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09/13/2012 03:03:02 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Nullix:
Except, no were in the bible does it say, "Ye shall go and burn people alive." |
Leviticus 21:9- âIf a priestâs daughter defiles herself by becoming a prostitute, she disgraces her father; she must be burned in the fire."
Originally posted by Nullix:
Only in the Quran do you have statements to kill the non-believers. |
Deuteronomy 13:6â "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, âLet us go and worship other godsâ (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God" |
These are laws of the old covenant. Also, these laws were for their own people.
On the other hand the Quran isn't directed at it's own people, but non-believers.
Of course, there are bad Christians in this world, but if we Christians start to do these things, we're doing it against our teachings. With Islam, it's in accordance with their teachings.
Christians killing infidels != Christian teachings
Islam killing infidels == Islam teachings |
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09/13/2012 03:47:57 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Nullix:
Except, no were in the bible does it say, "Ye shall go and burn people alive." |
Leviticus 21:9- âIf a priestâs daughter defiles herself by becoming a prostitute, she disgraces her father; she must be burned in the fire."
Originally posted by Nullix:
Only in the Quran do you have statements to kill the non-believers. |
Deuteronomy 13:6â "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, âLet us go and worship other godsâ (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God" |
I'm confused Shannon. From your facebook post are you The Troublemaker, The Bait-taker, The Chime-in, The Lazy Activist, or The Embarassment? :D
Message edited by author 2012-09-13 15:48:10. |
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09/13/2012 03:50:28 PM · #53 |
| Even in Rant you have to play by the Forum Rules, please ... |
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09/13/2012 04:19:26 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
These are laws of the old covenant. Also, these laws were for their own people.
On the other hand the Quran isn't directed at it's own people, but non-believers.
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The Quran is directed at non-believers? You'll have to explain that one. |
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09/13/2012 04:22:56 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Nullix:
Except, no were in the bible does it say, "Ye shall go and burn people alive." |
Leviticus 21:9- âIf a priestâs daughter defiles herself by becoming a prostitute, she disgraces her father; she must be burned in the fire."
Originally posted by Nullix:
Only in the Quran do you have statements to kill the non-believers. |
Deuteronomy 13:6â "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, âLet us go and worship other godsâ (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God" |
In defense of no particular religion, we can all quote the good and the bad from nearly any religious teaching. Christianity has overall seemed to adopt the good (based on the larger social trends and acceptances) in the Bible, just as Muslims no doubt will/should if they want to grow as a people.
While I say that, in reading the different texts, there are very fundamental differences between them that become immediately evident. Again, I think it matters more who your particular interpreter/teacher/minister/preacher is than what text you read from. Just as Christianity has been used against infidels in the past, Islam can (and is) if interpreted by the wrong/right person. The change for good cannot and will not happen overnight though, as their particular culture is still steeped in repression, war, and often misguided hatred. |
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09/13/2012 04:32:54 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
These are laws of the old covenant. Also, these laws were for their own people.
On the other hand the Quran isn't directed at it's own people, but non-believers.
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by the way, people often misuse the term "begging the question."
If you want to see a perfect example of what "begging the question" really means, look at the quote above. It's a doozie. |
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09/13/2012 04:41:29 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Even in Rant you have to play by the Forum Rules, please ... |
Sorry, Paul. I'm not really calling him names. He posted a funny piece about online arguments and I was just tweaking him for it. It was in honest fun. Maybe I can find it online somewhere.
A template for every awful political discussion you've ever witnessed on Facebook |
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09/13/2012 04:51:48 PM · #58 |
My rather limited understanding of Islam comes from reading the Koran and from Karen Armstrong's excellent book Islam: a short history. Mohammed was trying to reach nonbelivers and originally told his followers not to convert "people of the book" that is Jews and Christians , fellow followers of Abraham. He saw his teachings as fellow travelers on the same path. It was only later in the Callifate. that followers of the bible were seen as unbelivers.
So in a sense, Mohammed's work was meant for nonbelivers, that is people outside the family of Abraham. |
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09/13/2012 04:54:39 PM · #59 |
not to interrupt the skirmish here, but every religion can be hijacked by its fanatical nuts. Islam isn't a completely violent religion and neither is Christianity, but when you need a reason to rally the troops to your cause, each works quite well.
