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09/21/2012 10:30:26 AM · #76 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by VitaminB:
I have been stereotyped myself, and it sucks when people that know nothing about me perpetuate a stereotype because they truly don't understand my situation and what I do, and that even when I explain what I do, they still hold onto an ignorant stereotype. |
Now, I've got to admit, you've just honestly gotten me curious as to what the heck you do, are you an assassin of some sort - or are you like a real-life Walter White? ;) |
*snipped for brevity & clarity.
I was just getting ready to write the exact same thing. I'm curious. |
Yeah, Brad! Spill the beans! |
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09/21/2012 03:05:02 PM · #77 |
I don't venture into the rant section much, but I'm not busy at work this week, and got sucked into reading all of this...people have made some interesting points. Now here's my thoughts.
I think the situation is more indicative of the trouble in the Florida housing market than anything else. How Section 8 works is, once someone qualifies (a process that takes five or more years), they get a voucher. With the voucher, they can rent essentially anyplace they want that will rent to them, where the rent is lower than a certain amount. The amount will depend on the size of the family.
I don't know South Florida at all, but it looks like Pembroke Pines and Coral Springs are suburban areas on the edge of the Ft. Lauderdale area that have been hit extremely hard by the housing crash. Looking at Zillow, there are pages and pages (and pages) of foreclosures, usually selling for less than $100/sqft, and a dozen houses that look just like this one renting for about $2000/month. Pembroke Pines might have been a desirable area when these residents originally bought their houses, but I suspect their gated community is filled with empty foreclosures, and the "nice, middle class, neighborhood" was already crumbling before the folks with Section 8 vouchers started moving in.
It sucks to be on the wrong end of both a housing crash and demographic trends (people with money are moving out of the exurbs and into the center city, and poor people moving from the center city to the suburbs), but unless some magical event happens to clear all of the foreclosures, this particular situation is just the tip of the iceberg for these folks.
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09/21/2012 03:58:15 PM · #78 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by VitaminB:
I have been stereotyped myself, and it sucks when people that know nothing about me perpetuate a stereotype because they truly don't understand my situation and what I do, and that even when I explain what I do, they still hold onto an ignorant stereotype. |
Now, I've got to admit, you've just honestly gotten me curious as to what the heck you do, are you an assassin of some sort - or are you like a real-life Walter White? ;) |
*snipped for brevity & clarity.
I was just getting ready to write the exact same thing. I'm curious. |
Yeah, Brad! Spill the beans! |
\
I'm a teacher. |
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09/21/2012 04:08:17 PM · #79 |
| Ambiguous answer... he might be an assassin teacher... like that guy who taught Bruce Wayne. |
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09/21/2012 04:20:20 PM · #80 |
| Actually, the Breaking Bad reference earlier is semi-accurate... I teach high school science. |
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09/21/2012 04:32:25 PM · #81 |
Originally posted by VitaminB:
Actually, the Breaking Bad reference earlier is semi-accurate... I teach high school science. |
Well, other than feeling a little sorry for you having to deal with the hordes of students who really would rather being doing something else and want to be anywhere but there, I think that's a great job. What the heck do people give you trouble about? |
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09/21/2012 04:48:59 PM · #82 |
| Because of the economy, we have been in an ongoing contract dispute for a year. To put things short, the media, our government, and many in the public perpetuated negative stereotypes about teachers. |
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09/21/2012 04:52:37 PM · #83 |
Originally posted by VitaminB:
Because of the economy, we have been in an ongoing contract dispute for a year. To put things short, the media, our government, and many in the public perpetuated negative stereotypes about teachers. |
It's all those hot young blonde teachers in Florida having their way with poor unfortunate adolescent boys that gives teachers a bad name....
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09/21/2012 04:57:12 PM · #84 |
But.... I should add, I don't want this thread to become anything about teaching. Lets keep it to the Section 8 topic.
The fact that this woman's 9 kids will now be living in better housing improves there lot in life, which benefits all of us.
I was watching Jon Stewart the other night, and there was a clip of Mitt Romneys Grandmother (or mother... I dont remember) explaining that they were on welfare at some point, and that they credit the government with 'investing' in its people.
