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09/12/2012 08:54:43 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
...Then on September 11th there is a spontaneous reaction to this film, which results in attacks on 2 american embassies? Talk about an obvious set-up job. The story rings about as true as the movie, |
Having spent years working in the realm of security, happenstance does not fall at the forefront of the chain of occurences I envisage transpired here.
Surveillance, Intelligence, Counter-intelligence, Planning, Dry runs are more something I believe occured in this instance.
Events such as this simply do not occur on a whim.
A very tragic turn of events...my thoughts and condolences to all affected.
Ray
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09/13/2012 09:14:04 AM · #27 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by mike_311:
Im just saying if you know a group violently reacts to a situation, even if they are looking for a reason to react, why give them any reason? |
.... I just find myself hoping that it will help to open the eyes of the majority of the normal people to what organized religion really represents. This isn't just a Muslim phenomenon, it's simply that they're the ones who are currently busy doing what most organized religions are historically responsible for doing at some point themselves. Religion is one of the most effective sources of power and wealth that has ever been invented, and unfortunate side effects like fanaticism and murder are just the price of doing business it seems.
As for my opinion? Well, let's just say that I'm all for inciting the shit out of everyone who is so easily provoked - perhaps we as a species will decide someday that we've had enough of this ridiculous behavior and change the way we think and act. Then again, I'm probably being overly optimistic. |
+1
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09/13/2012 10:33:19 AM · #28 |
Originally posted by Cory:
I just find myself hoping that it will help to open the eyes of the majority of the normal people to what organized religion really represents. This isn't just a Muslim phenomenon, it's simply that they're the ones who are currently busy doing what most organized religions are historically responsible for doing at some point themselves. |
This is a Muslim phenomenon. The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.
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09/13/2012 10:46:27 AM · #29 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Originally posted by Cory:
I just find myself hoping that it will help to open the eyes of the majority of the normal people to what organized religion really represents. This isn't just a Muslim phenomenon, it's simply that they're the ones who are currently busy doing what most organized religions are historically responsible for doing at some point themselves. |
This is a Muslim phenomenon. The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter. |
You can make the Bible look pretty bad too if you pick and choose like that. The problem is that some Muslims are still in a Medieval phase of the religion, where infidels are killed. Christianity has had that phase as well. Some Christians are still in that phase, but it is much more prevalent among Muslims. It has nothing to do with the inherent worth of Islam vs. any other religion. It has more to do with history, global politics and oil. |
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09/13/2012 10:46:59 AM · #30 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
This is a Muslim phenomenon. The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. |
"The Bible contains far more verses praising or urging bloodshed than does the Koran, and biblical violence is often far more extreme, and marked by more indiscriminate savagery." Pot, meet kettle. |
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09/13/2012 10:57:24 AM · #31 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Nullix:
This is a Muslim phenomenon. The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. |
"The Bible contains far more verses praising or urging bloodshed than does the Koran, and biblical violence is often far more extreme, and marked by more indiscriminate savagery." Pot, meet kettle. |
Interesting article. Not to derail the thread, but I wasn't clear on this part:
"But whichever view we take, the Koran as it stands claims to speak in God's voice. That is one of the great differences between the Bible and the Koran. Even for dedicated fundamentalists, inspired Bible passages come through the pen of a venerated historical individual, whether it's the Prophet Isaiah or the Apostle Paul, and that leaves open some chance of blaming embarrassing views on that person's own prejudices. The Koran gives no such option: For believers, every word in the text - however horrendous a passage may sound to modern ears - came directly from God."
I always thought the bible, the old testament anyway, was 'the word of god' - This paragraph contradicts that. |
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09/13/2012 10:59:21 AM · #32 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by Nullix:
Originally posted by Cory:
I just find myself hoping that it will help to open the eyes of the majority of the normal people to what organized religion really represents. This isn't just a Muslim phenomenon, it's simply that they're the ones who are currently busy doing what most organized religions are historically responsible for doing at some point themselves. |
This is a Muslim phenomenon. The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter. |
You can make the Bible look pretty bad too if you pick and choose like that. The problem is that some Muslims are still in a Medieval phase of the religion, where infidels are killed. Christianity has had that phase as well. Some Christians are still in that phase, but it is much more prevalent among Muslims. It has nothing to do with the inherent worth of Islam vs. any other religion. It has more to do with history, global politics and oil. |
Are you sure its not simply that religion itself is Medieval? |
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09/13/2012 11:04:46 AM · #33 |
We have to be practical. No matter the history of Christianity or Islam, it is the Islamic threat that (at least we American's) are concerned with. I mean, we are motivated by concrete, if not rational political motives rather than religious fervor, for the most part. It takes a little bit more than someone in the middle east yelling "Jesus Christ" to provoke a military response from us, (but at times, admittedly, not much more.)