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09/13/2012 05:10:57 PM · #60 |
Incense perfumes a room but it stinks if you think it's anything holy.
I think it was Nietzsche that said: "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies"
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09/13/2012 05:41:40 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
... but it is a response to something, perceived or real. |
It could be that to those who feel victimized, abused and exploited that perception is reality,
Ray |
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09/13/2012 05:55:50 PM · #62 |
| The protestors are reacting to a film that doesn't represent mainstream America just like some people in America react to acts of terrorism that don't represent mainstream Islam. Both groups consist of gullible individuals who have been intentionally misled by radicals, and the result costs more lives and damage than the original offense. This is not a fault of free speech or free action, but of ignorance left unchecked. The protestors don't understand that the film was not an official work of America, but of a few crazy people that would have zero exposure if not for the protestors themselves, while some folks back here don't understand that Obama didn't apologize for anything and the attacks were not sponsored by those countries either. |
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09/13/2012 06:04:24 PM · #63 |
| I think Shannon actually makes sense on his last post! |
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09/13/2012 06:05:08 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I find your opinion ugly Cory. To think you are putting my 96 year old grandmother into the same group as the people who stormed the consulate is repugnant. If you replaced "organized religion" with any other sort of sect, creed, belief, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc you would be yelled down for being a bigot.
Try to use a little more tact and common sense. Again, there is a LONG list of groups that have members who have done terrible things. You belong to many of those groups yourself (white, American, *insert your political affiliation*, athiest, etc). |
Boy, that's on the line there Doc.. ;) Don't worry, I'm secretly pleased to have cut so deeply here.
To be perfectly clear, I find many things repugnant that you find attractive, but I really do think my views are more logically defensible.
Besides, I've never had a black man try to threaten me with fire for not trying to be black, nor has a gay man ever told me that I'm wrong for not being gay.... No, those are things that groups I tend to dislike do, like political parties and religious organizations. And for the record, I'm so disgusted with politics that I do not have a party, nor do I ever feel there is anyone on any ticket that deserves my vote of confidence.
So, as for being a bigot, I guess I'll gladly cop to that charge, as by definition I am one when it comes to certain groups.
However, just to be doubly clear here, I am not bigoted against the following real or perceived characteristics: sexual orientation, age, disability, dissension from popular opinions, economic status, ethnicity, gender identity, language, nationality, spiritual belief, race, region, sex, species, or sexual orientation.
I am however bigoted against certain categories of the following real or perceived characteristics:
Personal habits, political alignment, and religious belief
Funny enough, I don't know that I'm at all ashamed to admit this. |
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09/13/2012 06:08:27 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
not to interrupt the skirmish here, but every religion can be hijacked by its fanatical nuts. Islam isn't a completely violent religion and neither is Christianity, but when you need a reason to rally the troops to your cause, each works quite well. |
And therein lies the true danger. |
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09/13/2012 07:19:40 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I think Shannon actually makes sense on his last post! |
Just want to make sure this line was archived ... ;-) |
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09/13/2012 07:32:35 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I think Shannon actually makes sense on his last post! |
Good grief... I had to get someone else to read this for me, I was certain I had misread it!!!
Is this possible... quick someone do one of them screen saver thingies... we need to save this.
:O)
Ray |
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09/13/2012 07:40:31 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by Cory:
I am however bigoted against certain categories of the following real or perceived characteristics:
Personal habits, political alignment, and religious belief |
Well, as long as you are aware. It's easy to use a bit of forensic judo and turn your logical argument on its head.
Facts I know to be true:
1) I witnessed a Christian last month sell some of their belongings and give the money to the homeless shelter.
2) I know a snippet in the Bible says "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor" (Matthew 19:21)
From these two facts I am going to use your own logical processes demonstrated above and come to the following conclusions:
1) People who belong to an organized religion are benevolent, caring, and giving.
2) All benevolent, caring, and giving actions are likely to derive from organized religion.
3) If someone demonstrates a benevolent, caring, or giving action we can make a link to anything involving organized religion in their life. If we can't find that link we can fall back on their society and look for a link to organized religion there.