We need to encourage such investments. |
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09/21/2012 04:59:13 PM · #85 |
Originally posted by VitaminB:
Because of the economy, we have been in an ongoing contract dispute for a year. To put things short, the media, our government, and many in the public perpetuated negative stereotypes about teachers. |
The only one I can think of off hand is "those who can't do, teach". Rebuttal?
Honestly, I think that might be more focused on some of the university teachers I've met... :) |
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09/21/2012 05:11:32 PM · #86 |
Originally posted by VitaminB:
I was watching Jon Stewart the other night, and there was a clip of Mitt Romneys Grandmother (or mother... I dont remember) explaining that they were on welfare at some point, and that they credit the government with 'investing' in its people.
We need to encourage such investments. |
LOL, yep, and he totally turned out to be someone who's done great things for society.... Wonderful investment.
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09/21/2012 05:13:10 PM · #87 |
Originally posted by VitaminB:
The fact that this woman's 9 kids will now be living in better housing improves there lot in life, which benefits all of us.
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I disagree with the entire premise of this statement.
Your housing doesn't determine who you are, or your values. The fact remains that a woman who was irresponsible enough to end up with 9 kids and no dad is now instilling her values and lifestyle in 9 children. I'm not saying they can't turn out to be wonderful people, I'm just saying that the odds are stacked against them - and the house they live in won't make a shit of difference in any aspect of their lives that really matters.
I lived in a trailer house most of my life - I don't quite think it made any real difference in who I am, as you'll never catch me wearing cut-off jeans and a white-undershirt.... And I refuse to drink Budweiser ;)
Message edited by author 2012-09-21 17:17:04. |
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09/21/2012 05:20:12 PM · #88 |
Originally posted by VitaminB:
a clip of Mitt Romneys Grandmother (or mother... I dont remember) explaining that they were on welfare at some point, and that they credit the government with 'investing' in its people. |
That was his mother. She expressed how grateful Mitt's dad was to be allowed to immigrate into the country, and for the assistance they got from welfare and other Federal programs. George Romney later went on to become head of GM and Governor of Michigan and then ran against Goldwater and Nixon in '68 for president (despite being born in Mexico) and represented that much missed social liberal Republican. After the election he went on to be the Secretary of Housing and Urban Development and help create section 8 housing vouchers that so offend many Republicans today.
I find it odd that Mitt can so easily dismiss immigrants and people who are granted welfare, when his own parents were so grateful to have the help.
Message edited by author 2012-09-21 17:32:49. |
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09/21/2012 06:22:48 PM · #89 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
I find it odd that Mitt can so easily dismiss immigrants and people who are granted welfare, when his own parents were so grateful to have the help. |
Did George jump the fence? I could be wrong, but he probably came in legally. There's a difference between LEGAL and ILLEGAL immigration, yet many on the left want to conflate the two. I don't know of anyone on the right that is opposed to legal immigration.
...sorry if that's tangential. Just wanted to clarify a point.
Similar thing is true of section 8 housing or other entitlements - I don't know anyone except some Libertarians that want to do away with entitlements completely - most people I know just want to lessen the need for them. |
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09/21/2012 06:36:42 PM · #90 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
I find it odd that Mitt can so easily dismiss immigrants and people who are granted welfare, when his own parents were so grateful to have the help. |
Did George jump the fence? I could be wrong, but he probably came in legally. There's a difference between LEGAL and ILLEGAL immigration, yet many on the left want to conflate the two. I don't know of anyone on the right that is opposed to legal immigration.
...sorry if that's tangential. Just wanted to clarify a point.
Similar thing is true of section 8 housing or other entitlements - I don't know anyone except some Libertarians that want to do away with entitlements completely - most people I know just want to lessen the need for them. |
//www.lectlaw.com/files/imm04.htm |
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09/21/2012 07:22:09 PM · #91 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
I find it odd that Mitt can so easily dismiss immigrants and people who are granted welfare, when his own parents were so grateful to have the help. |
Did George jump the fence? I could be wrong, but he probably came in legally. There's a difference between LEGAL and ILLEGAL immigration, yet many on the left want to conflate the two. I don't know of anyone on the right that is opposed to legal immigration.
...sorry if that's tangential. Just wanted to clarify a point.