What I see as the problem is the people in the USA who refuse to look at the cause of things. Sure, the Islamic response to disrespect, occupation of territories and general years of exploitation of people and resources is piss poor, and usually involves the suicide bombing of something in the name of religion, but it is a response to something, perceived or real. |
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09/13/2012 11:07:39 AM · #34 |
Originally posted by JH:
I always thought the bible, the old testament anyway, was 'the word of god' - This paragraph contradicts that. |
Sigh.. you may not realize it, but if you were born in another country, thinking as you appear to above, you would very likely be one of those with an AK and a vest.
Do you really, even for a moment, actually think this could be true? To my eyes it seems such a simple and boldfaced lie that its astonishing that this question is even being asked... Of course a man wrote it, in his language and his words. For me the only question is "what was this mans reason for doing so?". |
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09/13/2012 11:19:02 AM · #35 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by JH:
I always thought the bible, the old testament anyway, was 'the word of god' - This paragraph contradicts that. |
Sigh.. you may not realize it, but if you were born in another country, thinking as you appear to above, you would very likely be one of those with an AK and a vest.
Do you really, even for a moment, actually think this could be true? To my eyes it seems such a simple and boldfaced lie that its astonishing that this question is even being asked... Of course a man wrote it, in his language and his words. For me the only question is "what was this mans reason for doing so?". |
Sorry, I should clarify; I hold absolutely no beliefs in any holy book.
I realise these texts were invented, imagined, and manipulated by men to further some agenda (or I'm sure in some cases written by mentally ill people who were hearing voices in their heads)
What I meant to say was "I thought Christians viewed the bible as the 'word of god'" |
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09/13/2012 11:56:46 AM · #36 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Are you sure its not simply that religion itself is Medieval? |
yes, since it predates the Medieval period by thousands of years.
Religions usually go through phases: They initialize, they consolidate power, they go through a fundamentalist phase (what I meant by medieval in the case of Christianity), then they get so powerful people start taking them for granted (a cynical phase), finally they turn into mythology and get taught in public schools. |
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09/13/2012 11:59:33 AM · #37 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by Cory:
Are you sure its not simply that religion itself is Medieval? |
yes, since it predates the Medieval period by thousands of years.
Religions usually go through phases: They initialize, they consolidate power, they go through a fundamentalist phase (what I meant by medieval in the case of Christianity), then they get so powerful people start taking them for granted (a cynical phase), finally they turn into mythology and get taught in public schools. |
So what you're saying here is that Islam may be somewhat developmentally disabled? ;)
Message edited by author 2012-09-13 12:00:00. |
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09/13/2012 12:03:44 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by Cory:
Are you sure its not simply that religion itself is Medieval? |
yes, since it predates the Medieval period by thousands of years.
Religions usually go through phases: They initialize, they consolidate power, they go through a fundamentalist phase (what I meant by medieval in the case of Christianity), then they get so powerful people start taking them for granted (a cynical phase), finally they turn into mythology and get taught in public schools. |
So what you're saying here is that Islam may be somewhat developmentally disabled? ;) |
In a sense, yes. Those are the historical factors I was talking about. But if you look at the timeline, Islam is 600 years younger than Christianity, and Christianity was burning people alive 600 years ago. |
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09/13/2012 12:25:02 PM · #39 |
Whether it be for religious beliefs or for anything else, when men leave no room for doubt, pain and suffering are never far away. These dogmatic books were wrote because people couldn't and didn't want to grasp the letting go of mind and self that would have been necessary to follow the true teachings of the sages they are based upon, spiritual egoism, the worst of them all. The very opposite of what is needed to live in peace and harmony.
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09/13/2012 12:26:28 PM · #40 |
I knew it was only a matter of time before someone took the action of a small group of radicals and expanded it to "religion" thus setting up the false principle that you cannot be against such activity and for organized religion at the same time. (I'm surprised it actually took over a day!)
Talk about painting with a broad brush! We might as well start denouncing the Democrats, the Republicans, Americans, Europeans, Canadians, whites, blacks, and humans. Each has been shown to have members that will do similarly ugly things.
Let's stop this silliness. NOBODY in this conversation supports killing people because you have been offended. I enjoyed the quote on NPR this morning from a Yemeni who said, "there are civilized ways to demonstrate your anger". |
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09/13/2012 12:44:36 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Let's stop this silliness. NOBODY in this conversation supports killing people because you have been offended. I enjoyed the quote on NPR this morning from a Yemeni who said, "there are civilized ways to demonstrate your anger". |
The biggest problem as I see it is the seeming ineffectiveness of the "moderate" Islamic community in rooting out (actively denouncing, refusing to support) those cancerous elements in their midst. Every potential terrorist has a mother, brother, cousin or friend somewhere who probably knows enough to turn them in, or at least not sell them groceries ... |
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09/13/2012 01:00:06 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Let's stop this silliness. NOBODY in this conversation supports killing people because you have been offended. I enjoyed the quote on NPR this morning from a Yemeni who said, "there are civilized ways to demonstrate your anger". |
The biggest problem as I see it is the seeming ineffectiveness of the "moderate" Islamic community in rooting out (actively denouncing, refusing to support) those cancerous elements in their midst. Every potential terrorist has a mother, brother, cousin or friend somewhere who probably knows enough to turn them in, or at least not sell them groceries ... |
I haven't spent hours thinking about this, but the Islamic world is going through massive change. They probably have their own lives to worry about. Think about our civil war. I'm sure atrocities and evil were done apart from the official war. One would probably cut the average citizen some slack for not "rooting out" such activity. They were more concerned with keeping their own life together. Another example would be our civil rights movement. It seems harsh to castigate your average black fighting for their rights because they failed to control the Black Panthers or other even more radicalized groups.