I actually feel a lot better now! All hail organized religion! ;) |
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09/13/2012 07:40:52 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I think Shannon actually makes sense on his last post! |
Just want to make sure this line was archived ... ;-) |
Dammit! |
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09/13/2012 07:43:53 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Cory:
I am however bigoted against certain categories of the following real or perceived characteristics:
Personal habits, political alignment, and religious belief |
Well, as long as you are aware. It's easy to use a bit of forensic judo and turn your logical argument on its head.
Facts I know to be true:
1) I witnessed a Christian last month sell some of their belongings and give the money to the homeless shelter.
2) I know a snippet in the Bible says "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor" (Matthew 19:21)
From these two facts I am going to use your own logical processes demonstrated above and come to the following conclusions:
1) People who belong to an organized religion are benevolent, caring, and giving.
2) All benevolent, caring, and giving actions are likely to derive from organized religion.
3) If someone demonstrates a benevolent, caring, or giving action we can make a link to anything involving organized religion in their life. If we can't find that link we can fall back on their society and look for a link to organized religion there.
I actually feel a lot better now! All hail organized religion! ;) |
You seem to continue to not get it.. So I'll just post a link so it's easier to go in circles here.
I'd also bet that the belongings were not desired, loved, and valued belongings, now I might be impressed if they sold their cars and jewelry - after all, I don't think the snippet in the bible was talking about table scraps.
Message edited by author 2012-09-13 19:47:23. |
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09/13/2012 08:04:43 PM · #71 |
| The funny thing is, in the real world, you would be able to talk about this more effectively, rather than a tedious argument. you both make good points, but since no one can be convinced, why do this primitive stubborn dance again and again? |
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09/13/2012 08:05:07 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
The protestors are reacting to a film that doesn't represent mainstream America just like some people in America react to acts of terrorism that don't represent mainstream Islam. Both groups consist of gullible individuals who have been intentionally misled by radicals, and the result costs more lives and damage than the original offense. This is not a fault of free speech or free action, but of ignorance left unchecked. The protestors don't understand that the film was not an official work of America, but of a few crazy people that would have zero exposure if not for the protestors themselves, while some folks back here don't understand that Obama didn't apologize for anything and the attacks were not sponsored by those countries either. |
yet how often do the acts of a few crazy people change the course of history? |
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09/13/2012 08:09:20 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by scalvert:
The protestors are reacting to a film that doesn't represent mainstream America just like some people in America react to acts of terrorism that don't represent mainstream Islam. Both groups consist of gullible individuals who have been intentionally misled by radicals, and the result costs more lives and damage than the original offense. This is not a fault of free speech or free action, but of ignorance left unchecked. The protestors don't understand that the film was not an official work of America, but of a few crazy people that would have zero exposure if not for the protestors themselves, while some folks back here don't understand that Obama didn't apologize for anything and the attacks were not sponsored by those countries either. |
yet how often do the acts of a few crazy people change the course of history? |
Fairly often, but only if we let them. |
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09/13/2012 08:13:03 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by Cory:
You seem to continue to not get it.. So I'll just post a link so it's easier to go in circles here.
I'd also bet that the belongings were not desired, loved, and valued belongings, now I might be impressed if they sold their cars and jewelry - after all, I don't think the snippet in the bible was talking about table scraps. |
LOL. You do understand that I was using fallacious logic to take an isolated incident and generalize it to a huge group of people? I was using the snippet from the Bible to try to cement that as the raison d'etre of the religion. It's a terrible argument, but it mirrored your own quite nicely.
Still, you'd be amazed at what I've seen at the Eugene Mission. Would you believe a woman donating $202,000 to us? That's the biggest since I've been on the board, but we get one or two large donations a month. Our budget of $1.4 million is entirely funded by donations. Entirely.
That's neither here nor there. |
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09/13/2012 08:14:44 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by scalvert:
The protestors are reacting to a film that doesn't represent mainstream America just like some people in America react to acts of terrorism that don't represent mainstream Islam. Both groups consist of gullible individuals who have been intentionally misled by radicals, and the result costs more lives and damage than the original offense. This is not a fault of free speech or free action, but of ignorance left unchecked. The protestors don't understand that the film was not an official work of America, but of a few crazy people that would have zero exposure if not for the protestors themselves, while some folks back here don't understand that Obama didn't apologize for anything and the attacks were not sponsored by those countries either. |
yet how often do the acts of a few crazy people change the course of history? |
Fairly often, but only if we let them. |
hence my original post (see what i did there? :) ) |
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