Guns don't kill people - DPChallenge Forums

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 17-35mm f/2.8D IF-ED

08/17/2012 01:55:38 PM · #701

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Flash:
It is the most effective at transferring energy from the projectile to the torso without exiting and endangering innocents.

It is also most effective at causing widespread internal damage leading to a fatal outcome.

Never forget the headbutt.

Flash

Nikon D700

08/17/2012 02:49:09 PM · #702

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Oh, I *quite* understand the issue at hand. You have yet to substantiate your ridiculous claims of how a fire extinguisher's use and a firearm's use remotely coincide.

I never claimed to know anything more than what *you* verified by stating, and I quote: A round is discharged into center mass of the assailant. The energy from that round is transferred into the torso thus incapcitating the asssailiant and stopping the assault. .

What I don't know, and you don't answer, which is *why* I keep asking, is how you can correlate the use of deadly force on another human being to using a fire extinguisher. Or how shooting someone becomes "tool usage".

If after the numerous posts explaining the similarities, you still don't get it, then perhaps you'll have to stop trying. You are adamant bout the tool used while I am comparing the action of using the tool. Can't help you any more than that.

Flash

Nikon D700

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 17-35mm f/2.8D IF-ED

08/17/2012 02:54:56 PM · #703

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I don't know if you've ever shot a human being or not, under any circumstances, but that is also a consideration that needs to be made. Part of why I don't have a firearm is I really don't ever want to have to do that, regardless of the circumstances, and because of the way I live my life, my chances of being exposed to random, or intentional violence, is fairly low. I've had a gun pointed at me in a less than desirable situation, got robbed and felt graced to just have lost money, but I don't even know if I would have preferred to have been armed even at that time.

I'm also of an age that many of my friends went off to war, and I can truthfully say that those of them that took human life, even that justified by being "The Enemy" came back forever changed. And not necessarily for the better. These were young men of sharp eyes, and fast reflexes that were taught by their country, to kill for their country. But first and foremost, they were friends, relatives, neighbors......and they get to live with what they did for the rest of their lives. So I guess part of what bothers me about this whole issue is the semi-clinical point of view of "stopping an assailant" when what you're doing is shooting another human being. Regardless of whether or not it's legally justified, you get to live with what you've done, and I hope with all my heart that no one ever has to find out whether or not they have what it takes to shoot another person and kill him.

You and others keep referencing the loss of life as some sacred entity. To me, your argument reads like this; "the sanctity of the assailant's lfe is worth more than the life of the victim". I adamantly disagree. The assailant's life would not be in jeopardy unless they decide to place it there. It is a choice issue on the part of the assailant and a choice issue on the part of the victim to defend themselves. If you or anyone else decides that defending yourself is so against what you believe in - that's fine with me. Ther are lots of people who would rather be victimized than hurt another person. I'm Ok with that for you. Just don't force your decision to be a victim on me and mine. I'm not forcing you to arm yourself. Don't force me to be disarmed.

08/17/2012 03:18:31 PM · #704

Use your heads guys.

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 28-300mm f3.5-5.6G ED VR

08/17/2012 03:19:08 PM · #705

Originally posted by jagar:

Use your heads guys.

heh... :)

NikonJeb

Nikon D850

08/17/2012 03:22:23 PM · #706

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by Flash:

No, you haven't once remotely explained the similarities between using a gun and a fire extinguisher that substantiate your point. I am *not* adamant about the tool, which you seem to fail to grasp. I am trying, obviously uselessly, to get the point across that shooting someone with the intent of stopping them, either fatally or not, is *quite* a different technique than using a fire extinguisher to get away from a fire.

The actions are not remotely similar.

Message edited by author 2012-08-17 15:26:01.

NikonJeb

Nikon D850

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 28-300mm f3.5-5.6G ED VR

08/17/2012 03:25:16 PM · #707

Originally posted by Flash:

You're exactly the sort of person it scares me to think about with a weapon. You really don't seem to have much regard for human life other than your own.

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 28-300mm f3.5-5.6G ED VR

08/17/2012 03:29:36 PM · #708

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by Flash:
You and others keep referencing the loss of life as some sacred entity. To me, your argument reads like this; "the sanctity of the assailant's lfe is worth more than the life of the victim". I adamantly disagree. The assailant's life would not be in jeopardy unless they decide to place it there. It is a choice issue on the part of the assailant and a choice issue on the part of the victim to defend themselves. If you or anyone else decides that defending yourself is so against what you believe in - that's fine with me. Ther are lots of people who would rather be victimized than hurt another person. I'm Ok with that for you. Just don't force your decision to be a victim on me and mine. I'm not forcing you to arm yourself. Don't force me to be disarmed.