Similar thing is true of section 8 housing or other entitlements - I don't know anyone except some Libertarians that want to do away with entitlements completely - most people I know just want to lessen the need for them. |
//www.lectlaw.com/files/imm04.htm |
No date on that article, but by the names it references, it looks to be about 20+ years old or more (Bennett, Buchanan, Cheney, Dole, Quayle). In any case - it talks about limiting immigration levels, not abolishing immigration. Anyways nuff about immigration in this thread though - like I admitted, it's tangential to this topic. |
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09/21/2012 07:51:18 PM · #92 |
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09/21/2012 07:57:34 PM · #93 |
Originally posted by Cory:
I disagree with the entire premise of this statement.
Your housing doesn't determine who you are, or your values. The fact remains that a woman who was irresponsible enough to end up with 9 kids and no dad is now instilling her values and lifestyle in 9 children. I'm not saying they can't turn out to be wonderful people, I'm just saying that the odds are stacked against them - and the house they live in won't make a shit of difference in any aspect of their lives that really matters.
I lived in a trailer house most of my life - I don't quite think it made any real difference in who I am, as you'll never catch me wearing cut-off jeans and a white-undershirt.... And I refuse to drink Budweiser ;) |
So, it would seem, you've just argued against the application of your own stereotype. |
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09/21/2012 08:03:01 PM · #94 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
I find it odd that Mitt can so easily dismiss immigrants and people who are granted welfare, when his own parents were so grateful to have the help. |
Did George jump the fence? I could be wrong, but he probably came in legally. There's a difference between LEGAL and ILLEGAL immigration, yet many on the left want to conflate the two. I don't know of anyone on the right that is opposed to legal immigration.
...sorry if that's tangential. Just wanted to clarify a point.
Similar thing is true of section 8 housing or other entitlements - I don't know anyone except some Libertarians that want to do away with entitlements completely - most people I know just want to lessen the need for them. |
//www.lectlaw.com/files/imm04.htm |
No date on that article, but by the names it references, it looks to be about 20+ years old or more (Bennett, Buchanan, Cheney, Dole, Quayle). In any case - it talks about limiting immigration levels, not abolishing immigration. Anyways nuff about immigration in this thread though - like I admitted, it's tangential to this topic. |
Sorry, you're right. It was dated 1994. |
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09/21/2012 08:14:35 PM · #95 |
Yep, that kinda sums it up doesn't it? |
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09/21/2012 08:16:20 PM · #96 |
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
Originally posted by Cory:
I disagree with the entire premise of this statement.
Your housing doesn't determine who you are, or your values. The fact remains that a woman who was irresponsible enough to end up with 9 kids and no dad is now instilling her values and lifestyle in 9 children. I'm not saying they can't turn out to be wonderful people, I'm just saying that the odds are stacked against them - and the house they live in won't make a shit of difference in any aspect of their lives that really matters.
I lived in a trailer house most of my life - I don't quite think it made any real difference in who I am, as you'll never catch me wearing cut-off jeans and a white-undershirt.... And I refuse to drink Budweiser ;) |
So, it would seem, you've just argued against the application of your own stereotype. |
Heh.. Just because I don't fit the stereotype, doesn't mean I can't list off 20 of my acquaintances that do. |
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09/21/2012 11:22:36 PM · #97 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Yep, that kinda sums it up doesn't it? |
I certainly sums up a type of advocacy "research". I tried to chase down the source material, and it is certainly more difficult to nail down than the conclusions they come to. The organization that did this research is Justice Watch
Between 1997 and 2002 Judicial Watch received $7,069,500 (unadjusted for inflation) in 19 grants from a handful of foundations. The bulk of this funding came from just three foundations ΓΆ€“ the Sarah Scaife Foundation, The Carthage Foundation, both managed by Richard Mellon Scaife, and the John M. Olin Foundation, Inc., which folded in 2005. As of 2010, Scaife remains the group's main contributor.
Richard Mellon Scaife (born July 3, 1932) is an American billionaire. Scaife owns and publishes the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review. With $1.2 billion, Scaife, a principal heir to the Mellon banking, oil, and aluminum fortune, is No. 283 on the 2005 Forbes 400.
Scaife is also known for his financial support of conservative public policy organizations over the past four decades. He has provided support for conservative and libertarian causes in the U.S., mostly through the private, nonprofit foundations he controls: the Sarah Scaife Foundation, Carthage Foundation, and Allegheny Foundation, and until 2001, the Scaife Family Foundation, now controlled by his daughter Jennie and son David. Scaife also helped fund the Arkansas Project, which ultimately led to the impeachment proceedings of President Bill Clinton.