Still, I agree that Islam, like any group (religious or otherwise), is going to have to deal with their radicalized factions.
Message edited by author 2012-09-13 13:00:50. |
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09/13/2012 01:08:46 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
One would probably cut the average citizen some slack for not "rooting out" such activity. They were more concerned with keeping their own life together. Another example would be our civil rights movement. It seems harsh to castigate your average black fighting for their rights because they failed to control the Black Panthers or other even more radicalized groups.
Still, I agree that Islam, like any group (religious or otherwise), is going to have to deal with their radicalized factions. |
I agree, it's obviously dangerous to call-out evil-doers (c.f. the result of the misguided "drug war" in Mexico), but ultimately that's what it takes to actually eliminate the threat (well, come close).
FWIW, as it turns out, the FBI seems to have been far more "out of control" than the Black Panthers were ... |
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09/13/2012 01:25:22 PM · #44 |
| Is this where we spend 50 posts arguing about the Black Panthers? ;) |
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09/13/2012 01:59:18 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
The biggest problem as I see it is the seeming ineffectiveness of the "moderate" Islamic community in rooting out (actively denouncing, refusing to support) those cancerous elements in their midst. Every potential terrorist has a mother, brother, cousin or friend somewhere who probably knows enough to turn them in, or at least not sell them groceries ... |
I understand your point, but if I recall history, it took a while for the popularity of the KKK to decline too. Seems you could tie some similarities between them and the radical Islamist sects. However, to my knowledge, the KKK never attacked other countries. But you have a point, the KKK lost popularity because the common man turned against them.
Message edited by author 2012-09-13 14:02:10. |
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09/13/2012 02:03:01 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Is this where we spend 50 posts arguing about the Black Panthers? ;) |
No, hopefully this is where we realize that organizations like the Black Panthers share a great deal of similarity with organized religions.
Message edited by author 2012-09-13 14:04:01. |
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09/13/2012 02:09:25 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
In a sense, yes. Those are the historical factors I was talking about. But if you look at the timeline, Islam is 600 years younger than Christianity, and Christianity was burning people alive 600 years ago. |
Right. Except, no were in the bible does it say, "Ye shall go and burn people alive." Only in the Quran do you have statements to kill the non-believers.
Christians who burn people alive are going against their religion. |
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09/13/2012 02:18:52 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Except, no were in the bible does it say, "Ye shall go and burn people alive." |
Leviticus 21:9- âIf a priestâs daughter defiles herself by becoming a prostitute, she disgraces her father; she must be burned in the fire."
Originally posted by Nullix:
Only in the Quran do you have statements to kill the non-believers. |
Deuteronomy 13:6â "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, âLet us go and worship other godsâ (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God"
Message edited by author 2012-09-13 14:20:39. |
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09/13/2012 02:20:36 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Originally posted by posthumous:
In a sense, yes. Those are the historical factors I was talking about. But if you look at the timeline, Islam is 600 years younger than Christianity, and Christianity was burning people alive 600 years ago. |
Right. Except, no were in the bible does it say, "Ye shall go and burn people alive." Only in the Quran do you have statements to kill the non-believers.
Christians who burn people alive are going against their religion. |
Unless of course, you happen to pick up sticks on the Sabbath... Or any one of a couple dozen other reasons.
You might see how someone like me would find your ignorance so worrisome... It feels like I'm watching someone play with a loaded gun, waving it around and pointing it me, all while assuring me that this particular type of gun is perfectly harmless.
I understand that you're invested in your religion, but I find the statement "Please Jesus, protect me from your followers" to be about the most poignant statement of the dangerous combination of willful ignorance and faith strong enough to justify any action. |
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09/13/2012 02:58:34 PM · #50 |
I find your opinion ugly Cory. To think you are putting my 96 year old grandmother into the same group as the people who stormed the consulate is repugnant. If you replaced "organized religion" with any other sort of sect, creed, belief, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc you would be yelled down for being a bigot.
Try to use a little more tact and common sense. Again, there is a LONG list of groups that have members who have done terrible things. You belong to many of those groups yourself (white, American, *insert your political affiliation*, athiest, etc). |
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