You're exactly the sort of person it scares me to think about with a weapon. You really don't seem to have much regard for human life other than your own.

o_O

Don't understand why you say that Jeb... Seems to me that he's well informed and knows exactly when he can deploy his weapon lawfully.

I understand that you don't want to see anybody killed, but his scenario was a him or me sort of situation, do you really only want people who are going to allow themselves to be killed to have weapons? Seems a fine way to supply criminals with guns if you ask me.

NikonJeb

Nikon D850

08/17/2012 03:39:26 PM · #709

Originally posted by Cory:

I understand that you don't want to see anybody killed, but his scenario was a him or me sort of situation, do you really only want people who are going to allow themselves to be killed to have weapons? Seems a fine way to supply criminals with guns if you ask me.

It just seems that he's all too willing to use his firearm(s). I consider them more as a last resort, and like I said earlier, I'm very unlikely to put myself in a position where I'd need one, so I don't choose to own any. I don't hunt, but I'll eat your venison if you ask me over to dinner. I'm just really not all that comfortable with guns whose purpose is fundamentally to be used against humans. I don't want to get shot any more than anyone else, but I also don't necessarily feel that owning a gun on the off chance that I *might* need to defend myself is an answer.

I guess one of the biggest issues I have is that from what I can glean, most of not all of the people involved with this site are pretty likely to be able to say the same thing, so most of this discussion is pretty rhetorical anyway.

I just wonder if the majority of gun owners are really prepared for the consequences of taking another's life........it's one thing to state that you would, quite another to draw down on someone and pull the trigger.

08/17/2012 03:59:36 PM · #710

All these external violent methods against imaginary thugs got me thinking, why don't we just.....

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

08/17/2012 04:03:05 PM · #711

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by Cory:
I understand that you don't want to see anybody killed, but his scenario was a him or me sort of situation, do you really only want people who are going to allow themselves to be killed to have weapons? Seems a fine way to supply criminals with guns if you ask me.

It just seems that he's all too willing to use his firearm(s). I consider them more as a last resort, and like I said earlier, I'm very unlikely to put myself in a position where I'd need one, so I don't choose to own any. I don't hunt, but I'll eat your venison if you ask me over to dinner. I'm just really not all that comfortable with guns whose purpose is fundamentally to be used against humans. I don't want to get shot any more than anyone else, but I also don't necessarily feel that owning a gun on the off chance that I *might* need to defend myself is an answer.

I guess one of the biggest issues I have is that from what I can glean, most of not all of the people involved with this site are pretty likely to be able to say the same thing, so most of this discussion is pretty rhetorical anyway.

I just wonder if the majority of gun owners are really prepared for the consequences of taking another's life........it's one thing to state that you would, quite another to draw down on someone and pull the trigger.

I can only think of two people who's lives I value above my own.

Message edited by author 2012-08-18 13:28:28.

BrennanOB

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

08/17/2012 05:48:21 PM · #712

I got an interesting e-mail about Mayors against illegal guns latest push to tighten up reporting of the mentally disturbed to the the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS).

Frankly I don't have a problem with people owning guns, as long as they are smart about how they store and keep their weapons, but the fact that states are so bad about keeping the mentally unhinged from being able to access weapons is pathetic. If we have an absolute reporting that keeps anyone who has suffered an epileptic seizure in the last half year from being able to drive a car, why can't we keep diagnosed crazy people from buying a gun?

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

08/17/2012 05:56:10 PM · #713

Flash

Nikon D700

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 17-35mm f/2.8D IF-ED

08/18/2012 09:30:52 AM · #714

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

You are totally clueless. Have you read my posts? Have you read my training history? Have you read my detailed review regarding the Judiscious Use of Force? Have you googled In the Gravest Extreme or ordered the book I suggested? Have you considered the detailed reasons for ammunition selection and why it is the better choice? Have you evaluated the multiple layers in the the escalation of force and the numerous steps required before deadly force is authorized? Did you read about the color code system and perhaps do a comparison between the white, yellow, orange, red and my avatar? Did you understand the post regarding the responsibility to call 911 for medical attention for the injured assailant? Have you even been paying attention in this thread? You write that gunowners should have training. I have had lots. You write that gun owners should keep their firearms secure. I do. You write that firearms owners should pass background checks. I have - multiple times with my fingerprints on file. For christ's sake - I'm your poster boy of everything you write that you want gunowners to be - and I'm the one who scares you. Pathetic.

I understand that you are not comfortable with firearms. Many people aren't. So don't have any.

You keep writing about the lack of consideration I have for human life. It is you who has it backwards. You place more value on the asailant's life than the victims. That is just plain wrong. The assailant's life is safe as long as they don't do any assailing. Their choice. Period. I value all life including mine and those under my care. And if you choose to make a poor choice and assault me or mine, then I will stop you - and then call 911 to get you medical help to save your life. Doesn't read to me like a lack of compassion for human life.