So basically the organisation that cherry picked these numbers is about as scientific as an editorial. Try finding some research for a peer reviewed journal that comes to similar conclusions. you won't find it, because real statisticians would not twist the facts like this.
According to a 1998 article in The National Academies Press, "many [previous studies] represented not science but advocacy from both sides of the immigration debate...often offered an incomplete accounting of either the full list of taxpayer costs and benefits by ignoring some programs and taxes while including others," and that "the conceptual foundation of this research was rarely explicitly stated, offering opportunities to tilt the research toward the desired result." One survey conducted in the 1980s found that 76 percent of economists felt recent illegal immigration had a positive effect on the economy.
Message edited by author 2012-09-21 23:25:13. |
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09/24/2012 01:06:52 PM · #98 |
thank you Brennan. I was just about on the same trail when I decided to finish my porridge instead.
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09/25/2012 10:58:36 AM · #99 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Originally posted by Cory:
Yep, that kinda sums it up doesn't it? |
I certainly sums up a type of advocacy "research". I tried to chase down the source material, and it is certainly more difficult to nail down than the conclusions they come to. The organization that did this research is Justice Watch
Between 1997 and 2002 Judicial Watch received $7,069,500 (unadjusted for inflation) in 19 grants from a handful of foundations. The bulk of this funding came from just three foundations ΓΆ€“ the Sarah Scaife Foundation, The Carthage Foundation, both managed by Richard Mellon Scaife, and the John M. Olin Foundation, Inc., which folded in 2005. As of 2010, Scaife remains the group's main contributor.
Richard Mellon Scaife (born July 3, 1932) is an American billionaire. Scaife owns and publishes the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review. With $1.2 billion, Scaife, a principal heir to the Mellon banking, oil, and aluminum fortune, is No. 283 on the 2005 Forbes 400.
Scaife is also known for his financial support of conservative public policy organizations over the past four decades. He has provided support for conservative and libertarian causes in the U.S., mostly through the private, nonprofit foundations he controls: the Sarah Scaife Foundation, Carthage Foundation, and Allegheny Foundation, and until 2001, the Scaife Family Foundation, now controlled by his daughter Jennie and son David. Scaife also helped fund the Arkansas Project, which ultimately led to the impeachment proceedings of President Bill Clinton.
So basically the organisation that cherry picked these numbers is about as scientific as an editorial. Try finding some research for a peer reviewed journal that comes to similar conclusions. you won't find it, because real statisticians would not twist the facts like this.
According to a 1998 article in The National Academies Press, "many [previous studies] represented not science but advocacy from both sides of the immigration debate...often offered an incomplete accounting of either the full list of taxpayer costs and benefits by ignoring some programs and taxes while including others," and that "the conceptual foundation of this research was rarely explicitly stated, offering opportunities to tilt the research toward the desired result." One survey conducted in the 1980s found that 76 percent of economists felt recent illegal immigration had a positive effect on the economy. |
In reading this I surmise that you dismiss the "editorial" conclusions based on the source of finance being a conservative billionare. Additionally, because of its implied bias. Question - are the points valid or not? Do illegals drain the coffers of program monies intended for use with american citizens? Yes or no? Is the cost of support for these familes a burden on american taxpayers? Do you support providing financial aid to those who are illegally in this country?
Regardless if the piece is biased or not, financed by a conservative or not, is the policy of financially aiding illegals (housing, food, medical care, transportation, education, etc) a policy you support? That is the discussion. |
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09/25/2012 01:16:19 PM · #100 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Regardless if the piece is biased or not, financed by a conservative or not, is the policy of financially aiding illegals (housing, food, medical care, transportation, education, etc) a policy you support? That is the discussion. |
No, the "discussion" should be whether the "illegal" immigrants are a positive or negative force on the economy. Whether or not we SUPPORT government aid to these people would be influenced by the result of that discussion. And a significant majority of professional economists, as far as I know, believe these people are a net plus for the economy. This is certainly the case in California, where a lot of what we take for granted would come to a screeching halt without immigrant (read "Mexican") labor.
Remember; legality" is an arbitrary concept, but the labor itself is tangible and measurable. |
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