaries they receive and have no clue that medicare is being over billed for things or charged for things they didn't even receive. I used to go over my grandparents paperwork each month. It's very complicated. And it's not just these "pop up" businesses either. It's major pharmaceutical firms, doctors offices, etc. |
My point is that the system is being actively being scammed at every turn, by companies and individuals. |
Explain the "individuals" part to me. Unless you are talking about individuals who are operating a business.
eta: Considering the companies listed in this article, I'd say private health insurance fraud is just as big... //www.hhs.gov/news/press/2012pres/07/20120726a.html
Message edited by author 2012-10-04 13:12:10. |
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10/04/2012 01:18:16 PM · #125 |
Originally posted by Cory:
So, what say you, those who think this is a non existent issue... Are you convinced yet? Or do you still think this is basically my imagination? |
I don't think there are many people who don't think this sort of fraud as non-existent. The question is how to respond to it. The sort of prosecutions that the story reports are exactly how such criminals ought to be treated in my opinion. There is waste and fraud in any large enterprise be it Medicare or the U.S.Army, yet when Medicare is defrauded some blame the institution itself. If their reaction to 100s of billions in Army waste was to say we ought to get rid of the Army, then at least it would be a consistent reaction.
Too often we hear calls to end government programs what are designed to help Americans in need when waste and fraud are discovered, rather than prosecuting the thieves and fixing the broken parts. Social welfare programs have become the central focus for many during this political season, yet the waste in governmental support for large corporations and institutions (like the armed forces) where there is many times more taxpayer dollars spent, seem not to to be a concern.
We need to spend the money to fix what is wrong, investigate and prosecute fraud and waste and shore up what is working. Destroying programs because they have problems is the simplistic solution, destruction is always cheaper than repair.
Message edited by author 2012-10-04 13:19:44. |
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