David Ey

Nikon D80

Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f2.8D

08/18/2012 10:07:58 AM · #715

10+

Mike

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Tamron SP 24-70mm f/2.8 Di VC USD Canon Mount

08/18/2012 10:22:40 AM · #716

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

You're exactly the sort of person it scares me to think about with a weapon. You really don't seem to have much regard for human life other than your own.

I have to defend Flash here, that statement is way out of line.

its not that Flash has no regard for human life, just that he isn't giving value to someone who disregards his. he is merely treating an assailant not as a person but as a threat, not doing so devalues his own life. if a bear was attacking you, would you stop and value its life as a creation of god before you shot and killed it? of course not, you protect yourself. whether or not you do that protecting with a gun or a screwdriver isn't the point.

also thanks for the discussion on hollow points, between this and the other thread im not as ignorant as I was yesterday.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

08/18/2012 01:29:41 PM · #717

Originally posted by Flash:

... I'm your poster boy of everything you write that you want gunowners to be - and I'm the one who scares you.

What "scares" me is the faith you have that everyone who acquires firearms will voluntarily believe and behave as you do.

There's something like 300 million guns un the US. There are about 4 million NRA members ... even if they each own ten guns that leaves about 260 million guns in the hands of those who do not necessarily subscribe to your philosophy.

08/18/2012 01:29:49 PM · #718

Originally posted by mike_311:

also thanks for the discussion on hollow points, between this and the other thread im not as ignorant as I was yesterday.

<3

Why can't more people have this attitude?

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

08/18/2012 01:31:29 PM · #719

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Flash:
... I'm your poster boy of everything you write that you want gunowners to be - and I'm the one who scares you.

What "scares" me is the faith you have that everyone who acquires firearms will voluntarily believe and behave as you do.

There's something like 300 million guns un the US. There are about 4 million NRA members ... even if they each own ten guns that leaves about 260 million guns in the hands of those who do not necessarily subscribe to your philosophy.

And that's why there should be more people encouraged to own a gun, responsibly, rather than trying to ban them... You've got to be able to see this.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

08/18/2012 01:51:50 PM · #720

Originally posted by Cory:

And that's why there should be more people encouraged to own a gun, responsibly, rather than trying to ban them... You've got to be able to see this.

I don't think I've ever stated that guns should be banned outright, though there are certain weapons I don't think belong in the hands of the general public. I am in favor of more effective registration/regulation/limitation/whatever, as clearly the current non-system is markedly ineffective and subject to abuse and evasion.

Note that the second and third words of the Second Amendment are "well-regulated" -- if you want to take an "originalist" point of view of the Constitution you have to include that part too. And does anyone really think the framers would have written that Amendment exactly they same way had they known of the AK-47 rather than only flintlock rifles?

FWIW I have shot a rifle in the past, on a target range and once at an isolated beach where it seemed safe. I have no problem with people using guns to hunt for food (not "trophies" though) or with target-shooting for recreation.

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

08/18/2012 05:45:20 PM · #721

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Flash:
... I'm your poster boy of everything you write that you want gunowners to be - and I'm the one who scares you.

What "scares" me is the faith you have that everyone who acquires firearms will voluntarily believe and behave as you do.

There's something like 300 million guns un the US. There are about 4 million NRA members ... even if they each own ten guns that leaves about 260 million guns in the hands of those who do not necessarily subscribe to your philosophy.

And that's why there should be more people encouraged to own a gun, responsibly, rather than trying to ban them... You've got to be able to see this.

I would tend to disagree with this premise. I am all in favour of people being informed, trained and learning to respect for firearms, but there exists a quantum leap between that and gun ownership.

I have seen individuals that I believed to be capable,competent, level headed, well trained and responsible behave in a manner that defies logic when dealing with firearms. Would you believe grown men playing "quick draw McGraw" in the hallway of their apartment with loaded guns no less.

Yes I fully appreciate that this is anecdotal, but it did happen nonetheless.

I have over the years handled a great variety of guns and know how to use them and truth be told, in most confrontational situations, I much favoured my chances when NOT armed. Silly you say,go back and read some of the comments made by

Flash a few pages back and you may understand why.

My two cents.

Ray

cowboy221977

Canon EOS-60D

Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM

08/18/2012 09:34:56 PM · #722

I found an ak-47 for sale here in my town...My last purchase fell through (a Japanese Arisoka)...This ak is a beautiful firearm...It is a semi-auto...wood stock...7.62x39....beautiful weapon

Art Roflmao

Canon EOS-6D Mark II

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

08/19/2012 06:01:54 AM · #723

Woman forced to shoot intruder to protect herself and children